Anyone who had btc on gox since 2011 could be affected

[dynodog]

Many on here think that only the people who currently have money or bitcoin with gox will be directly affected by a gox bankruptcy.  That may not be the case.  According to Jesse Powell, the CEO of Kraken, 800,000 bitcoin were stolen in June 2011.  Instead of informing the public, gox decided to essentially run a ponzi scheme from that date forward through which it attempted to reach solvency by generating fees through transactions and possible arbitrage. 

The bankruptcy trustee could determine that everything that occurred since that June 2011 date should be unwound, and that anyone who withdrew money or bitcoin from that will need to return those net profits to bankruptcy estate. 

Don't believe me?  Do you think the people who were smart enough, or lucky enough, to pull money out of their Bernie Madoff accounts got to keep those profits?  No, the bankruptcy trustee sued every single one of those people and required them to put back into the bankruptcy estate all of their net profits that they made.  And it meant nothing that they were completely unaware of the fraud.   

So if you are one of those people who had money or bitcoin on gox and made a profit on the transaction, which is now sitting in your wallet or your bank account, don't be too sure you want gox to die. 

[whtchocla7e]

Nobody tells Bitcoin what to do.

[hostmaster]

Nobody tells Bitcoin what to do.

Agreed. 

[kolev]

Many on here think that only the people who currently have money or bitcoin with gox will be directly affected by a gox bankruptcy.  That may not be the case.  According to Jesse Powell, the CEO of Kraken, 800,000 bitcoin were stolen in June 2011.  Instead of informing the public, gox decided to essentially run a ponzi scheme from that date forward through which it attempted to reach solvency by generating fees through transactions and possible arbitrage. 

The bankruptcy trustee could determine that everything that occurred since that June 2011 date should be unwound, and that anyone who withdrew money or bitcoin from that will need to return those net profits to bankruptcy estate. 

Don't believe me?  Do you think the people who were smart enough, or lucky enough, to pull money out of their Bernie Madoff accounts got to keep those profits?  No, the bankruptcy trustee sued every single one of those people and required them to put back into the bankruptcy estate all of their net profits that they made.  And it meant nothing that they were completely unaware of the fraud.   

So if you are one of those people who had money or bitcoin on gox and made a profit on the transaction, which is now sitting in your wallet or your bank account, don't be too sure you want gox to die. 

Yes, this is possible. The law allows going back as far as 3 years!

[grifferz]

How about we revisit this thread once we actually know

• the scale of the loss at MtGox
• whether anyone is going to prosecute
• if that prosecution is even going to consider bitcoin funds

because right now I think it is a stretch that any government is going to be interested in fighting for someone's bitcoins, leaving this to private litigation.

[Bobsurplus]

rewind never going to happen!

[dynodog]

The net-net is that if you were still in Gox, you are so screwed.

no doubt.  unless satoshi decides to break open his 1.2mm bitcoin rainy day fund (and if ever there was a time to do it...)

[TheFootMan]

Many on here think that only the people who currently have money or bitcoin with gox will be directly affected by a gox bankruptcy.  That may not be the case.  According to Jesse Powell, the CEO of Kraken, 800,000 bitcoin were stolen in June 2011.  Instead of informing the public, gox decided to essentially run a ponzi scheme from that date forward through which it attempted to reach solvency by generating fees through transactions and possible arbitrage. 

The bankruptcy trustee could determine that everything that occurred since that June 2011 date should be unwound, and that anyone who withdrew money or bitcoin from that will need to return those net profits to bankruptcy estate. 

Don't believe me?  Do you think the people who were smart enough, or lucky enough, to pull money out of their Bernie Madoff accounts got to keep those profits?  No, the bankruptcy trustee sued every single one of those people and required them to put back into the bankruptcy estate all of their net profits that they made.  And it meant nothing that they were completely unaware of the fraud.   

So if you are one of those people who had money or bitcoin on gox and made a profit on the transaction, which is now sitting in your wallet or your bank account, don't be too sure you want gox to die. 

Reversing bitcoin transactions? How would you go about that? Ask nicely? Print full size news papers ads?

[gollum]

The whole world economy is a f-n ponzi scheme,
but it works as long as most people don't think it is a ponzi scheme.

[dynodog]

 

Reversing bitcoin transactions? How would you go about that? Ask nicely? Print full size news papers ads?

My guess is gox has the names, addresses of those who had accounts there.  The Madoff bankruptcy trustee didn't run newspapers ads or ask nicely, he filed lawsuits against every person who took out more than he put in. 

If you put in $100,000, and took out $500,000, you owe $400,000. 

[TheLittleDuke]

You clearly do not understand what "non-repudiation" means...

The only claw-back that will happen is the ones related to any fiat payments Mark and Co made within the last N months in the run-up to bankruptcy.

[TheFootMan]

 

Reversing bitcoin transactions? How would you go about that? Ask nicely? Print full size news papers ads?

My guess is gox has the names, addresses of those who had accounts there.  The Madoff bankruptcy trustee didn't run newspapers ads or ask nicely, he filed lawsuits against every person who took out more than he put in. 

If you put in $100,000, and took out $500,000, you owe $400,000. 

Do you have a bitcoinaddress I can transfer those 400K to?

[toknormal]

That is just insane.

Imagine making a legitimate trade on Gox years ago and withdrawing fiat, then being sued for it back years later. I just can't imagine that would ever get anywhere. For a start there are a host of countries involve where local legislation may apply and money protection laws etc.

Gox wasn't a ponzy scheme, they were just under capitalised. By trading on there, customers of Gox could not be said to be "participating" in the mal-running of the business, so I think the OP's point is purely hypothetical and an imaginary stretch.

There is no comparison with Madoff - the two cases are not remotely like each other. Madoff was running an illegal business model. Gox's business model was perfectly legal, it was just badly managed to the point where it became catastrophic.

[Adrian-x]

The net-net is that if you were still in Gox, you are so screwed.

no doubt.  unless satoshi decides to break open his 1.2mm bitcoin rainy day fund (and if ever there was a time to do it...)

Oh yes he's the guy who supports bank bailouts from day 1

There is no comparison with Madoff - the two cases are not remotely like each other. Madoff was running an illegal business model. Gox's business model was perfectly legal, it was just badly managed to the point where it became catastrophic.

Gag orders and subpoena aside  Madoff had the support of regulators where MK was having bank accounts with millions frozen.

The only problem here is there is no central bank what makes it different this time is we don't need one.

[V4Vendettas]

Nice!! So I loose 73 Goxcoins and also I'm going to get sued for some 5000 Euros.

Mark just when I think my ass raping cant get any worse. Got to hand it to you mark buddy.

[crazy_rabbit]

Except, it's pretty clearly not a ponzi scheme. They were running a fractional reserve which is a thing in and of itself. If it were a ponzi scheme, people would have had to have been promised some sort of unrealistic return on their investment, or any return on their investment, which mtGox didn't offer (they didn't offer interest for example). So you couldn't make the argument that new investors were paying old investors, since old investors balances never changed because of new investors. It's clearly not a ponzi.

[TheFootMan]

Nice!! So I loose 73 Goxcoins and also I'm going to get sued for some 5000 Euros.

Mark just when I think my ass raping cant get any worse. Got to hand it to you mark buddy.

Ye, and also there's links to CP in the blockchain, so when the IRS raids your house, they will take all your electronics and charge you for CP posession with intent to distribute, and then on top of that slap you a fine for not being FinCen registered for the GPU miner you ran in 2011. Probably you'll end up in some sex offender register and never get a job at a school, become a police, a senator, an astronaut or an NBA star.

Because of bitcoin.

[V4Vendettas]

Nice!! So I loose 73 Goxcoins and also I'm going to get sued for some 5000 Euros.

Mark just when I think my ass raping cant get any worse. Got to hand it to you mark buddy.

Ye, and also there's links to CP in the blockchain, so when the IRS raids your house, they will take all your electronics and charge you for CP posession with intent to distribute, and then on top of that slap you a fine for not being FinCen registered for the GPU miner you ran in 2011. Probably you'll end up in some sex offender register and never get a job at a school, become a police, a senator, an astronaut or an NBA star.

Because of bitcoin.

LMFAO MT.Gox the home of 1,000,000 Childporn users. I'm an Idiot for using GOx but you..is mommy also your sister?

Not everyone is an American you know  

No no just because I'm not american it does not automatic make me a terrorist as well as a Pedo. So don't start with that next.


Edit: I am not insinuating that all Americans are the product of incest etc so chill out.

[Bit_Happy]

rewind never going to happen!

FYI: Gox did a "rewind" in 2011, reversing the trades that took BTC down to a penny.

[C10H15N]

What is this Gox fuckery of which you speak?