ETF postponed creates another dip

[exstasie]

I think the securitization of Bitcoin is bad news all around. It doesn't eliminate the purpose of Bitcoin, but it distracts from it. The protocol/network keeps chugging along no matter what. You won't see me treating ETF shares as sound money. It's paper based on trust.

But the problem is that society bows so heavily to authority. People will trust (and some Bitcoin folks around here already do trust) that "paper backing" is as good as real bitcoins. But this is inevitable. It's really not much different than counterfeiting coins in the traditional sense. Most people simply trust legal face value.

Re: the currency vs. investment dilemma: I think Bitcoin was created to be sound money. Money is only an investment insofar as Gresham's law ("bad money drives out good"). As long as our economies are dominated by freely printed and debased currencies, people will invest in BTC. There's no way around that.

So I guess we should expect these slimy derivative products to come to market as well. All we can do is preach the difference between real BTC and paper BTC.

How does it not eliminate the purpose of bitcoin? It eliminates the fact that bitcoin was supposed to be a peer to peer currency eliminating the usage of 3rd party intermediaries. ETF sucks and people need to understand that. Hell people even got scammed by such methods(through unofficial sources who were actually scammers).

Unfortunately at the moment I don't have a counter argument about the currency vs investment dilemma, good points made there. But the ETF thing, fuck that.  

Seems like a language issue here. I was confused by your wording of "eliminate the purpose of bitcoin." ETF shares are just paper securities. They require trust, so of course they aren't a replacement for bitcoins. They aren't bitcoins. If that's all you're saying, I agree. That's why I said:

All we can do is preach the difference between real BTC and paper BTC.

It's just like people holding debt notes payable in gold vs. holding real gold bullion.... eventually, the counterparty trust will fuck people over. I get that.

I thought you were saying this had some relevance to the protocol. I think that was the confusion. It's completely 100% irrelevant. If ETF share buyers believe they are buying bitcoins, they are ignorant and may get screwed because of it. But I do think BTC securities are unavoidable (due to hype, deception and misunderstanding of Bitcoin), so as a community, we need to emphasize the difference between real bitcoins and fake securities.

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[yndye]

Yes, I totally agree that the postponement creates another panic causing the price to go down again. Those speculators who get into the picture thought that it might be approved but since they consider this delay as a negative news, they sold and newbie traders panics again. Its really a disappointed and we are back to square one again waiting for another positive news that can help us get the price again above $7K-8K.

ETF is the one people anticipating to break the bear market but unfortunately the decision has been delayed which is a strategy perhaps of those people who wanted to buy back cheap coins and some who wanted to short the market. It has just been delayed but not rejected though that's why people shouldn't panic like that. Nevertheless, this is a lesson that once you have profits, you should consider taking some or all of it to secure it because crypto prices is just too volatile that one moment you are in profit and with just a blink of an eye, you are at a loss.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

This sensational fuss over the ETF is borderline lunacy.

I agree, and didn't we already go through this about a year and a half ago with the CBOE?  My memory might be a little faulty about the details, but I definitely recall an ETF discussion not that long ago and I seem to recall some price movement then as well.

It does seem like the price action is because of this news, but I don't think it can be said with certainty that this is the case.  If it IS true, I'm wondering why there was such a dramatic drop--bitcoin is $6328 as I write this, and that's over $2000 less than what it achieved during the last little price recovery we had.  That's a pretty damn steep dip, and from what I read about the ETF thing, it's only a postponement of a decision, not a flat-out rejection. 

I'm wondering if some big buyers bought bitcoin outright in anticipation of an approval and then lost faith (or got some inside information).

[bbc.reporter]

This sensational fuss over the ETF is borderline lunacy. It's just another reason to jerk the price around and stop out everyone who hid under the 7000 level or wherever. I'm getting sick and tired of these 30,000 by Dec / 50,000 by Oct / 100,000,000 by 2020 forecasts. How in the hell can anyone have a true idea of what the coin's value is going to be if there are no fundamental values to base a judgement on? Forecasters have a hard enough time doing it even when the values do exist.

This dip is just another good reason to hang on and chill out. It's not the doom, and the ETF isn't the future.

Agreed. But also, why are the people dumping with a loss now? That would be a mistake. The article says that the decision was postponed only until September 30. It might be better for them to hold a while longer and sell on a better price.

[Hueristic]

This would be a nice time to see a beartrap.

[figmentofmyass]

really? it wouldn't be outside the realm of normal. that's roughly the equivalent of the 2011 bubble pop. that would probably be the worst case scenario, but i wouldn't rule it out!

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will happen. If that's your way of looking at things, we shouldn't discard the possibility of falling back below $100 either, or even below $10.

all i said is "i wouldn't rule it out" because you called people delusional for thinking we could see a 94% drop from the top. we literally only have a handful of bubbles to study, and one of them dropped 94% from the top!

you make it sound like dropping another > 10x or > 100x from there is just as likely. why?

Back in 2013 we were initially hovering around $15 and within the same year we touched $1100. The long term correction took the price back down to around $150 in 2015. It didn't fall back to its starting point and it won't this time.

when it comes to markets, most people are wrong most of the time in their trades and predictions. i don't think we're going back to $1000, but i need to remain open to all realistic scenarios and trade accordingly. i became much more successful as a trader when i stopped having the attitude that "x won't happen" or "y can't happen." that mentality will get you killed in the markets because it prevents you from acting until the "unthinkable" has already occurred.

[bbc.reporter]

This would be a nice time to see a beartrap.

I reckon it is. When the date approaches near September 30, we would see the same people who sold on $7000 and lower, buy again on $8000 hehehe. If there is a dump back to $7000, they sell again with a loss.

[lilli_stitch]

This sensational fuss over the ETF is borderline lunacy. It's just another reason to jerk the price around and stop out everyone who hid under the 7000 level or wherever. I'm getting sick and tired of these 30,000 by Dec / 50,000 by Oct / 100,000,000 by 2020 forecasts. How in the hell can anyone have a true idea of what the coin's value is going to be if there are no fundamental values to base a judgement on? Forecasters have a hard enough time doing it even when the values do exist.

This dip is just another good reason to hang on and chill out. It's not the doom, and the ETF isn't the future.

ETF is crap. Bitcoin was created to be a mainstream currency and not to be a main stream investment(which I am afraid it already has). ETF eliminates the purpose of bitcoin. So fuck that shit.

I think the securitization of Bitcoin is bad news all around. It doesn't eliminate the purpose of Bitcoin, but it distracts from it. The protocol/network keeps chugging along no matter what. You won't see me treating ETF shares as sound money. It's paper based on trust.

But the problem is that society bows so heavily to authority. People will trust (and some Bitcoin folks around here already do trust) that "paper backing" is as good as real bitcoins. But this is inevitable. It's really not much different than counterfeiting coins in the traditional sense. Most people simply trust legal face value.

Re: the currency vs. investment dilemma: I think Bitcoin was created to be sound money. Money is only an investment insofar as Gresham's law ("bad money drives out good"). As long as our economies are dominated by freely printed and debased currencies, people will invest in BTC. There's no way around that.

So I guess we should expect these slimy derivative products to come to market as well. All we can do is preach the difference between real BTC and paper BTC.

Exactly. This is one more distraction serving elite interests that apparently is working very well, as we can see all around this forum. Bitcoin has a higher purpose than to be tied to paper contracts that have no intrinsic value. It is not meant to have institutional investors piling money into it like that. Not that we have any real way to stop it anyway.

But yes, this institutional face value will make it a valid form of investment in the eyes of many. Specifically those that are shy about the "legal ramifications" of bitcoin not being able to be settled in the court of law. So those that previously wouldn't touch bitcoin with a 30 foot pole will be able to sleep at night with an piece of paper to hold onto.

[omonuyak]

The ETF postponed has really affected bitcoin price upwards movement and I think we should not be discouraged about our holding as we have hope things are going to change in time.

[1Referee]

The ETF postponed has really affected bitcoin price upwards movement and I think we should not be discouraged about our holding as we have hope things are going to change in time.

The SEC postponing an ETF means it's rejected. The only reason they don't reject it right away is because they don't want to be showered with hate and negativity. It's not even worth focusing on anymore, but the market as shitty as it is will recycle this ETF till the SEC has actually rejected it.

The problem with people here is that they only use Bitcoin for speculative purposes, and in case there is nothing left to speculate about, they'll get upset and bored. I don't have that problem because I actually use it as money, regardless of the price. If you directly buy back every spent coin the price isn't important and you can use it nearly as conveniently as when you use fiat.

Seriously, the only thing that speculating has done to people this year is stress them out big time. Drop it for once and accept that 2018 is not going to be the year.

[thresher]

Yes, I totally agree that the postponement creates another panic causing the price to go down again. Those speculators who get into the picture thought that it might be approved but since they consider this delay as a negative news, they sold and newbie traders panics again. Its really a disappointed and we are back to square one again waiting for another positive news that can help us get the price again above $7K-8K.

Yes that is right that in current time we were not expecting the current depth. People were very much hopeful that after the acceptance of ETF bitcoin price will rise too much and even some investors were expected that bitcoin price will hopefully cross 20k in next few months.