If MtGox can ident the Bitcoins, why not fix it?

[Squeaker]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

How would you identify those specific bitcoin as _yours_?

There aren't specific, numbered, bitcoins. Bitcoin is just a ledger system.

Bitcoin that I deposit at an exchange, would most likely, be used on someone else's subsequent withdrawal from that exchange within the hour. The exchange keeps track of what I deposited, internally.

Same way that when you put USD 200 in cash into an ATM to deposit into your savings account, that money isn't collected later in the day, and put into a box in the vault, labelled "soy's monies", waiting for you to withdraw it later from your box.

You depend on the bank, and the exchange, to faithfully keep track of how much belongs to who, and if they are wrong, through no fault of the customer, it is on the bank/exchange, to reimburse you. It would be completely wrong to claw back monies from a 3rd party who had done nothing wrong, depriving them of _their_ monies, so you could have yours.

=squeak=

(edit: changed "nanonano's monies" to "soy's monies" as I lost track of who we were really replying to... sorry, nanonano o/ )

[soy]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible.

non-sequitur

But why not stop those bitcoins from being traded ASAP.  If somewhere down the road a decision is made that the stolen/missing Bitcoins belong to the rightful owners and those transactions with stolen/missing Bitcoins are not valid then freezing them now would limit the damage and to argue otherwise aside from arguing as the devil's advocate is suspect.  A pain in the ass for the blockchain yes but better sooner than later.

[DeathAndTaxes]

But why not stop those bitcoins from being traded ASAP.

You keep (intentionally) ignoring this question.  Who would do this?  On what authority?  How would they do it?

In related news the top 500 bitcoin addresses are mine and were just stolen please freeze them.

[soy]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible. Even if it was possible, it would not be fair: The "illegal" bitcoins may have been part of hundreds of transactions after leaving Gox. Those transactions may be totally normal trades between people who had no idea that you would later declare their money illegal. Who are you to say those trades are now void?

Who am I?  the rightful owner of those Bitcoins.

How would you identify those specific bitcoin as _yours_?

There aren't specific, numbered, bitcoins. Bitcoin is just a ledger system.

Bitcoin that I deposit at an exchange, would most likely, be used on someone else's subsequent withdrawal from that exchange within the hour. The exchange keeps track of what I deposited, internally.

Same way that when you put USD 200 in cash into an ATM to deposit into your savings account, that money isn't collected later in the day, and put into a box in the vault, labelled "nanonano's monies", waiting for you to withdraw it later from your box.

You depend on the bank, and the exchange, to faithfully keep track of how much belongs to who, and if they are wrong, through no fault of the customer, it is on the bank/exchange, to reimburse you. It would be completely wrong to claw back monies from a 3rd party who had done nothing wrong, depriving them of _their_ monies, so you could have yours.

=squeak=

Every Bitcoin has a history.  If MtGox did not assign specific Bitcoins to my MtGox Bitcoin holdings, it at least has a history of what Bitcoins were double spent or stolen.  Identifying those that were stolen and freezing those so no more transactions can be conducted with those is what's necessary.  And yes, if a 3rd party bought those stolen coins the third party would lose not the rightful owner, MtGox and by extension myself.

[Squeaker]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

You're not a newbie based on the post count... you should know by now that what you suggest is impossible.

non-sequitur

But why not stop those bitcoins from being traded ASAP.  If somewhere down the road a decision is made that the stolen/missing Bitcoins belong to the rightful owners and those transactions with stolen/missing Bitcoins are not valid then freezing them now would limit the damage and to argue otherwise aside from arguing as the devil's advocate is suspect.  A pain in the ass for the blockchain yes but better sooner than later.

If the people running MtGox had paid closer attention to their balance sheets, this could have been possible and have caught it within weeks of it happening... but they didn't... and so now we're looking at months and months (perhaps even years) of over-withdrawals that have happened. How would you even be able to determine which were intended and which weren't at this point? You might be able to figure out a small fraction with a 2:3 level of accuracy, but it has gone on too long, and grown too big, for this kind of damage to be absorbed... all because they were apathetic to their balance sheets.

=squeak=

[Squeaker]

Every Bitcoin has a history.  If MtGox did not assign specific Bitcoins to my MtGox Bitcoin holdings, it at least has a history of what Bitcoins were double spent or stolen.  Identifying those that were stolen and freezing those so no more transactions can be conducted with those is what's necessary.  And yes, if a 3rd party bought those stolen coins the third party would lose not the rightful owner, MtGox and by extension myself.

Every piece of bitcoin _that_is_transacted_on_the_blockchain_ has a history... all of the coin within MtGox, do  not have a history on the blockchain.

The blockchain shows coin going into MtGox, and coin coming out to MtGox... not which accounts within MtGox, holds what.

As far as the blockchain is concerned, all that coin, belongs to addresses held by MtGox.

When you deposit coin to MtGox, once your MtGox account is credited, the coin that arrived at your deposit address is moved to MtGox's wallet. (the deposit address is only used so MtGox knows who gets credited for what). Once in MtGox's operating wallet, that coin may be used for a withdrawal, or may be moved to cold storage if the operating wallet contains too much. When those moves happen, that coin is not recognizeable as yours anymore, and even the amounts of the pieces have changed.

What you think of as "yours", is no longer "yours"... and no longer exists.

=squeak=

edit: also, you are getting your terminology wrong... a double-spend, is different than MtGox having sent coin, twice... a double-spend involves two transactions trying to reference the same piece of coin as inputs to the transaction. MtGox's problem, had more to do with losing track of what it was sending, and sending more, without knowing what it sent earlier, did go through, so MtGox sent more than one valid transaction, where a double-spend, only one transaction would have succeeded.

[soy]

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

[Squeaker]

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

[soy]

Every Bitcoin has a history.  If MtGox did not assign specific Bitcoins to my MtGox Bitcoin holdings, it at least has a history of what Bitcoins were double spent or stolen.  Identifying those that were stolen and freezing those so no more transactions can be conducted with those is what's necessary.  And yes, if a 3rd party bought those stolen coins the third party would lose not the rightful owner, MtGox and by extension myself.

Every piece of bitcoin _that_is_transacted_on_the_blockchain_ has a history... all of the coin within MtGox, do  not have a history on the blockchain.

The blockchain shows coin going into MtGox, and coin coming out to MtGox... not which accounts within MtGox, holds what.

As far as the blockchain is concerned, all that coin, belongs to addresses held by MtGox.

When you deposit coin to MtGox, once your MtGox account is credited, the coin that arrived at your deposit address is moved to MtGox's wallet. (the deposit address is only used so MtGox knows who gets credited for what). Once in MtGox's operating wallet, that coin may be used for a withdrawal, or may be moved to cold storage if the operating wallet contains too much. When those moves happen, that coin is not recognizeable as yours anymore, and even the amounts of the pieces have changed.

What you think of as "yours", is no longer "yours"... and no longer exists.

=squeak=

edit: also, you are getting your terminology wrong... a double-spend, is different than MtGox having sent coin, twice... a double-spend involves two transactions trying to reference the same piece of coin as inputs to the transaction. MtGox's problem, had more to do with losing track of what it was sending, and sending more, without knowing what it sent earlier, did go through, so MtGox sent more than one valid transaction, where a double-spend, only one transaction would have succeeded.

So, those who saw that they were paid twice or more for a withdrawal exploited that.  Boy if someone had gotten one of those double transactions for a single withdrawal request he'd argue loudly it can't be fixed, give up trying to fix it.

[soy]

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless.  They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture.  They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then.  If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless.  They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture.  They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then.  If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

The Bitcoin Foundation doesn't control my node (or anyone's node).  Bitcoin is a consensus system.  So you want it so whatever coins the Foundation says are worthless, become worthless.  You can't possibly see the problem with having an entity with an off switch to the entire Bitcoin network, an absolute central power in a "decentralized network"?

Can't think of any way that could be possibly be abused?  Nobody will agree to a Bitcoin where a single entity can at will freeze coins.  Bitcoins works on consensus if people don't agree to that fork, it will never be used.

[mgburks77]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.

Amen

[soy]

I can see how those deluded with the anonymity of Bitcoin could be worried that their trades on Silk Road or Silk Road 2 could be traced back to them but they'd have to be idiots not to realize that the blockchain is a record of every trade.

Please define how you are attempting to use the term "trade" in this context?

Organized crime ran into the problem of computers tracking money in US banks a long time ago.  They moved to hanging valuable artwork on their walls and the like.  What to do with the money was/is a real problem for organized crime.

You'll argue that I should explain exactly how the stolen/missing Bitcoins can be tracked or identified.  I can't.  But I've never argued I could.  Perhaps somebody on the board of the Bitcoin Foundation can.

We are arguing no such thing...

We are arguing that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and we are trying to drop some knowledge on you that you are ignoring.

=squeak=

After the US government seized Bitcoins, the Bitcoin Foundation considered making those specific Bitcoins worthless.  They questioned why allow the seizing government to profit and to gain the leverage of perhaps dumping those Bitcoins to effect Bitcoin value at some critical juncture.  They would likely have brainstormed how to do that back then.  If MtGox can identify how and when it got ripped off of which Bitcoins perhaps the Bitcoin Foundation can make those worthless for the time being or until it's sorted out.

The Bitcoin Foundation doesn't control my node (or anyone's node).  Bitcoin is a consensus system.  So you want it so whatever coins the Foundation says are worthless, become worthless.  You can't possibly see the problem with having an entity with an off switch to the entire Bitcoin network, an absolute central power in a "decentralized network"?

Can't think of any way that could be possibly be abused?  Nobody will agree to a Bitcoin where a single entity can at will freeze coins.  Bitcoins works on consensus if people don't agree to that fork, it will never be used.

The exploitation of MtGox to the point it fails is in itself an abuse that should not be allowed to succeed.

[soy]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

[freebit13]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

What if by the time the mugger is caught, he no longer holds your cash in his wallet?

[leopard2]

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

You are apparently not sober.

If you had any common sense you would recognize that this example is unrealistic. In the real world, the mugger will not be caught immediately, but spend those bills before he gets caught. 

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

Without such a provision, trade would not be possible. Any grocer would have to fear that, at some point, the police seizes some of his money because the mugger said he bought some groceries at that store, using the stolen money.

BTC has to be the same way, or it is not electronic cash. No one, absolutely fucking no one would accept BTC anymore, since he could never be sure whether some of that BTC is tainted and gets seized or redlisted later on.

But I have a feeling you know this already, who is paying you for promoting redlisting? 

[mgburks77]

Back to the missing Bitcoins and the original question.  Identify the Bitcoins and stop them in their tracks.  Whether double spent or stolen, mine are mine and if MtGox sent them to someone else that's theft.

Because Bitcoin is decentralized.  You say "stop" those "bad" Bitcoins.  Who stops them and who decided which ones are bad?

The central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What is the level of proof?  What if someone lied and just said coins were stolen?  Is there an appeal process?  How does this agency pay for itself (you don't think thousands of people investigating millions of disputes a year is going to be done for freee)?  Maybe we should put a 2% tax into the network on each transactions to fund the central agency of bitcoin thefts and disputes?  What happens when a government puts guns to the heads of people in the agency and says "forcibly confiscate the coins of these political disidents"?

Bitcoin is decentralized.  There is no appeal to a central authority.
Bitcoin is like cash.  If you leave your wallet on the subway and someone steals it you aren't getting the money back.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.
Bitcoin is like cash.  Start treating it like cash.

Amen

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

What if you got your cash from the grocery store in change instead of a bank? Do you have the serial numbers then?

I mean if you think using a bank is preferable, be my guest...

[soy]

I take $100 out of an ATM in $20 bills.  The ATM has recorded those serial numbers.  I immediately get mugged.  I identify the mugger to the police.  The money is seized.  The twenty dollar bills are identified as those I withdrew from the ATM.  The mugger gets tried, convicted, goes to jail or gets counseling (liberals) and I get my $20 bills back.

You are apparently not sober.

If you had any common sense you would recognize that this example is unrealistic. In the real world, the mugger will not be caught immediately, but spend those bills before he gets caught. 

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

Without such a provision, trade would not be possible. Any grocer would have to fear that, at some point, the police seizes some of his money because the mugger said he bought some groceries at that store, using the stolen money.

BTC has to be the same way, or it is not electronic cash. No one, absolutely fucking no one would accept BTC anymore, since he could never be sure whether some of that BTC is tainted and gets seized or redlisted later on.

But I have a feeling you know this already, who is paying you for promoting redlisting? 

No one.  I put half my IRA into Bitcoin a year ago.  I kept one third at MtGox.  I have never bought anything illegal with a Bitcoin or fraction thereof.  I registered my MtGox acount with fincen.  I have nothing to fear from scrutiny.   Criminals do.  

Tho I can understand not wanting exposure about one's life or finances.  A member of the family sat on a federal grand jury that indicted a very powerful political boss many years ago.   One learns there is nothing that can be hidden from their minions.  All politics are local was said by a former speaker of the house.

[leopard2]

btw. the solution is not asking for more fascism but good old fiduciary trust; using segregated storage such as proposed by Coinkite. Malled transactions would fail in such a case, due to the fact that people could steal only from themselves

segregated = good, public = bad, this is why taxpayer money gets goxxed all the time,

like the Spanish proverb, paying with someone else's money is easy.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Not sure about US law (maybe D&T can comment?), but German law is crystal clear on that. If someone accepts money in good faith (as part of a legal transaction) then he owns that money. It is not possible to legally acquire stolen goods, but money is an exception (§935 BGB).

That is my understanding.  Good faith is the important part.  Obviously it doesn't protect someone who knows (or should have a reasonable suspicion) that the money is the proceeds of a crime.   Doing otherwise would undermine the confidence in the currency, much like the OP proposal would fatally undermine the confidence in bitcoin.  If a merchant, user, or exchange can accept Bitcoins in good faith and then have those coins rendered worthless through no fault of their own .... why would they want to accept a bitcoin?  Even if they are interested in crypto-currency they would just support a coin without that risk.