Why do you mine on deepbit?

[Luke-Jr]

With PPS, fee or no fee, you mine at a flat rate.  So if, so called, luck is good you loose if it is bad then you win or least break even.

The law of large numbers means that in the long run, you will never have consistently good "luck" anyway. The only potential gain from non-PPS is short-term good "luck". Also, you don't lose it by using PPS-- you simply don't get paid an unfairly high amount. PPS pays you what is "fair" for each share. Do you complain because blocks only pay 50 BTC, and not more when you're "lucky"?

On a side note Eligius really has some really messy site.

Feel free to improve it. Eligius is a community pool.

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[teukon]

If you like the idea behind PPLNS but dislike the high share-variance inherent to using a small value of N then perhaps consider trying a pool with using the double-geometric method such as eclipsemc.com or yourbtc.net.  Both of these pools have merged mining and 0% fee.

From the eclipsemc.com FAQ: "We are currently employing a modified proportional system with a score based system coming online very shortly." They don't say how that proportional system is modified. And then score-based looks just like Slush.
From the yourbtc.net FAQ: they explain that the value per share decreases progressively over time. That's just like Slush, except that the decay is over a set number of shares instead of a random one. What I like with PPLNS is that shares don't decay, they either count at their full value or don't count at all if we're past N.

Admittedly, I found that yourbtc.net doesn't have as much information on the site about the reward system as I'd have liked.  I cannot speak for eclipsemc.com.  You can often find more information on the forums.  The first page of the main yourbtc.net thread for example links to much more information.  The fact that this thread contains positive posts from respected and knowledgable members of the pool mining community (Inaba and Mein Rosenfeld) is a good sign in my book.

It is true that, when a block is found, more recent shares count for more.  You get a smooth descent rather than a clean drop-off.  I only suggested it because the parameters of the current implementations of DGM are such that they almost correspond to PPLNS with a relatively large value of N.  If the clean drop-off is important to you then DGM is not an option, there are advantages and disadvantages and it largely comes down to a matter of taste.  Personally, I prefer the clean drop-off too and have used PPLNS a lot in the past but I fancied a change and, as far as reward systems go, DGM (with non-trivial parameters) is a close second for me.  Anyway, it was just a thought.  Happy mining!

Note: My choice of reward system and pool is driven primarily by ideology.  If the only options were Proportional, SMPPS, and PPS+10%, I'd mine solo.  I'd happily pay 5% for PPS or 4% for a good PPLNS/DGM pool.

[Luke-Jr]

If the only options were Proportional, SMPPS, and PPS+10%, I'd mine solo.  I'd happily pay 5% for PPS or 4% for a good PPLNS/DGM pool.

You say that as if there were a significant difference between PPS and SMPPS. (there isn't)

[os2sam]

I started to mine on deepbit, but quickly realised that there are many pools who pay more and use advanced methods to calculate your reward. Just look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools

Here's another pool comparison link.

http://pastehtml.com/view/awb1vg03r.html

Sam

[os2sam]

With PPS, fee or no fee, you mine at a flat rate.  So if, so called, luck is good you loose if it is bad then you win or least break even.

The law of large numbers means that in the long run, you will never have consistently good "luck" anyway. The only potential gain from non-PPS is short-term good "luck". Also, you don't lose it by using PPS-- you simply don't get paid an unfairly high amount. PPS pays you what is "fair" for each share. Do you complain because blocks only pay 50 BTC, and not more when you're "lucky"?

I have no problem with PPS model/pools.

A person was making a point that it is somehow wrong to use anything but a 0% PPS pool.  I was just trying to explain that PPS is just a flat rate payment.  A proportional type payment varies from round to round according to how many shares were contributed.  There is nothing "wrong" with using either method.

Good Luck just means that your GPU got some hash's in on short blocks so your pay per share is higher.  There's nothing wrong with that.  No I don't complain that there is only 50 BTC pay per block.  But I guess some people do because some pools pay out more than 50 BTC per block.

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.
Sam

[Luke-Jr]

Here's another pool comparison link.

http://pastehtml.com/view/awb1vg03r.html

But horribly wrong/outdated...

[Luke-Jr]

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.

That's the difference between PPS and SMPPS: the latter has a clear plan for not going under in extreme bad luck.

[os2sam]

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.

That's the difference between PPS and SMPPS: the latter has a clear plan for not going under in extreme bad luck.

According to the horribly outdated chart that is what your pool uses, I assume?

What is your reasoning for operating a pool?  For profit? or for some other reason(s)?

Just curious,
Sam

[Luke-Jr]

What is your reasoning for operating a pool?  For profit? or for some other reason(s)?

Everything I do with Bitcoin is for the sole purpose of promoting the Tonal number system.

Edit: and the glory of God first, of course.

[os2sam]

What is your reasoning for operating a pool?  For profit? or for some other reason(s)?

Everything I do with Bitcoin is for the sole purpose of promoting the Tonal number system.

Hmm, OK.  Just picking up after Nystrom I guess.
Have fun with that,
Sam

[teukon]

If the only options were Proportional, SMPPS, and PPS+10%, I'd mine solo.  I'd happily pay 5% for PPS or 4% for a good PPLNS/DGM pool.

You say that as if there were a significant difference between PPS and SMPPS. (there isn't)

As I said, Ideology is the primary motivation in my selecting a pool and/or reward system.  Both 0% PPS and SMPPS pools are doomed to collapse and, therefore, unattractive to me.

Also, there is a significant difference between 0% PPS and SMPPS.

With 0% PPS the risk lies with the pool.  With SMPPS the risk lies with the miners.

From a miner's perspective, a share submitted to a 0% PPS pool has the same value as one submitted to a SMPPS pool with a positive buffer.  However, with a negative buffer, the miner must accept the risk that the pool will never again achieve a positive buffer and that they will never be paid for their work.  When the buffer is just below 0 this risk is small (because there are so many irrational miners) but the further from 0 the buffer goes, the larger the risk.  Even if you owned all of the shares submitted after the buffer became negative and were the only one left at the pool it would be rational to give up on the pool and move to solo mining.  If you don't own all of the risky shares and/or there are other people are still mining with the pool the incentive to hop away is even greater.

[Luke-Jr]

As I said, Ideology is the primary motivation in my selecting a pool and/or reward system.  Both 0% PPS and SMPPS pools are doomed to collapse and, therefore, unattractive to me.

No. You need to review the law of large numbers again.

Also, there is a significant difference between 0% PPS and SMPPS.

With 0% PPS the risk lies with the pool.  With SMPPS the risk lies with the miners.

No, with both systems, the risk lies with the miners. Mere PPS will simply go bankrupt, while SMPPS has a defined rule on survival in such a circumstance. (As a reminder, the only risk is someone cheating by withholding valid blocks.)

However, with a negative buffer, the miner must accept the risk that the pool will never again achieve a positive buffer and that they will never be paid for their work.

No. The law of large numbers means there is no chance the pool will never again break even, so long as it continues to function.

[teukon]

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.

That's the difference between PPS and SMPPS: the latter has a clear plan for not going under in extreme bad luck.

Ok, I'll bite.  What is the plan?

[Luke-Jr]

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.

That's the difference between PPS and SMPPS: the latter has a clear plan for not going under in extreme bad luck.

Ok, I'll bite.  What is the plan?

... it's well documented, too.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I have no problem with PPS model/pools.

A person was making a point that it is somehow wrong to use anything but a 0% PPS pool.  I was just trying to explain that PPS is just a flat rate payment.  A proportional type payment varies from round to round according to how many shares were contributed.  There is nothing "wrong" with using either method.

If you have access to a 0% PPS pool then it is "wrong" (as in stupid) to use a proportional pool.  Pool hoppers will reduce your share of the reward to less than PPS value.  So in the long run (even ignoring the variable payouts) you will earn less.  The only reason to avoid PPS pools is if they have a high fee.  

In the long run you can't earn more than 0% fee PPS unless you are pool hopping.

[teukon]

No. You need to review the law of large numbers again.

Firstly, the issue of arbitrarily long delays in payment is one level more subtle than that described by the weak or strong law of large numbers.

Secondly, It seems to me that you are thinking within a mathematical model of a SMPPS pool.  I put it to you that your model is making one or more very unrealistic assumptions.

... so long as it continues to function.

Here's one such faulty assumption.  One can easily argue that a pyramid scheme is a win for everyone "so long as it continues to function".

[teukon]

How do some pools plan on staying in business?  I prefer to use pools that have a clear and disclosed plan for maintaining sustainability.

That's the difference between PPS and SMPPS: the latter has a clear plan for not going under in extreme bad luck.

Ok, I'll bite.  What is the plan?

... it's well documented, too.

While I have a certain respect for a pool that goes into sufficent detail on it's reward system to include pseudo-code, this page tell me nothing about how the pool intends to stay in business in the long term.  What would you do if practically everyone left the pool and the buffer was large and negative?

[Luke-Jr]

What would you do if practically everyone left the pool and the buffer was large and negative?

It's impossible for the buffer to go negative.

[os2sam]

If you have access to a 0% PPS pool then it is "wrong" (as in stupid) to use a proportional pool.

----snip-----

In the long run you can't earn more than 0% fee PPS unless you are pool hopping.

Doing something wrong=immoral.  Being stupid isn't the same as being immoral.

How does a 0% PPS pool make a profit?  Or stay in business/service?
Sam

[Jack of Diamonds]

I just don't like PPS, pool owner takes away the "risk" of bad (and good!) luck at the cost of a huge fee: I prefer keeping the luck for a much lower fee.

There are 0% PPS pools like abcpool.co which means you have zero risk as well as zero fees.
If you don't mine in such a pool then you either support other models for ideological reasons, or like to earn less money for some masochistic reason.

With PPS, fee or no fee, you mine at a flat rate.  So if, so called, luck is good you loose if it is bad then you win or least break even.

What do you call "ideological reasons"?

You get what you pay for.  There is no such thing as a free ride.
Sam

No, there is no luck in pure PPS. In fact if you look at the site of abcpool.co, there isn't even a round history.
You only get paid for the shares you submit, hence your risk is 0 as you earn the same amount every day.
Your earnings are not based on any blocks being found or not because all earnings come from a private wallet.

Since the site has had a 0% fee for months, it is also the best possible way to mine bitcoins.
Mining at non-0% pure PPS pools is therefore done either out of idiocy, lack of logical capability or for ideological reasons
(supporting a certain pool owner, supporting proportional models, etc.)

P.S. I do realize pool hopping prop. pools and taking advantage of gullible newbies is the most profitable option, but that's not a 'pool model'
that's just taking money from those with limited information on how mining works.