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Author Topic: somebody please just set the minimum price - it's so easy  (Read 5388 times)
acoindr
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October 15, 2011, 07:49:15 PM
 #41

21 million coins at .01 = 210,000 not 2.1M
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alan2here
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October 15, 2011, 09:12:12 PM
 #42

I think Jacque Fresco's idea of a resource based economy could work really well as a way of doing things without money, but it would require just that, a big rethink. Simply phasing out money would never work, unless though progress of technoligy we effectivly get to something like the resource based economy without having to redesign anything.
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October 15, 2011, 09:56:21 PM
 #43

I think Jacque Fresco's idea of a resource based economy could work really well as a way of doing things without money, but it would require just that, a big rethink. Simply phasing out money would never work, unless though progress of technoligy we effectivly get to something like the resource based economy without having to redesign anything.

I suggest to read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". You'll understand that a planned economy will inevitably slide down a slippery slope into totalitarianism. Do you think Pol Pot and Mao started out with the intention to become the most terrible mass murders in human history? Not at all.

It's shocking to see how the economic insecurity of recent times makes people demanding planners. Even on this forum. Bitcoin is all about freedom, is it not?

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zer0
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October 16, 2011, 12:03:32 AM
 #44

Start a new block chain and say it's backed by gold. C-Gold and Pecunix started out with tiny investments and grew from there. Somewhat more stable pricing, at least no pump and dumps straight to $1
repentance
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October 16, 2011, 12:14:28 AM
 #45

Start a new block chain and say it's backed by gold. C-Gold and Pecunix started out with tiny investments and grew from there. Somewhat more stable pricing, at least no pump and dumps straight to $1

An individual exchange or e-wallet could back its holdings with gold but you couldn't back an entire blockchain with gold without creating a central authority to issue the digital currency and purchase and hold the gold reserves.  Because new coins are created on a set schedule, they'd need to buy gold equivalent to the value of those new coins each day.  That requires some serious capital reserves.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
DeathAndTaxes
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October 16, 2011, 01:37:14 AM
 #46

I'm not sure how a "legal-binding obligation" can be formalized, but if a company with considerable reputation and market value simply publishes such a statement, it's already a big deal. I'm sure there are better and more "binding" ways to do it though.

More importantly WHY THE FRAK would anyone do it?  To be nice?  Because they believe in rainbows and unicorns which shit skittles?

Most millionaires didn't become millionaires by waking up and saying "Hey I know what I am going to do today.  Take on $2.1M in risk with not only no gain no gain but no potential gain".
norulezapply
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October 16, 2011, 01:49:01 AM
 #47


Can somebody just promise to back the price up?
Say, somebody with a real name (or a real company)
could issue a legally binding obligation to buy BTC

Why would ANYONE want to do this?
What have they got to gain from buying coins from people that could be essentially worthless? Apart from that they have to buy them because they promised everyone they would?

In an ideal world, this would be nice. But in the real world, this will never happen. But hey, if you want to sell me all your bitcoins right now for $0.10 each i'll gladly accept =D


So, what's to stop your USD or GBP or any other currency from turning completely worthless with the current rampant inflation? People still massively trust those, even though their *actual worth* is falling every day.

If my post helped, I'll happily accept a few bitmills!   15rGg6A1JFZV3b7TTbtpAaiYGdUD1e1oAm
anu
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October 16, 2011, 04:40:24 AM
 #48

I'm not sure how a "legal-binding obligation" can be formalized, but if a company with considerable reputation and market value simply publishes such a statement, it's already a big deal. I'm sure there are better and more "binding" ways to do it though.

More importantly WHY THE FRAK would anyone do it?  To be nice?  Because they believe in rainbows and unicorns which shit skittles?

Most millionaires didn't become millionaires by waking up and saying "Hey I know what I am going to do today.  Take on $2.1M in risk with not only no gain no gain but no potential gain".

No gain? Not even potential gain? I was actually wondering not if, but when something along these lines would happen. As a Billionaire, you do a small investment:

1. Slowly buy up substantial parts of the bitcoins ( a million or so).
2. Announce big Bitcoin plans to the world.
3. Watch the rally
4. Profit

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astana
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October 16, 2011, 12:15:42 PM
 #49

I think someone big will get into the marker, somehow they have to lift the cap of 21mil coins, even if it can't be done. 21mil is not enough, 100mil is though.
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October 16, 2011, 12:20:55 PM
 #50

I think someone big will get into the marker, somehow they have to lift the cap of 21mil coins, even if it can't be done. 21mil is not enough, 100mil is though.

Why is 100 mil enough?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 16, 2011, 02:17:24 PM
 #51

I think someone big will get into the marker, somehow they have to lift the cap of 21mil coins, even if it can't be done. 21mil is not enough, 100mil is though.

21million is only not enough if you treat coins with the same divisibility as conventional money (0.01 being the lowest value).

There's 8 decimal places with bitcoins. 0.00000001 is the lowest value. This is why we don't need any more coins. If you think about it this way, there are 21,000,000,000,000 "coins", if you use their full divisibility and treat them in the same fashion as most conventional currencies (e.g. 0.01 x 100 = 1 "coin")

If my post helped, I'll happily accept a few bitmills!   15rGg6A1JFZV3b7TTbtpAaiYGdUD1e1oAm
acoindr
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October 16, 2011, 04:01:19 PM
 #52

21 million coins at .01 = 210,000 not 2.1M

i didn't see anyone mention 0.01, only 0.1.


You're right. The OP has .1$ which is a sort of weird format, which when I glanced at registered as somebody guaranteeing Bitcoins for 1 penny.

I'm not sure why the choice of 10 cents then. As long as Bitcoins can't go to zero that concern is alleviated.
WiseOldOwl
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October 16, 2011, 05:04:40 PM
 #53

I think Jacque Fresco's idea of a resource based economy could work really well as a way of doing things without money, but it would require just that, a big rethink. Simply phasing out money would never work, unless though progress of technoligy we effectivly get to something like the resource based economy without having to redesign anything.

I suggest to read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". You'll understand that a planned economy will inevitably slide down a slippery slope into totalitarianism. Do you think Pol Pot and Mao started out with the intention to become the most terrible mass murders in human history? Not at all.

It's shocking to see how the economic insecurity of recent times makes people demanding planners. Even on this forum. Bitcoin is all about freedom, is it not?

+1

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cbeast
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October 16, 2011, 10:29:30 PM
 #54

I think someone big will get into the marker, somehow they have to lift the cap of 21mil coins, even if it can't be done. 21mil is not enough, 100mil is though.

21million is only not enough if you treat coins with the same divisibility as conventional money (0.01 being the lowest value).

There's 8 decimal places with bitcoins. 0.00000001 is the lowest value. This is why we don't need any more coins. If you think about it this way, there are 21,000,000,000,000 "coins", if you use their full divisibility and treat them in the same fashion as most conventional currencies (e.g. 0.01 x 100 = 1 "coin")

There is no reason that at some point we can't add a few more decimal places, if needed. The client would need to be modified and people would have to agree with the change. I think most would as it won't reduce the value of their holdings as trebling the available coins would. QED

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 16, 2011, 10:38:24 PM
 #55

I think Jacque Fresco's idea of a resource based economy could work really well as a way of doing things without money, but it would require just that, a big rethink. Simply phasing out money would never work, unless though progress of technoligy we effectivly get to something like the resource based economy without having to redesign anything.

I suggest to read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". You'll understand that a planned economy will inevitably slide down a slippery slope into totalitarianism. Do you think Pol Pot and Mao started out with the intention to become the most terrible mass murders in human history? Not at all.

It's shocking to see how the economic insecurity of recent times makes people demanding planners. Even on this forum. Bitcoin is all about freedom, is it not?

+1
-1
Austrian Economic theory is pop pseudoscience. Fresco doesn't even propose an economic theory. Folks take this stuff too seriously. Money is imaginary, that's what I love about bitcoin. It's so imaginary, that even economists can't imagine it! Technology is what makes progress, not money. If economics was science, then you wouldn't get so many opposing theories. Its not like anyone can reject the theory of gravity and float away.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 17, 2011, 09:34:48 AM
 #56

Austrian Economic theory is pop pseudoscience. Fresco doesn't even propose an economic theory. Folks take this stuff too seriously. Money is imaginary, that's what I love about bitcoin. It's so imaginary, that even economists can't imagine it! Technology is what makes progress, not money. If economics was science, then you wouldn't get so many opposing theories. Its not like anyone can reject the theory of gravity and float away.

Oh Sir Popper, please enlighten him.

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phelix
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October 17, 2011, 12:45:38 PM
 #57

I think Jacque Fresco's idea of a resource based economy could work really well as a way of doing things without money, but it would require just that, a big rethink. Simply phasing out money would never work, unless though progress of technoligy we effectivly get to something like the resource based economy without having to redesign anything.

I suggest to read Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". You'll understand that a planned economy will inevitably slide down a slippery slope into totalitarianism. Do you think Pol Pot and Mao started out with the intention to become the most terrible mass murders in human history? Not at all.

It's shocking to see how the economic insecurity of recent times makes people demanding planners. Even on this forum. Bitcoin is all about freedom, is it not?

+1

+1

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October 17, 2011, 12:50:16 PM
 #58

I will buy all bitcoins at 0.000047619. Also I have big plans with them  Tongue

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October 17, 2011, 02:53:23 PM
 #59

With bitcoin, it is possible for a central bank or cartel of central banks to control the bitcoin money supply. The important thing to understand is that stored bitcoins are indistinguishable from lost bitcoins. Bitcoins only really have value when they are spent. This means that the Central Banks can buy bitcoin when they want to raise the price, and sell bitcoin when they want to lower the price. Through this process, they are able to control the rate of deflation up until they run out of coins to sell (run-away deflation).

Decentralized Central Banking Proposal

The OP was interested in a floor price. It is possible for a group of people to cooperate and share the risk of setting a "soft" floor price. Buy strategy shamelessly stolen from a post I saw months ago. Let's say each participant agrees to invest $10 USD for each "soft" floor. Using your favorite exchange, the buy orders would look something like this:
  • Buy 100 BTC at $0.1 USD/BTC
  • Buy 200 BTC at $0.05 USD/BTC
  • Buy 400 BTC at $0.025 USD/BTC
  • Buy 800 BTC at $0.0125 USD/BTC
  • Buy 1600 BTC at $0.0625 USD/BTC
  • Buy 3200 BTC at $0.03125 USD/BTC
The above buy walls each cost $10 USD for a total of $60 USD. Two people cooperating in this manner don't even need to agree on a specific floor price to share the risk. For example, somebody can invest $10 in a Buy for 142.86 BTC at $0.07 USD/BTC. The above buy walls would absorb a sell of up to 242.86 BTC while keeping the price above $0.05.

Where it gets interesting is when you start trying to use these unwanted bitcoins to try to control the rate of deflation. Anybody with a significant amount of bitcoins can use the same strategy to set a sell wall going in the opposite direction. For the purposes of discussion, let's say we want to limit the rate of deflation to 1000%/year (during the initial growth period). Without checking, I am going to pretend I found the weighted average price from a year ago was $0.30 USD/BTC. 11 times that corresponds to $3.3 USD/BTC (which until recently was below the average price). If you wanted to sell up to 127BTC, you could set up the following sell walls:
  • Sell 1 BTC at $3.3 USD/BTC
  • Sell 2 BTC at $6.6 USD/BTC
  • Sell 4 BTC at $13.2 USD/BTC
  • Sell 8 BTC at $26.4 USD/BTC
  • Sell 16 BTC at $56.8 USD/BTC
  • Sell 32 BTC at $105.6 USD/BTC
  • Sell 64 BTC at $211.2 USD/BTC
The sell walls should probably be re-evaluated/replenished daily. As before, several individuals can share the risk of setting a ceiling, even if they disagree what exactly the ceiling should be. For example, somebody who thinks deflation should be 10,000%/year may set their ceiling to $30.3 USD/BTC.

Edit: Central banks actually use Interest rates control economic growth.

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d.james
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October 17, 2011, 03:44:45 PM
 #60

I will buy all bitcoins at 0.000047619. Also I have big plans with them  Tongue

it's easier to just make your own chain then you can keep all of it.

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