[ANN][AKC] Anti-Keiser Coin REVAMPED ~900M Coins!

[Manwe]

Do you see anyone new is joining this thread? No, only us, the old holders. You can not abandon us when you are still using this coin.
Go to make a new coin with your great idea, and great plan of marketing. I won't complain if AKC is dead in this way.

No, but I do see twice the amount of NETHASH.

I can make it to multiply 10, but so what? Do you know what will happen if people know the rewards they are mining will be divided 10?

Tell me Manwe who is buying AKC right now?

What market is there right now?

Then who will buy AKC? What market will be there?

Why no make it to be 100Bil, since you think it has been mined too much?

[Kheg]

Here's the way I see it folks... if you DON'T change anything about the coin, what you've mind will be worth exactly ZERO since no exchange will pick up a coin that will be completely mined out a month from now.  A month from now nobody will be mining it, so even if you had set up a private buyer for your stash, they'd never receive it because there'd be no network to make the transfer or confirm the transaction with.

Make no changes, AKC is worth 0.00000000 satoshis.  Period.  End of story.

The changes proposed by the devs are ... let's say ... a wee bit overbroad.  But they ARE a step in the right direction.

#1 - They DON'T devalue current holdings of anybody that mined.  Why?  
- Current holdings != total final money supply.  It's only a long-term stigma attached to the value of the coin that people need to get over.
- AKC **has no exchange** currently.  It has no tangible historical market value.  If anyone bought/sold AKC privately, then yes they have a vested interest, but that's not a public tangible historical value on the coin.
- Because of these things the value of AKC isn't even set.  It's somewhere between 0 (which is a given with the current coin parameters) and ? (depending on how it forks out).

#2 - There's no need for 10 billion coins, but to be fair for new incoming miners the total coin pool SHOULD be increased.
- Think about it, all of you current miners basically had what amounts to a month of exclusive access to the coin.  If the devs fork it in such a way to extend the remainder of the original 900 million coins out to, say, 5 years, that means in a month of mining all of you will have had the luxury of mining roughly 50% of the coin exclusively, and would profit ridiculously from any pricing effects because of it.  Would new miners mine or buyers buy AKC if they knew that?  I think WE incumbents need to be willing to compromise some here too.

Perhaps a compromise would be in order.

Extend the coin supply by 33%, that would put us at 1.2 billion total AKC (adding 225 million coins), and reduce the block reward by 25% immediately followed by an aggressive halving at a schedule to bring the coin to a 3 or 5 mine-able year supply (depending on which is more feasible).

- This will allow the coin to remain mine-able well past the original 2 month schedule.
- The extended coin supply will partially mitigate the perceived heavy "premine" that the early adopters get, but will still be small enough that it will give early adopters a bonus against the perceived dilution.
- The immediate block reward reduction and fairly aggressive halving schedule should keep the coin value in check against both the dilution as well as the the total coin supply.
- The coin parameters should now be considerably more reasonable in general for the longevity of the coin as well as potential exchange and marketing pickup
- It's not as radical a departure from the initial AKC design, but it does lose some of the flavor of the coin.  The good thing is that it still holds true to what AKC is.

I apologize to the AKC devs for not getting involved in the process earlier when asked for input.  I've had a lot on my plate, and I really didn't want to get too involved in a project like this when I don't have time to commit to it.  I love the concept of AKC - a coin that's FAIR without the notion of making a QUICK BUCK at the EXPENSE OF OTHERS (see what I did there folks?).  That's why I'm speaking up now.

This coin is going to get forked one way or another people.  Either you can all work on making the coin viable, or you're probably going to end up with a pair of coins that nobody is going to want.

[vdaevski]

No market will accept this coin if it is already mined, and it will be mined if we don't update even before it have a chance to go on market

[Manwe]

Manwe what's the plan ? go back to 900 milions
and after ?
o yes, mine all coins in 2 weeks
and
After ? take this coin and let people see you have coins ? you think it can work to create a market and a value for this coin ?

Go back to 900 milions, you will have our supporting.
Go to 10 Bil, you will lose us, and you don't know if you can have new users.

[renfeit]

Here's the way I see it folks... if you DON'T change anything about the coin, what you've mind will be worth exactly ZERO since no exchange will pick up a coin that will be completely mined out a month from now.  A month from now nobody will be mining it, so even if you had set up a private buyer for your stash, they'd never receive it because there'd be no network to make the transfer or confirm the transaction with.

Make no changes, AKC is worth 0.00000000 satoshis.  Period.  End of story.

The changes proposed by the devs are ... let's say ... a wee bit overbroad.  But they ARE a step in the right direction.

#1 - They DON'T devalue current holdings of anybody that mined.  Why?  
- Current holdings != total final money supply.  It's only a long-term stigma attached to the value of the coin that people need to get over.
- AKC **has no exchange** currently.  It has no tangible historical market value.  If anyone bought/sold AKC privately, then yes they have a vested interest, but that's not a public tangible historical value on the coin.
- Because of these things the value of AKC isn't even set.  It's somewhere between 0 (which is a given with the current coin parameters) and ? (depending on how it forks out).

#2 - There's no need for 10 billion coins, but to be fair for new incoming miners the total coin pool SHOULD be increased.
- Think about it, all of you current miners basically had what amounts to a month of exclusive access to the coin.  If the devs fork it in such a way to extend the remainder of the original 900 million coins out to, say, 5 years, that means in a month of mining all of you will have had the luxury of mining roughly 50% of the coin exclusively, and would profit ridiculously from any pricing effects because of it.  Would new miners mine or buyers buy AKC if they knew that?  I think WE incumbents need to be willing to compromise some here too.

Perhaps a compromise would be in order.

Extend the coin supply by 33%, that would put us at 1.2 billion total AKC (adding 225 million coins), and reduce the block reward by 25% immediately followed by an aggressive halving at a schedule to bring the coin to a 3 or 5 mine-able year supply (depending on which is more feasible).

- This will allow the coin to remain mine-able well past the original 2 month schedule.
- The extended coin supply will partially mitigate the perceived heavy "premine" that the early adopters get, but will still be small enough that it will give early adopters a bonus against the perceived dilution.
- The immediate block reward reduction and fairly aggressive halving schedule should keep the coin value in check against both the dilution as well as the the total coin supply.
- The coin parameters should now be considerably more reasonable in general for the longevity of the coin as well as potential exchange and marketing pickup
- It's not as radical a departure from the initial AKC design, but it does lose some of the flavor of the coin.  The good thing is that it still holds true to what AKC is.

I apologize to the AKC devs for not getting involved in the process earlier when asked for input.  I've had a lot on my plate, and I really didn't want to get too involved in a project like this when I don't have time to commit to it.  I love the concept of AKC - a coin that's FAIR without the notion of making a QUICK BUCK at the EXPENSE OF OTHERS (see what I did there folks?).  That's why I'm speaking up now.

This coin is going to get forked one way or another people.  Either you can all work on making the coin viable, or you're probably going to end up with a pair of coins that nobody is going to want.

It's an interesting theory and a good starts to discuss, agree with your purpose but i've a question now
400 milions are mined, who want to start mining a 1.2b coins ? 1/3 is mined, what community will have a coin like this ?

[renfeit]

Here's the way I see it folks... if you DON'T change anything about the coin, what you've mind will be worth exactly ZERO since no exchange will pick up a coin that will be completely mined out a month from now.  A month from now nobody will be mining it, so even if you had set up a private buyer for your stash, they'd never receive it because there'd be no network to make the transfer or confirm the transaction with.

Make no changes, AKC is worth 0.00000000 satoshis.  Period.  End of story.

The changes proposed by the devs are ... let's say ... a wee bit overbroad.  But they ARE a step in the right direction.

#1 - They DON'T devalue current holdings of anybody that mined.  Why?  
- Current holdings != total final money supply.  It's only a long-term stigma attached to the value of the coin that people need to get over.
- AKC **has no exchange** currently.  It has no tangible historical market value.  If anyone bought/sold AKC privately, then yes they have a vested interest, but that's not a public tangible historical value on the coin.
- Because of these things the value of AKC isn't even set.  It's somewhere between 0 (which is a given with the current coin parameters) and ? (depending on how it forks out).

#2 - There's no need for 10 billion coins, but to be fair for new incoming miners the total coin pool SHOULD be increased.
- Think about it, all of you current miners basically had what amounts to a month of exclusive access to the coin.  If the devs fork it in such a way to extend the remainder of the original 900 million coins out to, say, 5 years, that means in a month of mining all of you will have had the luxury of mining roughly 50% of the coin exclusively, and would profit ridiculously from any pricing effects because of it.  Would new miners mine or buyers buy AKC if they knew that?  I think WE incumbents need to be willing to compromise some here too.

Perhaps a compromise would be in order.

Extend the coin supply by 33%, that would put us at 1.2 billion total AKC (adding 225 million coins), and reduce the block reward by 25% immediately followed by an aggressive halving at a schedule to bring the coin to a 3 or 5 mine-able year supply (depending on which is more feasible).

- This will allow the coin to remain mine-able well past the original 2 month schedule.
- The extended coin supply will partially mitigate the perceived heavy "premine" that the early adopters get, but will still be small enough that it will give early adopters a bonus against the perceived dilution.
- The immediate block reward reduction and fairly aggressive halving schedule should keep the coin value in check against both the dilution as well as the the total coin supply.
- The coin parameters should now be considerably more reasonable in general for the longevity of the coin as well as potential exchange and marketing pickup
- It's not as radical a departure from the initial AKC design, but it does lose some of the flavor of the coin.  The good thing is that it still holds true to what AKC is.

I apologize to the AKC devs for not getting involved in the process earlier when asked for input.  I've had a lot on my plate, and I really didn't want to get too involved in a project like this when I don't have time to commit to it.  I love the concept of AKC - a coin that's FAIR without the notion of making a QUICK BUCK at the EXPENSE OF OTHERS (see what I did there folks?).  That's why I'm speaking up now.

This coin is going to get forked one way or another people.  Either you can all work on making the coin viable, or you're probably going to end up with a pair of coins that nobody is going to want.

It's an interesting theory and a good starts to discuss, agree with your purpose but i've a question now
400 milions are mined, who want to start mining a 1.2b coins ? 1/3 is mined, what community will have a coin like this ?

maybe 5 bilions ?

[Manwe]

If you are not going to accept the vote, why you started a vote? There is no option called 5 billions!

[Kheg]

It's an interesting theory and a good starts to discuss, agree with your purpose but i've a question now
400 milions are mined, who want to start mining a 1.2b coins ? 1/3 is mined, what community will have a coin like this ?

This is the hurdle that this or any incumbent coin would face in this position.  You see the backlash of the current coin supporters, however losing them and/or causing a second fork of the coin would be detrimental to the coin in name.  As has been said, you'd just be better off starting a whole brand new coin.  Having existing people that support the coin is necessary - without them you'd be fighting an even bigger uphill battle, and again, you'd just be better off abandoning the coin all together and starting from scratch.

The only major thing going for it in this scenario is that it's not a private premine.  That helps a lot, at least in my eyes.  I would think it would in everyone's as well.

To answer your follow up question, ideally I wouldn't put the coin extension past 2 billion coins.  That puts the coin at 20% mined rather than 33%, but again, the higher you put that number the higher the perceived dilution of the current shares that people hold and hence the more resistance to any such plan you'll get from current supporters.

It's a balancing act that gets to be played.  You can't make everybody happy here which is why I said EVERYBODY will need to compromise.

[Kheg]

If you are not going to accept the vote, why you started a vote? There is no option called 5 billions!

Manwe - this thread has turned into an open dialog as to how to save AKC as a whole.  The vote is non-withstanding at this point, I'm sure pretty much everybody can agree.  Harping on the same thing over and over again isn't being constructive to the situation.

The devs are trying to understand the situation better and get a handle on things.  I'm pretty sure they understand your frustration along with everybody else's.  You have to understand that they're probably a bit frustrated right now too.

[Manwe]

If you are not going to accept the vote, why you started a vote? There is no option called 5 billions!

Manwe - this thread has turned into an open dialog as to how to save AKC as a whole.  The vote is non-withstanding at this point, I'm sure pretty much everybody can agree.  Harping on the same thing over and over again isn't being constructive to the situation.

The devs are trying to understand the situation better and get a handle on things.  I'm pretty sure they understand your frustration along with everybody else's.  You have to understand that they're probably a bit frustrated right now too.

OK.

But I just hate they said like, "Oh, you want fast money.", "Oh, you mined a lot, of course you want money."

That is mean.

I swear they will lose us, at least me, if they go it alone to make the max supply to be 10 Billion. In that way, I will use the old wallet with Zero value.

So if only want new users, why not make a new coin directly?

[Anti-Keiser-Coin]

We need to consider some realistic situations. Re-read Kheg's post I think he has some good fundamentals.

How much are you guys willing to devalue to to make this coin work? 10b, 5b, 2b 1.5b?

How long do you guys think a viable mining time would be to allow us as the development team to gain some interest?

We need to arrange these numbers in a very particular format to do our best to make this coin a real possibility. Any input and theories are CRITICAL at this point.

Kheg, thank you so much for taking the time to express your thoughts in the manner that you did. I hope we aren't pulling you away from anything that is more important at this time as we know how busy you are. But, we definitely love the fact that you are vested in the ideals and the progression of this coin.

We need to figure out something and fast. I can re-launch a poll/vote for different parameters, but we need to have this figured out by 12k block if we want to avoid forking.

[Kheg]

If you are not going to accept the vote, why you started a vote? There is no option called 5 billions!

Manwe - this thread has turned into an open dialog as to how to save AKC as a whole.  The vote is non-withstanding at this point, I'm sure pretty much everybody can agree.  Harping on the same thing over and over again isn't being constructive to the situation.

The devs are trying to understand the situation better and get a handle on things.  I'm pretty sure they understand your frustration along with everybody else's.  You have to understand that they're probably a bit frustrated right now too.

OK.

But I just hate they said like, "Oh, you want fast money.", "Oh, you mined a lot, of course you want money."

That is mean.

I swear they will lose us, at least me, if they go it alone to make the max supply to be 10 Billion. In that way, I will use the old wallet with Zero value.

So if only want new users, why not make a new coin directly?

They don't want only new users.  They want to make the changes FAIR enough to attract new users, but also to keep the existing users happy.

As renfeit asked a few posts up, what newcomer would mine a coin that would have already had 1/3 of its coins already mined in a month? On the surface the answer would be nobody since it looks like the easy money is long gone (yes, I said it - no offense meant).  THIS is what the devs are trying to figure out... how to make THAT work with as little negative impact to the current holders (you) as possible.

Like I said, we are ALL going to have to compromise some if we want to make this coin work for the long term.  Otherwise you'll have spent your time mining something completely worthless anyway.

[Manwe]

If you are not going to accept the vote, why you started a vote? There is no option called 5 billions!

Manwe - this thread has turned into an open dialog as to how to save AKC as a whole.  The vote is non-withstanding at this point, I'm sure pretty much everybody can agree.  Harping on the same thing over and over again isn't being constructive to the situation.

The devs are trying to understand the situation better and get a handle on things.  I'm pretty sure they understand your frustration along with everybody else's.  You have to understand that they're probably a bit frustrated right now too.

OK.

But I just hate they said like, "Oh, you want fast money.", "Oh, you mined a lot, of course you want money."

That is mean.

I swear they will lose us, at least me, if they go it alone to make the max supply to be 10 Billion. In that way, I will use the old wallet with Zero value.

So if only want new users, why not make a new coin directly?

They don't want only new users.  They want to make the changes FAIR enough to attract new users, but also to keep the existing users happy.

As renfeit asked a few posts up, what newcomer would mine a coin that would have already had 1/3 of its coins already mined in a month? On the surface the answer would be nobody since it looks like the easy money is long gone (yes, I said it - no offense meant).  THIS is what the devs are trying to figure out... how to make THAT work with as little negative impact to the current holders (you) as possible.

Like I said, we are ALL going to have to compromise some if we want to make this coin work for the long term.  Otherwise you'll have spent your time mining something completely worthless anyway.

Yes, your suggestion is negotiable.

[Anti-Keiser-Coin]

Alright we have looked the numbers. If we want a 50/50 compromise we can try something like this:

We will update new wallet to drop coins per block down to 20k as original.

We will then implement a new update after first 24k blocks to reduce halving to BLOCK /1.1

This will give us ~3.11999999 bilion coins over ~9.1 years of total mining time.

How do you guys feel about this?

[renfeit]

Alright we have looked the numbers. If we want a 50/50 compromise we can try something like this:

We will update new wallet to drop coins per block down to 20k as original.

We will then implement a new update after first 24k blocks to reduce halving to BLOCK /1.1

This will give us ~3.11999999 bilion coins over ~9.1 years of total mining time.

How do you guys feel about this?

need to spec that the 24k th halve is 1.1 yet
so first 12k block with 40k reward
second 12k block with 20k reward
third 12k block with 20k/1.1 reward
and so on
until 3.11999 bilions total coin

[Mightymoo]

Anyone interested in buying 1.4mil AKC?

[vdaevski]

Anyone interested in buying 1.4mil AKC?

I can give you 1 satoshi

[Anti-Keiser-Coin]

Anyone interested in buying 1.4mil AKC?

I can give you 1 satoshi

I got 2 satoshis on it!

[Anti-Keiser-Coin]

So we have over "50" voters.

No one has any interest in expressing an opinion?

And you guys are the only AKC market right now?

We have had a solid critique from maybe 10 people being active.

[vdaevski]

So we have over "50" voters.

No one has any interest in expressing an opinion?

And you guys are the only AKC market right now?

We have had a solid critique from maybe 10 people being active.

Make the choice, extend or kill the coin!