PBmining - legit?

[hodlmybtc]

I also won 20 GH/s in their giveaway so at least I make some profit 

[tempestb]

Nevermind, I think I see why people buy these things, they don't get basic math.  According to the calculator YOU linked to, 1gh/s purchased at 0.0056btc will never return 0.0056btc.  Ever.  I do see where you made your mistake, if you run the calculator starting in April it will eventually return more than 0.0056btc.  But of course April is already over.  Starting now, since pgmining doesn't seem to offer a time machine on their website, you can expect to get around 0.004 btc back by August. 
Regarding your second point, you keep saying that if the price of btc goes up it  makes this a profitable move.  It doesn't.  Obviously the dollar value of the btc you get back would go up in value, but then so does the dollar value of the cost you paid.  One last time, paying 0.0056btc now to get 0.004btc later is not a good deal!  And makes no difference what the btc is worth in dollars.  But Im a very generous person.  If you think it is such a good deal, I promise to give you 0.004btc in august for every 0.0056btc you give me now.  Any reputable escrow service you wish to use. 

You're not zeroing out the electrical costs, the accessory costs and the like.  You pay none of that.  You have to measure with the current difficulty vs what you're buying.  It profits.  Learn how to use the mining calculator.  It's funny that you think you're smarter than all the miners.  We must all be idiots right? 

I explained the math on how mining makes more than holding, but you're not getting it.  If you buy a Bitcoin and it becomes $4,000 in value.  Great.  Now, if I buy a miner for the same price that you bought the Bitcoin at.  The only reason the miner ever stops making money is if the cost of electricity is higher than what it earns.  If the value of Bitcoin reaches $4,000 then the miner WILL EARN MORE BITCOINS THEN I PAID FOR IT. 

You say no, but that is incorrect.  It's simple math. 

[brian_23452]

None of that applies to a 5 year mining contract, since they are under contract to continue to provide the hashing power for 5 years whether it is economical to do so or not.  This is simply basic math, the total proceeds from hashing for the entire 5 year contract come to be less than what it costs to purchase. 

I don't think that's correct.  The current cost of a gh on PBMining is 0.0056.  https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/702307c1fb

It's profit by August forward.  Assuming current BTC price remains constant.  This is better than holding.

(Assuming not a ponzi for the purpose of this discussion only.)


I've already explained the apex where mining is worth more than holding, but you need a value around $4,000 for that to work out.  Which isn't likely.
 

Nevermind, I think I see why people buy these things, they don't get basic math.  According to the calculator YOU linked to, 1gh/s purchased at 0.0056btc will never return 0.0056btc.  Ever.  I do see where you made your mistake, if you run the calculator starting in April it will eventually return more than 0.0056btc.  But of course April is already over.  Starting now, since pgmining doesn't seem to offer a time machine on their website, you can expect to get around 0.004 btc back by August. 
Regarding your second point, you keep saying that if the price of btc goes up it  makes this a profitable move.  It doesn't.  Obviously the dollar value of the btc you get back would go up in value, but then so does the dollar value of the cost you paid.  One last time, paying 0.0056btc now to get 0.004btc later is not a good deal!  And makes no difference what the btc is worth in dollars.  But Im a very generous person.  If you think it is such a good deal, I promise to give you 0.004btc in august for every 0.0056btc you give me now.  Any reputable escrow service you wish to use. 

The dollar value of the cost I paid does not go up. It remains the same. If the BTC I am mining goes up so does my profit. Perhaps you need to re-think your argument. It is flawed. According to you, no one mining is making any money. What would happen if everyone stopped? If I listened to people like you, I would do nothing but purchase coins. Then what? Without miners, you have nothing. So get over it.

Huh?  You aren't buying the shares with dollars.  You are buying them with bitcoins.  This really isn't that difficult to comprehend.  
You and I each have 0.0056 bitcoins.  You buy one of these shares.  I don't.  Bitcoin goes to the moon, and hits 10,000 dollars by august.  You have 0.004btc worth 40 dollars.  I have 0.0056btc worth 56 dollars.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?  
  

[brian_23452]

Nevermind, I think I see why people buy these things, they don't get basic math.  According to the calculator YOU linked to, 1gh/s purchased at 0.0056btc will never return 0.0056btc.  Ever.  I do see where you made your mistake, if you run the calculator starting in April it will eventually return more than 0.0056btc.  But of course April is already over.  Starting now, since pgmining doesn't seem to offer a time machine on their website, you can expect to get around 0.004 btc back by August. 
Regarding your second point, you keep saying that if the price of btc goes up it  makes this a profitable move.  It doesn't.  Obviously the dollar value of the btc you get back would go up in value, but then so does the dollar value of the cost you paid.  One last time, paying 0.0056btc now to get 0.004btc later is not a good deal!  And makes no difference what the btc is worth in dollars.  But Im a very generous person.  If you think it is such a good deal, I promise to give you 0.004btc in august for every 0.0056btc you give me now.  Any reputable escrow service you wish to use. 

You're not zeroing out the electrical costs, the accessory costs and the like.  You pay none of that.  You have to measure with the current difficulty vs what you're buying.  It profits.  Learn how to use the mining calculator.  It's funny that you think you're smarter than all the miners.  We must all be idiots right? 

I explained the math on how mining makes more than holding, but you're not getting it.  If you buy a Bitcoin and it becomes $4,000 in value.  Great.  Now, if I buy a miner for the same price that you bought the Bitcoin at.  The only reason the miner ever stops making money is if the cost of electricity is higher than what it earns.  If the value of Bitcoin reaches $4,000 then the miner WILL EARN MORE BITCOINS THEN I PAID FOR IT. 

You say no, but that is incorrect.  It's simple math. 

I zeroed out all costs except the price of the hash.  Here it is:  https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/975f84599c
Notice if you change the value of bitcoin it does not change your bring even date (which is never)
Why do you keep bringing up miners?  We aren't talking about purchasing miners.  We're talking about purchasing a hashing contract.
And to answer your question, no I don't think you're all idiots.  I think the only ones are idiots are the ones purchasing a contract that is clearly going to pay out less then the contract.  On the contrary I think any miner who can sell their hashing power for more btc then it will ever create is a genius. 

[tempestb]

You're doing it wrong.  The difficulty in May is 10 million and the PBMining price you set is .0056

The difficulty changed today.  It is currently 8 million.  And PBMining adjusted the price to .0053

Don't choose MAY.  Stick with April since that is now, today's difficulty, and the difficulty is factored on that.  If you choose May, it's 1 month in the future so it changes the difficulty to 10 million.

If you do it correctly, your investment profits.

[brian_23452]

You're doing it wrong.  The difficulty in May is 10 million and the PBMining price you set is .0056

The difficulty changed today.  It is currently 8 million.  And PBMining adjusted the price to .0053

Don't choose MAY.  Stick with April since that is now, today's difficulty, and the difficulty is factored on that.  If you choose May, it's 1 month in the future so it changes the difficulty to 10 million.

If you do it correctly, your investment profits.

What?  Why would I put April when it isn't April?  It's May.  Here it is again:

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/9c7bd552ea

See when you ROI?  Oh right, you don't, ever.

[OC19850520]

What?  Why would I put April when it isn't April?  It's May.  Here it is again:

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/9c7bd552ea

See when you ROI?  Oh right, you don't, ever.

You assume difficulty will go up so fast forever, but I dont think it is possible because at some point electricity cost more than you can mine with most effective 28nm ASIC miner.

[tempestb]

What?  Why would I put April when it isn't April?  It's May.  Here it is again:

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/9c7bd552ea

See when you ROI?  Oh right, you don't, ever.

I give up trying to explain it to you, you obviously don't understand how Bitcoin works.  The difficulty calculator is based on the current difficulty.  You need the current price from PBMining and the current difficulty.  If you put it into the future, even in the same month, the steps can be off because the difficulty rises every 10 days. 

The entire reason for this thread here, is because it always returns on investment.  That's the PROBLEM.  In a normal world that shouldn't be the case because basically PBMining is saying you will always make money by investing with them.  Between that and the money switching, it looks very much like a Ponzi scheme, but people are investing in it and taking a risk.

You sitting here telling people who know how to calculate difficulty that they will lose money is silly.  You gotta learn more about what you're talking about before you argue it. 

At the end of the day though, you'll probably end up right that it's a bad investment, but not because of why you think.  It'll be because they'll vanish...  maybe.

[tempestb]

Also, again you have the wrong numbers put in.  They lowered their price to .0053 at the time of posting.  Add 100 to GH and the share price so that it can do the percentages properly.  (It's not the best calculator at low numbers)  So act like you bought 100 shares and not 1 and you will get a more accurate display.

Note, as of 12:52am on 5/2 it profits.  If you come on here two days later again and say it doesn't, check it again when they lower the price on PBMining, typically when the difficulty is recalculated.  (Suspicious)  And you'll find that it once again profits. 

[brian_23452]

Posting less than an hour after you:

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/673794a076

All red. 

Why don't YOU post a link that shows ROI?  But please, without lowering the difficulty this time. 

[Syke]

Posting less than an hour after you:

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/673794a076

All red. 

Why don't YOU post a link that shows ROI?  But please, without lowering the difficulty this time. 

Tradeblock doesn't work well past a few months. The difficulty is not going to keep growing like that. PBMining could easily break even within a year, if they last that long. I really doubt they will.

[tempestb]

Difficulty is a moving target right now.  As of this posting...

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/7149750ea6

It profits.  But you see that the price of a coin is $450 right now and the difficulty per month went down by 1 percentage point.  (These are all defaults, I modified nothing)  All of that can change.  It's a moving target.

[SelbyTsang]

Difficulty is a moving target right now.  As of this posting...

https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/7149750ea6

It profits.  But you see that the price of a coin is $450 right now and the difficulty per month went down by 1 percentage point.  (These are all defaults, I modified nothing)  All of that can change.  It's a moving target.

In the setting, you just barely break even.
So, if difficulty goes lower than that, or bitcoin price goes higher than that, you should see profits, and vice versa.

[beatljuice]

I have been roped into ponzi's before, and seen other ponzi's that didn't get me. Every one of them had loads of evidence for why they were NOT a ponzi, including government officials, lawyers, and law enforcment agents that all swore that the "business" was legit.

The fact that PBMining doesn't seem to give a shit what I think is huge evidence in its favor. At least in my experience. Or maybe I got roped in again.

By the way I have almost 2 TH/s with PBMining.  I've been with them for over a month and always been paid out on time and they have answered several customer support issues for me quickly, including updating an item on the Web site that I requested. This certainly doesn't prove they aren't a ponzi but I'm willing to risk it so far. I even recommend them in my signature.

Other than being a customer and the 10% I earn for being an affiliate I'm not in any way connected to them. I haven't done a lot of research to check them out, though I did read somewhere that they were a Canadian registered company. I, of course, don't know if what I read was accurate either.

EDIT: I also have one person who used my link that continues to reinvest each week, so I assume he/she is happy with the service also. And it's a little more evidence that they aren't cheating anyone since PBMining could just "forget" to pay me the 10% for the other persons investments.

[jimmothy]

The fact that PBMining doesn't seem to give a shit what I think is huge evidence in its favor.

Seems legit...

Do you really think lack of evidence = evidence of legitimacy?

Is a few pics of their massive farm too much to ask for?

Or non mixed coins?

[beatljuice]

Do you really think lack of evidence = evidence of legitimacy?

First off, there is no good evidence for either argument. And being a bit of an anarchist I tend toward believing the best of people until proven otherwise.

(For those who don't know. One of the basic tenants of anarchy is that we don't need laws because people are basically good, so laws do very little to change things) 

Second, you didn't quote me correctly. I said "At least in my experience." Meaning that the Shakespearean "Me thinks though dost protest too much" seems to hold up in the Ponzi arena IN MY EXPERIENCE. Now, when I hear someone say "it's perfectly legal" my bullshit detector goes on full alert.

Apparently the people at PBMining basically say fuck off we don't give a shit what you think, and IN MY EXPERIENCE that is (very weak) evidence they are legit.

[tempestb]

A Ponzi works great so long as more money comes in than leaves.  So long as you and people like you keep investing more and more money they can keep the Ponzi going because the payout is so small vs your initial investment.  As long as they are growing with new investments that are larger than their payouts, they can keep it up for a long time, including allowing early adopters to profit just fine.

But eventually they will either not be able to make their payments or decide at some point it's time to take the money and run.

I'm not saying this is the case, but evidence does not support they are legit just because they pay out people on time.

The wise investor would want to see simple proof of their mining farm.  Why not show it?  Everyone else involved in this kind of business provides such proof.  Instead, these guys have no identities that can be verified, they have no photos of their mining equipment, and they launder their coins so they can't be traced back to mining.

That's a pretty significant red flag.  The fact that so many newbie users without a long history of being on Bitcointalk also join in and say it's legit further fans the flames of suspicion.

Maybe it'll all be legit, but I'm not gambling my dollars on it.  I think it's likely a Ponzi.  I'll change my tune when they provide proof that they aren't.

[ghur]

Well put tempestb.

[tzortz]

I am sure the countdown has started.

[Syke]

and they launder their coins so they can't be traced back to mining.

This is a key point. Laundered coins from a "mining operation", is 99% a scam. If they had an actual mining farm, they would have generated coins with no history. Mined coins are completely untraceable. There is absolutely no reason to launder them. None.