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Author Topic: Collection of 18.509 found and used Brainwallets  (Read 30947 times)
Cricktor
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August 07, 2022, 09:56:08 AM
 #241

So true. It's rare to see such large amounts get likely lost to those "snatchers". On 2022-07-27 some (not so smart) entity sent 0.9BTC to the "empty string" brainwallet in block 746835 (tx 37e166a1e52e96bcfe535738082e328ef8db56aafd6945d9cad6f2afdb34b4a4) which was very likely claimed by some of those bots who constantly monitor mempool transactions for such brainwallet transactions.

Seriously, how stupid is someone to use SHA256("") or SHA256 of any publicly available data, block hashes included, as private key and believe this is in any way "smart"?

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August 07, 2022, 01:43:06 PM
 #242

Seriously, how stupid is someone to use SHA256("")

More likely to be a programming error. I recall suggesting a few years ago in this thread that something like (pseudoish code) assert(key != 0xe3b0c44298fc1c149afbf4c8996fb92427ae41e4649b934ca495991b7852b855) would have avoided this particular issue.
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August 07, 2022, 03:33:39 PM
 #243

I came across my simple mini key generator tonight, and I'm having another play with it.

The naive version uses random() and outputs about 8000 valid keys per second on a single core of an i7-3960X.
I did that for a while a couple of years back (with a python generator), trying to create vanity addresses with mini private key, but I had to search through large output files and the output was far too slow to find anything meaningful.

One thing is sure in my opinion - brain wallets belongs to past.
I'm pretty sure people still use them. Even better if they use something they use much heavier encryption (such as WarpWallet).
The idea of simply remembering your money is appealing to me (but I don't dare risk it for a large amount).

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August 07, 2022, 04:06:54 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #244

I'm pretty sure people still use them. Even better if they use something they use much heavier encryption (such as WarpWallet).
The idea of simply remembering your money is appealing to me (but I don't dare risk it for a large amount).
What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure? We all know that just hashing a subjectively difficult passphrase isn't as much secure as it is to generate an entropy randomly. There wouldn't be such thread if brain wallet users hashed more than once, because, apparently, some passphrases aren't as strong as they thought.

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August 07, 2022, 04:37:01 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #245

What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure?
It has to do with the time consumption. When the user enters a password they want to get their address as soon as possible, if you increase the number of hashes it would consume more time hence ruins user experience. And considering that brainwallets that I've seen are browser based they are even more limited to the amount of computing power they can use so the process could be even slower than it could be.

Besides, brainwallets aren't serious projects and weren't designed for security at first. Some tried to replace SHA256 with stronger algorithms such as scrypt but such projects don't gain any popularity since the idea of brainwallet itself is flawed.

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August 07, 2022, 04:40:00 PM
Merited by LoyceV (8)
 #246

What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure? We all know that just hashing a subjectively difficult passphrase isn't as much secure as it is to generate an entropy randomly. There wouldn't be such thread if brain wallet users hashed more than once, because, apparently, some passphrases aren't as strong as they thought.

Because it is not kind of "standard". If at this moment you have an idea to create a new wallet using a given phrase, you have software to do it quickly. I am not aware of any program which would accept other parameters, like number of iterations.
We may imagine that you want to launch hash function 20220807 times - and even if you forget that number but you remember period of time when the wallet was created, there is still way to restore it.

Seriously, how stupid is someone to use SHA256("") or SHA256 of any publicly available data, block hashes included, as private key and believe this is in any way "smart"?

Honestly speaking, I have asked Loyce to prepare list of tx ids and launched search on that. The result is surprising! (I mean it is surprising how many wallets were using that method). Each of that values generates address which was used in the past.
Code:
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7f3af92c4d68d43530a2459f6db43fcb5873d9b53bbb27f79c9783cce5e27957
85035189f50b184e56d15ae1059af2d62b4a555a58dc5ded5a43b9c6668ff185
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e98e2a7c524ecf1dafc4e3eef9923233cb0b87d7c7b09dbfb598e564d2174014
fa107a3f9eb74b7c096ed1b67049171e17a1236fee62639941bbcdfb590f7ea9
498482fa9815bfc30830dcde2eaa3380eb31ca8c07a21d3e79db7d0d18b3cf07
52404b9c5d7fc487ed3f0e49d2c37d06e06b9cfeb10f9660d4b8099e5c1a9cac
f1599a1ced833d95a54aa38a1a64113d5f0a4db3cb613ef761180cab57155699
5391977978bb9c5fee3934bed2e8c891d7c732ad7d70dc2e0c922b6c0f62344a
dd8148a28955a7753548e34b0e729c56ea96d73592aafaf4e46a61307c36a6b9

It was my try to solve Lauda Memorial Puzzle, as "All of the information required to reconstruct the private key is published on the blockchain". But it was not as easy ;-)


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August 07, 2022, 06:13:43 PM
 #247

~ as "All of the information required to reconstruct the private key is published on the blockchain". But it was not as easy ;-)

Maybe also valid for Satoshi's mined blocks?

~
We can visualize with the blockchain data, how satoshi Mine his coins:

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August 07, 2022, 09:07:38 PM
 #248

Seriously, how stupid is someone to use SHA256("")

More likely to be a programming error. I recall suggesting a few years ago in this thread that something like (pseudoish code) assert(key != 0xe3b0c44298fc1c149afbf4c8996fb92427ae41e4649b934ca495991b7852b855) would have avoided this particular issue.

Maybe a few of them might have been some programming errors, but I doubt that for the majority of funding transactions for this private key. Many are probing or dusting, but why should there be such a lot of wacky programming?
About the half of the total transactions are funding, the other half is stealing the coins as of now, today. Ridiculous game...

Public addressNumber of Tx Private key type
1HZwkjkeaoZfTSaJxDw6aKkxp45agDiEzN
717
uncompressed
1F3sAm6ZtwLAUnj7d38pGFxtP3RVEvtsbV
129
compressed
3DnW8JGpPViEZdpqat8qky1zc26EKbXnmM
14
compressed
bc1qngw83fg8dz0k749cg7k3emc7v98wy0c74dlrkd
6
compressed


Maybe also valid for Satoshi's mined blocks?
Who knows, Satoshi was smarter than many. I doubt he used some deterministic way to compute his used private keys. But I can only guess wildly...

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BlackHatCoiner
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August 07, 2022, 09:22:34 PM
 #249

It has to do with the time consumption.
Sure, you don't want to wait for 10-15 minutes? Wait a few seconds to do a few thousands hashes. You can't seriously trade security for a few seconds.

And considering that brainwallets that I've seen are browser based they are even more limited to the amount of computing power they can use so the process could be even slower than it could be.
Browser-based wallets are generally 🚩🚩🚩

Some tried to replace SHA256 with stronger algorithms such as scrypt but such projects don't gain any popularity since the idea of brainwallet itself is flawed.
It's outdated currently that we have standards such as BIP39, but it might wasn't a bad idea to create a secure brainwallet if the other choice was to keep a wallet.dat secure.

We may imagine that you want to launch hash function 20220807 times - and even if you forget that number but you remember period of time when the wallet was created, there is still way to restore it.
If you remember the passphrase, there's no problem. Just hash the hash, until you find the proper hash.

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PrimeNumber7
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August 07, 2022, 09:24:55 PM
 #250

I'm pretty sure people still use them. Even better if they use something they use much heavier encryption (such as WarpWallet).
The idea of simply remembering your money is appealing to me (but I don't dare risk it for a large amount).
What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure? We all know that just hashing a subjectively difficult passphrase isn't as much secure as it is to generate an entropy randomly. There wouldn't be such thread if brain wallet users hashed more than once, because, apparently, some passphrases aren't as strong as they thought.
Dont do this. Hashing a pass phrase will not result in additional entropy. If an adversary were to know that you hashed a brain wallet pass phrase, they could do the same to brain wallet candidate pass phrases they believe you are likely to use.
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August 07, 2022, 09:38:02 PM
 #251

Dont do this. Hashing a pass phrase will not result in additional entropy. If an adversary were to know that you hashed a brain wallet pass phrase, they could do the same to brain wallet candidate pass phrases they believe you are likely to use.
It does the same harm it does for an attacker to know that my password is 18 characters long. It lowers my security, but it's infeasible to break it if chosen properly. Same happens with more hashes; if an adversary knew that I'm hashing a million times, he'd need a million times his computational power to do the same work.

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August 07, 2022, 09:54:29 PM
 #252

Dont do this. Hashing a pass phrase will not result in additional entropy. If an adversary were to know that you hashed a brain wallet pass phrase, they could do the same to brain wallet candidate pass phrases they believe you are likely to use.
It does the same harm it does for an attacker to know that my password is 18 characters long. It lowers my security, but it's infeasible to break it if chosen properly. Same happens with more hashes; if an adversary knew that I'm hashing a million times, he'd need a million times his computational power to do the same work.
The scope of realistic brain wallets is very small when compared to all potential private keys. Requiring an adversary to do a million times more work might sound like a lot, but compared to all potential private keys, it really is not.
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August 08, 2022, 02:45:08 AM
 #253

Hi,

As been discussed many times before using a Brainwallet is a bad idea. I ran some test myself and found 18.509 BTC-addresses based on a brainwallet which also has been used in the blockchain before.

I tried to compare my results with the results of other researchers but could not find any lists online at all. I found some examples but not a comprehensive list. So I published my own results over here: https://eli5.eu/brainwallet

Please note: all published addresses have a balance of 0 so this is not a list for robbers Smiley. There are also a lot of extra datasets I haven't used this far so I expect the numbers to go up once I use them as well (I'm in the middle of perfecting my own tooling and blockchain parser so this will take some more time first).

I love to get some feedback and if you have results to share which I missed in this round I'm more than happy to hear from you and include them.

TA

ahahaha wow so whats the public address ?

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August 08, 2022, 02:54:21 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), ABCbits (1), PrimeNumber7 (1), Charles-Tim (1)
 #254

It's outdated currently that we have standards such as BIP39, but it might wasn't a bad idea to create a secure brainwallet if the other choice was to keep a wallet.dat secure.
These two are not comparable though and BIP39 wasn't a replacement. That's because the brainwallet is a "human memorizable string" while BIP39 is a "human readable string", or in other words you are not supposed to memorize your mnemonic but you are supposed to memorize your brainwallet.

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August 08, 2022, 05:56:46 AM
Last edit: August 08, 2022, 08:30:01 AM by LoyceV
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #255

I'm pretty sure people still use them. Even better if they use something they use much heavier encryption (such as WarpWallet).
The idea of simply remembering your money is appealing to me (but I don't dare risk it for a large amount).
What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure?
I'm pretty sure some people do that. And I'm pretty sure some others are searching for it too.

But isn't that what WarpWallet was created for? 524,288 times scrypt, followed by 65,536 times pbkdf2. A simple manual "brute-force" tells me that "satoshi" was used to deposit 0.0003 BTC in 2015. It wasn't moved out instantly (only after 7 blocks).
If you use a decent password, and your email as salt, it's much more secure than regular brainwallets. My own (very inaccurate) estimate: a million times more secure because of the heavy encryption, and another factor one million because of the email address that makes it impossible to brute-force everyone's wallet at once.

Honestly speaking, I have asked Loyce to prepare list of tx ids and launched search on that. The result is surprising! (I mean it is surprising how many wallets were using that method). Each of that values generates address which was used in the past.
The first one I checked lost 7.72 BTC in 2014 (back then valued at almost $3k).

The scope of realistic brain wallets is very small when compared to all potential private keys. Requiring an adversary to do a million times more work might sound like a lot, but compared to all potential private keys, it really is not.
If you're the only one who uses 1,276,816 rounds of hashing, the number of potential wallets that can be found is limited to only your wallets, versus many different wallets that all use only one round.

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PrimeNumber7
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August 08, 2022, 07:42:53 AM
 #256

I'm pretty sure people still use them. Even better if they use something they use much heavier encryption (such as WarpWallet).
The idea of simply remembering your money is appealing to me (but I don't dare risk it for a large amount).
What I don't understand is why don't they use the hash function millions of times to make their brain wallet even more secure?
I'm pretty sure some people do that. And I'm pretty sure some others are searching for it too.

But isn't that what WarpWallet was created for? 524,288 times scrypt, followed by 65,536 times pbkdf2. A simple manual "brute-force" tells me that "satoshi" was used to deposit 0.0003 BTC in 2015. It wasn't moved out instantly (only after 7 blocks).
<>

The scope of realistic brain wallets is very small when compared to all potential private keys. Requiring an adversary to do a million times more work might sound like a lot, but compared to all potential private keys, it really is not.
If you're the only one who uses 1,276,816 rounds of hashing, the number of potential wallets that can be found is limited to only your wallets, versus many different wallets that all use only one round.
How is someone supposed to remember the exact number of hashing rounds? I think in both the WarpWallet and your proposed ~1.2 million rounds of hashing implementations, you will need to either document the rounds of hashing,  or rely on a third party to help calculate the private key, and I don't think this meets the definition of a brain wallet.
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August 08, 2022, 07:55:20 AM
 #257

How is someone supposed to remember the exact number of hashing rounds? I think in both the WarpWallet and your proposed ~1.2 million rounds of hashing implementations, you will need to either document the rounds of hashing,  or rely on a third party to help calculate the private key, and I don't think this meets the definition of a brain wallet.
With WarpWallet you can (and should!) keep your own offline copy.
If you're going for a "weird" number of hashing rounds, I can think of many ways to remember the number. It could be your phone number or full date of birth. Or just something you remember. Worst-case, if you forget the exact number, you can still brute-force it yourself given that you know the pass phrase.

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August 08, 2022, 07:56:15 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #258

How is someone supposed to remember the exact number of hashing rounds? I think in both the WarpWallet and your proposed ~1.2 million rounds of hashing implementations, you will need to either document the rounds of hashing,  or rely on a third party to help calculate the private key, and I don't think this meets the definition of a brain wallet.

Talking about definition - there is no strict definition. The idea is that you "remember" how to produce private key. Somehow (I do not know why and how) single iteration of sha256 became "a standard". You may use other hash algorithm (eth & keccak), you may use other number of iterations, you may use any other way you want - as long as you remember what to do, it could be still a "brain wallet" (the question is if you remember your 12/24 words seed, is it brain wallet or not, theoretically yes).
The more additional steps you use or need to perform, it complicates thing and make it easier to forget. About number of iterations - you may use date, like I proposed few posts ago. Then you may know that number of possible iterations was for example between 20210101 and 20221231. But then we go to another point - are you able to restore your private key quickly? With single iteration of sha256 - probably yes. With more complicated scenarios - you will probably need your own dedicated program.
Of course we may think about many many possible ways to "remember" private key. Even the ways which allows you to restore that using just a piece of paper and pencil - for example, you take your name, dog's name, email address, phone number etc, take letters as a numbers (a=1, b=2, whatever) and then use modulo 16 to produce hex string. Is it possible? yes. The question is if it is safe - I would say it is probably safer than typical sha256 brainwallet from common phrase, because it is very custom method and there is no automated attack for that (yet).
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August 08, 2022, 08:49:32 AM
Merited by pooya87 (1)
 #259

These two are not comparable though and BIP39 wasn't a replacement.
It wasn't a replacement, but an even better proposal. Yes, you don't memorize seed phrases, but write them down. But: If you told me to choose between brain wallets and securing a wallet.dat file, which is how things worked before BIP39, I'd go with the former.

I'm pretty sure some people do that. And I'm pretty sure some others are searching for it too.
Hadn't found the choice from popular brain wallets such as: https://brainwalletx.github.io/.

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August 08, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (4), vapourminer (3), pooya87 (2), ABCbits (1)
 #260

An arbitrary number of SHA-256 rounds for your brainwallet secret is still security by obscurity for me. If your to be memorized secret is "bad" or publicly available anywhere you trust that no attacker tries to check multiple SHA-256 rounds. I wouldn't bet that no one is going to try this.

Brain wallets have in many cases proven to be a terrible idea, because those who failed and were cracked had initially bad or worse secrets. Your initial secret must already be complex and good enough to withstand even heavy possible cracking in the first place. If it isn't, don't use a brainwallet. Yes, a high number of hashing rounds do delay an attacker, I don't dismiss this. It still leaves the risk open to crack a brainwallet, especially with a poorly chosen initial secret.

And don't forget (haha, what a coincidence) that the human memory is a fragile thing. It's easy to forget something if you don't repeat it regularly. It's easy to become ill or injured and forget more than you can imagine. To verify you memorized something complex enough, you should have it properly written down. Then it doesn't make much sense to me to memorize it anymore and I could skip the whole brainwallet thing alltogether.

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