How to put Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy in Japan.

[Nagle]

(I previously posted this in Service Discussion. Today, someone suggested I repost it in Legal. It seems timely.)

Here is a guide to bankruptcy in Japan, from Japan's largest law firm, Nishimura & Asahi:

IV. Liquidation under Bankruptcy Code

A. Commencement of Proceedings

An application can be made if (i) the debtor is unable to pay its debts generally or (ii) the liability of the debtor exceeds the value of the assets of debtor. Suspension of payment by the debtor shall be considered that the debtor is unable to pay its debts generally. An application for bankruptcy proceedings can be made not only by the debtor but also by creditors against the debtor.
...
D. Administration of Bankruptcy

1. Appointment of Administrator

The administrator is generally a practicing attorney. The administrator takes immediate possession of the debtor's assets (with the exception of assets which are exempt from the estate), administering and managing the bankruptcy estate until the final distribution of assets. Upon receiving permission from the court or the supervisory committee as described below, the administrator may convert all such assets into cash and deposit such in an appropriate bank.

Bankruptcies start fast - a week or two from filing to bankruptcy.

This will require a lawyer in Japan. It's what normally happens to companies in Japan who don't pay their bills.

Depositors with Mt. Gox may be able to argue that they have preferred status as secured creditors, because the Mt. Gox terms of service claim that depositor funds are kept in bank accounts separate from the company's own funds. So they should be paid before landlords, employees, etc.

[1714846362]

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[1714846362]

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[repentance]

Overview of the Japanese insolvency process, to help manage creditor expectations (it varies in some respects from the typical Western process, especially in terms of transparency and creditor input).

http://www.bingham.com/Publications/Files/2012/02/A-Practical-Guide-to-Japanese-Insolvency-Procedures

[Nagle]

Overview of the Japanese insolvency process, to help manage creditor expectations (it varies in some respects from the typical Western process, especially in terms of transparency and creditor input).

http://www.bingham.com/Publications/Files/2012/02/A-Practical-Guide-to-Japanese-Insolvency-Procedures

That Bingham paper is oriented more towards large corporate bankruptcies where the ongoing business is worth much more than the liquidation value, and where the business capital came from lending banks. That's not the case here. Mt Gox is more like a routine failed small/medium business liquidation.

[CompNsci]

Starting to prepare to do this -- at early stages. Please PM me if you have a substantial debt owed to you by Mt. Gox (let's say $20,000 USD or 40 BTC or more) and wish to join in an involuntary bankruptcy proceeding.

I know there is much discussion here and elsewhere about the wisdom of this, etc. My view is that it will take some time and is likely best to start now.

[raskul]

start as soon as possible. whatever the outcome - it will take years (reimbursement), so patience is advised.
fact is, do something you have a chance of reimbursement. do nothing and you will never be reimbursed.

[V4Vendettas]

@CompNsci sent PM. As you say its going to take sometime to get this moving so best start now. Of course if Gox sorts its life out in the mean time nothing lost but time while we are in the early stages at least. 

[vayvanne]

PMed.

[papamoi]

hi

i ve sent pm also

keep me posted

thanks

[Nagle]

If someone is actually doing this, don't dawdle. Get it done within days.

(I don't have any money in Mt. Gox. But I've collected debts in high 6 figures across borders before.)

[CompNsci]

It is underway. I will be posting more broadly to recruit more plaintiffs tomorrow, but feel free to PM me in the meantime.

[rochkey]

Hi,

Keep me posted as well.

Thanks.

[papamoi]

hi

so as he has filled against bankruptcy ,what is the choice remaining to us?

[Nagle]

hi

so as he has filled against bankruptcy ,what is the choice remaining to us?

Now you really need a lawyer in Japan. Japan has six types of bankruptcy. Mt. Gox is probably trying for civil reconstruction, which is a debtor-in-possession scheme much like Chapter 11.  However, in all bankruptcies in Japan, there is a court-appointed supervisor, which will be a lawyer chosen by the court.  This is short of full trusteeship, and existing management remains partially in control.

The court can decide to put in a supervisor or a trustee. Some of Mt. Gox's creditors need to be in touch with the court. Like now.

[Nagle]

More info from Forbes.: "Mt. Gox sought protection from creditors under Japan’s Civil Rehabilitation Law.  Under the law,  which is similar to Chapter 11 under U.S. Bankruptcy law, the company will be able to continue as an ongoing entity while an independently-appointed official supervises the restructuring of operations."

That's not good. It means Karpeles is still in charge. Of the six types of bankruptcy in Japan, civil rehabilitation is the only one that leaves existing management in place. There's now a court-appointed supervisor, though. Anyone know who it is?

[semzor]

pmed

[CompNsci]

While we no longer need to force them into bankruptcy, we will continue to employ an attorney in Japan to represent the interests of the depositors.

Evidently any creditor can demand certain information from the trustee as well as make other motions.

In particular I am anxious to have the attorney working on protecting the interests of bitcoin holders.

[CompNsci]

That's not good. It means Karpeles is still in charge. Of the six types of bankruptcy in Japan, civil rehabilitation is the only one that leaves existing management in place. There's now a court-appointed supervisor, though. Anyone know who it is?

I think a motion to remove Karpeles, given the history of misleading statements and losing 740k BTC, is likely to be successful.

[ISAWHIM]

Filing for "Bankruptcy Protection" and filing for "Bankruptcy" are not the same...

Gox filed for "Bankruptcy Protection", so that his assets will not be lost. This will allow him to operate, with frozen assets, once an actual investigation has occurred, to prove "theft claims". You can't just say "I am bankrupt", you have to actually prove it. I can tell you right now, that the numbers proposed are inaccurate, and not the way "asset value" is actually reported.

Those who deposited 10,000 BTC when the price was $10/BTC, have an asset-value of only $100,000 USD, not the value of $600/BTC at the current price it was lost. (Because they did not "realize" {cash-out} for that value.) That is one thing that is "off" in the estimates. They may also have to UNDO the last few trades, because the BTC was not there to trade, for the money that it was offered for. That will break a few hearts, and heal some others. If the BTC wasn't there, and you gave $12,000 buying it, YOU do not own those BTC, and that person does not own that currency. They lost the BTC, and you get back your currency.

In any event, this is still going to be a messy resolution. One which will not happen over-night, but one which will have a semi-agreeable resolution, because he didn't just run away. He stayed to protect us, and his investors.

There is also the issue of "what funds were stolen", "when they were stolen", and "when they stopped being stolen". In addition to the fact that some of those "may be recoverable/accountable", because they know WHO they went to, by accounts and by IP's, on some respect. However, this filing HAD to be done, to "freeze the assets", to make for a proper legal investigation, and to protect US and the INVESTORS. While still allowing him to operate, if it can be proven that the "issue has been resolved". Also if it can be proven that the income from trades, could potentially "cover losses", once the "losses are factually realized", which can only happen after an official investigation.

For all anyone knows, the coins could just be in another wallet, still in his possession. Which is what a full legal investigation and he, will have to prove otherwise.

That also allows him to "sell the assets", which would cover most losses, as part of the sale, thus, reducing the price he could sell the exchange for. (If it were to be consolidated, that would be to simply accept all loss, which would STILL have to be covered.)

We have to wait for the "call center" to open, to confirm our losses. Thieves will obviously not be calling. Thus, those will not be counted as part of the loss. That is good for us, because it gives us a better chance at getting back all of our funds.

Not to mention, there were funds available, after the theft had stopped. Those funds, after that date, will be 100% returned. Which an investigation still needs to show. We were not investors. We were customers. Investors are the ones who are at the greatest risk of loss here. Customers, will all have to be paid back, in some way. Even if this was truly just a "Bankruptcy", it does not absolve him from paying back losses. It simply acknowledges the loss, for further legal proceedings to occur.

[bitcoinvest]

We have to wait for the "call center" to open, to confirm our losses. Thieves will obviously not be calling. Thus, those will not be counted as part of the loss. That is good for us, because it gives us a better chance at getting back all of our funds.

Not to mention, there were funds available, after the theft had stopped. Those funds, after that date, will be 100% returned. Which an investigation still needs to show. We were not investors. We were customers. Investors are the ones who are at the greatest risk of loss here. Customers, will all have to be paid back, in some way. Even if this was truly just a "Bankruptcy", it does not absolve him from paying back losses. It simply acknowledges the loss, for further legal proceedings to occur.

So after this what do you propose ? I had some fiat withdrawal > 6.000€ initialized in January that did not arrived and BTC in my account.
What i best for me to do  now?

You think i will get back my withdrawal 100% ? And what about the BTC.

[Nagle]

No, you do not need to "wait for the call center to open". If you had significant funds in Mt. Gox, you need legal representation in Japan now, to be involved in the bankruptcy.