SC Releases his 'white paper', hilarity ensues

[coblee]

I just find amusing that almost nobody liked when the goons came to tell us that bitcoin is a big scam, and now we have this...

Why do you think that is? Maybe because we actually think solidcoin IS a scam and bitcoin is not.

Yes, you think... The goons also THINK! Now, which one thinks the right thing, care to say?

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here...

[1714052519]

1714052519

[BitterTea]

Furthermore it's not like deepbit makes "that much money" doing what they do, they take a small percentage and give most to its users. There is certainly more in it for them in the medium term to take millions of dollars.

Do you even understand the threat of a 51% attack? How can they "take millions of dollars"? Please elaborate.

[johnj]

Which makes this a very ironic statement. Since at this very moment, people are camping in the streets protesting the anonymous rich! I dare you to go down to wall street and tell everyone, "Those with the most money should be in charge of your security!"

Well I understand your view. However being "anti bank" and "anti system" my hope is that similar people rise to power within the SC network. Not the traditional "rich types" if you know what I mean. Since we are starting fresh and most people with money couldn't care less right now we have a good chance of that happening I think. You have people who can create SolidCoin businesses and compete with the bigger businesses who are afraid of such things.

I want SolidCoin to defeat the current system, destroy the banks, and have something that everyone can use rather cheaply around the world. Mixed with something like precious metals for currency when "real life" doesn't have the internet.

The ideal people who rise to power and have the most SC will hopefully be those type of people too, and hopefully the world may become a better place to live without so much emphasis on greed.

Your attempt to switch-gears is noted again. The traditional "rich types" that you talk about is what you've modeled SC around:

This is correct, think of trusted nodes spending money to protect their investment, just like rich people do in real life with safes, etc.

The OWS movement isn't 'anti bank'.  It's anti-government-aided-corporate-corruption.  And any 'system' talked about has to do with government - how in the heck is SC an attempt to 'defeat the current system'?

"without so much emphasis on greed"... SC 2.0 is focused on greed.  13m premined, 12m distributed to your 'best friends', of which you eventually gain sole control over all the premined?

This is a scam, with your personal greed as the engine.

[freequant]

Hey BitcoinExpress, have you heard?
Make this EC2 farm run a bit longer until you are sure you collected 1.2M+ coins, and the whole network will be relying entirely on your good will.
No need to attack it. Isn't it sweet?

Let's make a cartel of coin holders, and use our power to double spend at will.

[Red]

Well I understand your view. However being "anti bank" and "anti system" my hope is that similar people rise to power within the SC network. Not the traditional "rich types" if you know what I mean. Since we are starting fresh and most people with money couldn't care less right now we have a good chance of that happening I think. You have people who can create SolidCoin businesses and compete with the bigger businesses who are afraid of such things.

I want SolidCoin to defeat the current system, destroy the banks, and have something that everyone can use rather cheaply around the world. Mixed with something like precious metals for currency when "real life" doesn't have the internet.

The ideal people who rise to power and have the most SC will hopefully be those type of people too, and hopefully the world may become a better place to live without so much emphasis on greed.

I guess I'm just cynical. I think the only thing that makes rich people different from me is...

...they have more money.

[coblee]

Hey BitcoinExpress, have you heard?
Make this EC2 farm run a bit longer until you are sure you collected 1.2M+ coins, and the whole network will be relying entirely on your good will.
No need to attack it. Isn't it sweet?

Let's make a cartel of coin holders, and use our power to double spend at will.

He probably already has half a mil. I can't wait when he becomes a "trusted" node. But CoinHunter probably has code in there that says a million coin owner only becomes trusted when he (CoinHunter) says so.

Looking forward to the source code...

[freequant]

I wonder who those people might be!   You're so transparent  

Do you know the deepbit (owners) ? If you want to talk about centralization let's look at how one group has nearly 50% control of BTC network.

That is more centralization than 10x trusted accounts equally having control (for now).

Exactly. Anyone who believes BTC is decentralized is an idiot. Gavin, MtGox, Deepbit, "the manipulator" etc. pull all the shots in this closed system.

CH, don't tell me you gave an account to this phony troll.
That would be the most hilarious thing I have ever heard.

[Syke]

Looking forward to the source code...

Don't hold your breath. I wouldn't be surprised if the source was withheld for the sake of "security".

[CoinHunter]

The OWS movement isn't 'anti bank'.  It's anti-government-aided-corporate-corruption.  And any 'system' talked about has to do with government - how in the heck is SC an attempt to 'defeat the current system'?

"without so much emphasis on greed"... SC 2.0 is focused on greed.  13m premined, 12m distributed to your 'best friends', of which you eventually gain sole control over all the premined?

This is a scam, with your personal greed as the engine.

Do you sign off every SolidCoin message with "it's a scam" . Haha.

10 accounts were created with 1.2 million. That's 12 million total generated. However once those accounts go under 1 million they can no longer be used, so it's like a "dead one million" until life is brought back into them (donations, cpf, or whatever).

Some people take a while to develop trust in something, it's why I don't mind that you think it's a scam johnj . But you'll be made out the fool as the weeks/months/years go on and everyone else is jumping onboard whilst you sit there on your "I still think it's a scam" pedestal. You have too much ego involved in this decision, and you won't back down on it now I'm guessing.

The type of personality you and a few others have here is quite stubborn in nature, mistrust of others combined with a false sense of pride. I don't expect you to stop educating people about your beliefs but yeah, hopefully you'll do it in a better manner going forward and not have to rely on lies and whatnot to pass on your beliefs.

[Raoul Duke]

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here...

Re-read my post. I edited it so the persons with slower brains can understand what i said.

But I'll resume it here anyway: What you think is the truth about Solidcoin or Bitcoin is just your opinion, and several other people around the world agree or disagree with you, so tell me again, what are you guys trying to achieve with this shit?

If you are not willing to change your opinion about things you take as facts, altho they are just your opinion, why should others change theirs?

The folowing applies:

[CoinHunter]

Hey BitcoinExpress, have you heard?
Make this EC2 farm run a bit longer until you are sure you collected 1.2M+ coins, and the whole network will be relying entirely on your good will.
No need to attack it. Isn't it sweet?

Let's make a cartel of coin holders, and use our power to double spend at will.

He probably already has half a mil. I can't wait when he becomes a "trusted" node. But CoinHunter probably has code in there that says a million coin owner only becomes trusted when he (CoinHunter) says so.

Looking forward to the source code...

You probably don't care what I say, even though I'm the developer and have quite the SC connections (obviously).

I can gaurantee you that bitcoinexpress is lying about his SC holdings because of the people who have told me what they made mining on the first day. All the biggest miners I know of made more than 60% of it. Leaving the smaller miners to take their share and then possibly whatever this guy thinks he got.

He doesn't have a significant holding of SC, ask him to prove it and he'll be unable to. Simply ask him to move SC around on the network so we can see it's under his control. Won't happen, like I've said.

[Deprived]

Well there's a few obvious questions that spring to mind from it:

1.  How does the network "know" that a node has more than 1 million SCs in a wallet?  Are all generated blocks somehow signed with the address of the largest wallet you own?
2.  How are these wallets with the 1 million coins not able to be used for transactions?  Are we suppsoed to just take SC's word for it - or is there some special functionailty about those accounts?
3.  With any reasonable answers to the above two questions it seems likely to me that the same could have been achieved without pre-genning the 1 mill coins in the wallet.  IF those 'special' accounts ARE somehow different to normal ones then surely the test could be that EITHER the node must hold 1 million coins OR it must own one of the special wallets (without them needing to actually hold 1 million coins).

Doubt we'll get straight answers to the above - but:

A.  If the answer to 2 is "we have to take his word" then obviously his white-paper is intentionally misleading due to him claiming the money "can't" be used rather than that he "won't" use it.
B.  If the answer to 2 is that those accounts are in some way different to other accounts then obviously it follows that there was no need to generate the coins - the special 'status' of those accounts could have been detected instead.  And any such special status HAS to be detectable - or the network wouldn't be able to tell to disallow any attempts to use the content of them.

If he's either lied about the status of those accounts OR has generated millions of coins where there's no reason to (unles he wants to pump and dump with them ofc) then seems like it's just a get rich quick scheme at the exense of anyone gullible enough to buy SC2s (though I find it hard to have any sympathy for anyone that stupid).

Bumping this on the (very) unlikely chance that he overlooked what (I believe to be) serious questions addressing the very basis of the "trusted nodes" and pre-mined coins.

[johnj]

The OWS movement isn't 'anti bank'.  It's anti-government-aided-corporate-corruption.  And any 'system' talked about has to do with government - how in the heck is SC an attempt to 'defeat the current system'?

"without so much emphasis on greed"... SC 2.0 is focused on greed.  13m premined, 12m distributed to your 'best friends', of which you eventually gain sole control over all the premined?

This is a scam, with your personal greed as the engine.

Do you sign off every SolidCoin message with "it's a scam" . Haha.

10 accounts were created with 1.2 million. That's 12 million total generated. However once those accounts go under 1 million they can no longer be used, so it's like a "dead one million" until life is brought back into them (donations, cpf, or whatever).

Some people take a while to develop trust in something, it's why I don't mind that you think it's a scam johnj . But you'll be made out the fool as the weeks/months/years go on and everyone else is jumping onboard whilst you sit there on your "I still think it's a scam" pedestal. You have too much ego involved in this decision, and you won't back down on it now I'm guessing.

The type of personality you and a few others have here is quite stubborn in nature, mistrust of others combined with a false sense of pride. I don't expect you to stop educating people about your beliefs but yeah, hopefully you'll do it in a better manner going forward and not have to rely on lies and whatnot to pass on your beliefs.

If you have a problem with the scammer accusation, feel free to address the points i've outlined.  So far you defer to Lolcust and Deepbit as your inspiration, while ignoring every pressing question regarding your scam. And now a thinly veiled attempt to get the focus onto my ego (you're one to talk).

On the OP there are several points listed.  Feel free to go through them and demonstrate how they're in error.

The longer you ignore the opportunity to address my (and other peoples) accusations of your consistent deceitful patterns, the more apparent your scam is coming to light.

[Raoul Duke]

Nobody is giving deepbit the benefit of the doubt.  It has less than 50% hashing power.  There is no 49.9% vulnerability.  Even at 50.1% the attack isn't instantaneous.  Most entities require 6 confirmations for this exact reason.  That requires sustaining >50% hashing power for >1 hour AND getting lucky that you solve the next 6 blocks.

Even with 50.1% hashing power the odds deepbit signs the next 6 blocks is ~1.53%.  It is like flipping a coin and getting 6 heads in a row.

Are you sure those numbers are correct? Who audited them? Who tells you that they aren't hiding 10% of their hashrate to give you all the warm feeling of them being trustworthy?

If you guys want to be paranoid, please wear your tinfoilhat at all times, not just when it suits your own personal agendas...

At the end i don't want nobody to be scammed. And like you are warning everybody about solidcoin being a possible scam, you were also all warned that bitcoin is a possible scam by others, yet you all keep insisting on using it(i use it also).

You can keep this dialog with coinhunter for 2 more years and it will lead none of you to nowhere except to more publicity to his solidcoin.
Both parts are stubborn and choose to believe what ever they want to believe.

EDIT: Serious question --> Are you guys just trolling him for the fun of it? If that's so forget all that I said, and... good job!

[CoinHunter]

Well there's a few obvious questions that spring to mind from it:

1.  How does the network "know" that a node has more than 1 million SCs in a wallet?  Are all generated blocks somehow signed with the address of the largest wallet you own?
2.  How are these wallets with the 1 million coins not able to be used for transactions?  Are we suppsoed to just take SC's word for it - or is there some special functionailty about those accounts?
3.  With any reasonable answers to the above two questions it seems likely to me that the same could have been achieved without pre-genning the 1 mill coins in the wallet.  IF those 'special' accounts ARE somehow different to normal ones then surely the test could be that EITHER the node must hold 1 million coins OR it must own one of the special wallets (without them needing to actually hold 1 million coins).

Doubt we'll get straight answers to the above - but:

A.  If the answer to 2 is "we have to take his word" then obviously his white-paper is intentionally misleading due to him claiming the money "can't" be used rather than that he "won't" use it.
B.  If the answer to 2 is that those accounts are in some way different to other accounts then obviously it follows that there was no need to generate the coins - the special 'status' of those accounts could have been detected instead.  And any such special status HAS to be detectable - or the network wouldn't be able to tell to disallow any attempts to use the content of them.

If he's either lied about the status of those accounts OR has generated millions of coins where there's no reason to (unles he wants to pump and dump with them ofc) then seems like it's just a get rich quick scheme at the exense of anyone gullible enough to buy SC2s (though I find it hard to have any sympathy for anyone that stupid).

Bumping this on the (very) unlikely chance that he overlooked what (I believe to be) serious questions addressing the very basis of the "trusted nodes" and pre-mined coins.

Sorry I thought this was a troll as it's obvious.

In answer to 1) the blockchain has a set of rules for creation of money. These rules are well known (generates, and now cpf). No one can create money out of nowhere except under the conditions all the clients accept. It's not one million in a wallet, it's one million in an ADDRESS. So hopefully that clears it up for you.

The source code will verify that all clients will not accept the initial trusted accounts in any normal transaction. I could even show you in a live demonstration by attempting to send it right now and watching your client spit out "block failed trusted fund trying to be spent" in debug.log . You can analyse the EXE to find this string in there now if you want.

In regards to 3) Yes this could have been done in a split system whereby "some licenses" say this guy can create a trusted block. However this is quite limited and doesn't get around the fact these accounts will forever be accepted by clients. I think we should let the initial trust funds go under one million and then become "completely null" once we have some real millionaires.

[coblee]

I can gaurantee you that bitcoinexpress is lying about his SC holdings because of the people who have told me what they made mining on the first day. All the biggest miners I know of made more than 60% of it. Leaving the smaller miners to take their share and then possibly whatever this guy thinks he got.

He doesn't have a significant holding of SC, ask him to prove it and he'll be unable to. Simply ask him to move SC around on the network so we can see it's under his control. Won't happen, like I've said.

So now the biggest miners hold 60% of the coins, eh? I guess throw that fairness right out the window. Weren't we promised that unlike bitcoin, solidcoin distribution will be more fair?

And what's up with you attacking Lolcust for 7.7 mil premine when YOU premined 13 mil? Sure you claimed it's locked up in the code. Where's the source code?

[BitterTea]

I can gaurantee you that bitcoinexpress is lying about his SC holdings because of the people who have told me what they made mining on the first day. All the biggest miners I know of made more than 60% of it. Leaving the smaller miners to take their share and then possibly whatever this guy thinks he got.

He doesn't have a significant holding of SC, ask him to prove it and he'll be unable to. Simply ask him to move SC around on the network so we can see it's under his control. Won't happen, like I've said.

So now the biggest miners hold 60% of the coins, eh? I guess throw that fairness right out the window. Weren't we promised that unlike bitcoin, solidcoin distribution will be more fair?

And what's up with you attacking Lolcust for 7.7 mil premine when YOU premined 13 mil? Sure you claimed it's locked up in the code. Where's the source code?

With no source code available, CH could remove the client's restriction on trusted address spending, get everyone to upgrade, and go to town. Unlike with Bitcoin, users would have no recourse as they can't build their own version with that restriction in place.

[coblee]

I'm not even sure what you are arguing here...

Re-read my post. I edited it so the persons with slower brains can understand what i said.

But I'll resume it here anyway: What you think is the truth about Solidcoin or Bitcoin is just your opinion, and several other people around the world agree or disagree with you, so tell me again, what are you guys trying to achieve with this shit?

If you are not willing to change your opinion about things you take as facts, altho they are just your opinion, why should others change theirs?

Honestly, I've changed opinions about SolidCoin quite a few times. CoinHunter initially seemed was very intelligent and knew what he was doing and created quite an innovate coin. Then I got banned from his IRC channel because I asked one too many questions about some of the technicalities of SolidCoin. I was pissed, but then people convinced me that he was just stressed out from the launch so I gave him another chance. And then the whole solidcoin will destroy bitcoin article, gavin trashtalking, and closing open source happened. And the whole community turned on him except for a select few that I can count on one hand. You guys probably run his trusted nodes.

[freequant]

With the 10% tax, CH is sure that he will always remain the most trusted node on the network.
A nice single point of failure.
He could as well have hardcoded his key in the code. That would have spared everybody a lot of time trying to figure wtf.

CH's home is now the one-stop shop to take over the SolidCoin network.
Terrorists, goverments, mafia, and burglars welcome.
CH, I really hope for you and your family that SC2.0 doesn't end up being a success against the odds.

And for the 9 other (un)lucky guys who got a control account, I am sorry for you.
On top of having a contract on your head, you'll have CH's lawyer on your back if you hand over your private key in an attempt to save your life.
I wouldn't like to be at your position.

But anyway, thanks for doing this experiment.
When you figure out why Satoshi decided to keep a low profile, please make sure to share your experience with the community.

[Bobnova]

(Double spends are nearly impossible even with trust accounts due to manual shutdown on large reorgs).

Kill switches always help trust.  Always.

Also, the banks have a tremendous amount of money, yet they still gambled both their money and our money.
Clearly money alone does not make one trustworthy.