If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it?

[soy]

Given that every transaction is listed in the blockchain, why not identify the double spent Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks, make them worthless, and reissue the Bitcoins?  Or would that just pass the buck as it were, putting the bad debt where ever the stolen bitcoins are now?  It would be pretty difficult to spend that much money on merchandise that quickly.

[1714248869]

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[rayfloyd]

Given that every transaction is listed in the blockchain, why not identify the double spent Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks, make them worthless, and reissue the Bitcoins?  Or would that just pass the buck as it were, putting the bad debt where ever the stolen bitcoins are now?  It would be pretty difficult to spend that much money on merchandise that quickly.

there never was double spends.

Only bad money managing from Gox

[soy]

Given that every transaction is listed in the blockchain, why not identify the double spent Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks, make them worthless, and reissue the Bitcoins?  Or would that just pass the buck as it were, putting the bad debt where ever the stolen bitcoins are now?  It would be pretty difficult to spend that much money on merchandise that quickly.

there never was double spends.

Only bad money managing from Gox

I can understand that they may be fiat broke but how can they have fewer Bitcoins than their legal transactions indicate?

[grifferz]

I can understand that they may be fiat broke but how can they have fewer Bitcoins than their legal transactions indicate?

You send me 10BTC.

I lose those BTC by some means.

You ask for your BTC back.

I say I have halted withdrawals of your BTC because $PROBLEMS

You say, "it's OK, grifferz must have my BTC because trades have indicated it"

I sit on a big blue ball.

[Wendigo]

What is a big blue ball?

[grifferz]

[smeg4brains]

there never was double spends.

Only bad money managing from Gox

There were double withdrawals though. And at least Mt Gox should have a record of by who..

You could probably get a pretty good idea with careful examination of the blockchain, but you'd need Mt Gox's withdrawal records to be sure.. but the exact same amount withdrawn to the same address more than once, combined with hash padding issues seems like a good place to start.. Cross referenced with Mt Gox withdrawal records and their KYC records and it seems like you should be able to knock on someone's door and ask some good questions.. 

[soy]

I can understand that they may be fiat broke but how can they have fewer Bitcoins than their legal transactions indicate?

You send me 10BTC.

I lose those BTC by some means.

You ask for your BTC back.

I say I have halted withdrawals of your BTC because $PROBLEMS

You say, "it's OK, grifferz must have my BTC because trades have indicated it"

I sit on a big blue ball.

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

[Rannasha]

there never was double spends.

Only bad money managing from Gox

There were double withdrawals though. And at least Mt Gox should have a record of by who..

You could probably get a pretty good idea with careful examination of the blockchain, but you'd need Mt Gox's withdrawal records to be sure.. but the exact same amount withdrawn to the same address more than once, combined with hash padding issues seems like a good place to start.. Cross referenced with Mt Gox withdrawal records and their KYC records and it seems like you should be able to knock on someone's door and ask some good questions.. 

BTC withdrawals have been possible without the whole KYC-verification until not too long ago. If this problem has been going on for years as the leaked PDF claims, then it started way before Gox had names and other info on their BTC-withdrawers.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.

[grifferz]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Who has the motivation to do that work though?

No one at MtGox. So, the government? Isn't it more in their interest to just tell you that bitcoin is not regulated, until they are ready to use the outrage to insist upon regulation?

[soy]

Instead of hari-kari, how about I just stick the knife in the big blue ball.

[nanonano]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

[soy]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

Sadly you are not.   If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.  What you do have is an IOU from MtGox to repay you x BTC at such time when you choose to withdraw them.  You own debt from MtGox.  MtGox has failed to honor that debt.  That is the problem with debt.  It is often not repaid.  The advantage of Bitcoin is that it has no counterparty risk however if you hand over your Bitcoins in exchange for IOUs then you are giving up that advantage.

If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.

As for saying you are the rightful owner.  Says who?  Based on what evidence?   Who judges that evidence?  How do they have the master control key for the Bitcoin network?

[leopard2]

D&T is correct. We want BTC to be like that, like cash. Actually fiat is similar, if you give your cash to a bank you get IOU's in return. Typically a bank only got 1-3% of the cash, the difference is lent out on the basis of fractional banking.

Even Gox should have more than 1-3% left.

What banks do, is that they insure each other, and of course the central banks/govt. bails them out. This is possible only because fiat can be created from thin air.

In the case of BTC, having segregated accounts is the solution, then no one is going to be goxxed anymore.

[nanonano]

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

D&T is right: MtGox was the owner of those bitcoins. The only thing you had was a solemn promise from MtGox that they would give you a same number of bitcoins when you wanted them.

[boumalo]

I can understand that they may be fiat broke but how can they have fewer Bitcoins than their legal transactions indicate?

You send me 10BTC.

I lose those BTC by some means.

You ask for your BTC back.

I say I have halted withdrawals of your BTC because $PROBLEMS

You say, "it's OK, grifferz must have my BTC because trades have indicated it"

I sit on a big blue ball.

Haha his twitter is not having any activity https://twitter.com/MagicalTux

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

D&T is right: MtGox was the owner of those bitcoins. The only thing you had was a solemn promise from MtGox that they would give you a same number of bitcoins when you wanted them.

That is important to understand that, it is why we need not to have all our wealth in one place and at the mercy of bad management

[soy]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

Sadly you are not.   If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.  What you do have is an IOU from MtGox to repay you x BTC at such time when you choose to withdraw them.  You own debt from MtGox.  MtGox has failed to honor that debt.  That is the problem with debt.  It is often not repaid.  The advantage of Bitcoin is that it has no counterparty risk however if you hand over your Bitcoins in exchange for IOUs then you are giving up that advantage.

If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.

As for saying you are the rightful owner.  Says who?  Based on what evidence?   Who judges that evidence?  How do they have the master control key for the Bitcoin network?

Then back to the missing bitcoins.  When the US government seized some MtGox bitcoins because laws were broken was there a verifiable blockchain trail identifying specific bitcoins with specific lawbreakers?

[DeathAndTaxes]

To my knowledge the US government never seized any bitcoins from MtGox.  Still even the US government doesn't have a magical freeze bitcoins override switch.  In the case of the silk road they seized the bitcoins because .... they seized the private keys.

As DPR is learning right now:

If you don't have the private key for "your" bitcoins then you have no bitcoins.