"Web"steading

[Bitcoin Oz]

Government beauracrats already play this game of rape and pillage without any repurcussions.

[memvola]

I don't get it. Who would use such a frivolous piece of internet-waste?

It will not be an experiment in anything, because it is not real life. I would have no qualms about getting on your bitlife servers and raping and pillaging and scamming as there are no implications. I would never consider such behavior in the real world, as it is not some imaginary libertopia.

Self governance doesn't work. Look at somalia or any other warlord controlled nation.

Wow, Somalia again, as the glaring symbol of self governance.

I know you're trolling, but in SL basically you control the land you own (correct me if I'm wrong). This "right" comes pretty natural, since owning land is analogous to owning space+bandwidth, so think of your land as a web page. There are only technical and regulatory limitations to the laws you can define. With Rassah's proposal, I'm guessing all regulatory limitations will be removed.

I think this can be pretty useful. SL has minimal utility as a chat server but if you are into the virtual thing it can get very creative. It would appeal to me if I will be able to find enough live performance. Live lessons, live music, that sort of thing. Organizers are essential.

What puts me off about SL is the real-life simulation aspect: costumes, emotes and whatnot. I have my real life already, thank you very much. (It would be more appealing to me if it was an ASCII roguelike, though I'm not your target audience.)

I don't have any new ideas unfortunately. The best thing would be if this had competitive features of its own, Bitcoin being only one of the features. Otherwise it would get stuck as yet another service exclusively for the Bitcoin community.

[BitterTea]

Government beauracrats already play this game of rape and pillage without any repurcussions.

I'm going to piggy back on your comment and quote myself from the previous page, because I don't want the point to be missed and I think it's relevant to your own:

So, what is the reason you "would never consider such behavior"? Do you forego rape and pillage because the government forces you to? Or perhaps it's that you think yourself superior in your lack of desire to do so, when in fact most people feel the same way. Those "rape and pillage" types, guess what they're attracted to - power. The same centralized power you say we need in order to protect us from rape and pillage.

[RandyFolds]

raping and pillaging and scamming as there are no implications. I would never consider such behavior in the real world, as it is not some imaginary libertopia.

Self governance doesn't work. Look at somalia or any other warlord controlled nation.

*facepalm*

So, what is the reason you "would never consider such behavior"? Do you forego rape and pillage because the government forces you to? Or perhaps it's that you think yourself superior in your lack of desire to do so, when in fact most people feel the same way. Those "rape and pillage" types, guess what they're attracted to - power. The same centralized power you say we need in order to protect us from rape and pillage.

Dude, I don't know what you are going on about. I am saying that overall, behavior on the internet is fundamentally different than that in real life and as such, this 'experiment' has no context.

To address your rant, would you rather have your neighborhood gangs squabbling over who you pay your taxes to while your children are gunned down in the fray, or would you rather just pay the man and go about your day?

[BitterTea]

To address your rant, would you rather have your neighborhood gangs squabbling over who you pay your taxes to while your children are gunned down in the fray, or would you rather just pay the man and go about your day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Read up and then get back to me with a question that doesn't consist entirely of fallacy.

[TiagoTiago]

Btw, an idea i think would be awesome to have implemented in SL, and wouldn't be any less awesome in this FreeSL thing your proposing; don't limit asset storage just to the sim hosts or other centralized options, let people choose to host their shit anywhere they want, anything from a choice of free and paid third party web storage services even hosting it on their own machine, having their shit only avaiable while they're online and getting downloaded by other people only as fast as their upload pipe allows. And make it easy to switch hosts, for things that are present on sims, disconnected from your av, store the asset URL on the sim not the asset itself (if the sim managers want they could just restrict the URLs to their own hosting service if they want); similarly for assets on your avatar, the client informs the server the URLs it wanna use and the servers decide if they wanna allow everything or restrict to specific hosts, or even only specific URLs under their control.


Of course, sim managers (and  any clients) might decide it's a good idea to cache assets locally; i don't see anything stopping them from doing that.



edit: Of course scripts would need to be stored on the sims in order to run, but if people want, they should be allowed to save the scripts elsewhere and have the sim automaticly (or when told so) update the cached copy of the sourcecode and respective bytecode. And if it finally comes with clientside thirdparty scripting (obviouslly sandboxed etc), similarly clients will hold a cached copy of the source and locally copiled bytecode (though if you gonna add client side scripting, it would also be great to have a separated type of them, "rooted" scripts, things people choose to install, kinda like Firefox's extensions, things that can do pretty much everything the user can plus twiddle with the internals directly. Obviously people should only install those they trust won't do bad things against their will.)

[TiagoTiago]

Oh, and it would be nice if you make it trully peer to peer, make sims be hostable anywhere instead of inside a self-contained grid, and the client capable of hosting a (possibly reduced capacity) full fledged sim if the user desires, so they can carry their own home wherever they go (to put sims together, instead of considering grid coordinates, have each border come with a URL for the intended neighbor sim; if the sim on the other side of the border links back, and the two sims are running compatible backends, things like shared physics over the border and moving/sharing assets (links and cached copies) seamless etc would be enabled, otherwise the border would work one way, and the client would connect to the neighbor sim when it's in drawing (or hearing or whatever) range to show what is there before the avatar crosses the border, and to make the crossing smoother.



edit: obviously for more intensive things like multisim racing etc, having the two machines close, measured in terms of speed, bandwidth and latency, would likely be quite close to top priority.

edit2: oh, and you shouldn't need to limit the intersim gateways to just the borders, you could also add arbitrarily positioned and shaped gateways kinda like the "portals" in Croquet (the two way negotiation between the sims might be a tad more complicated in this case i guess, but i think it's worth the effort)

[TiagoTiago]

(i promise this is the last post of this burst, if i think of anything that won't be suited to be just edited in i'll write it down and wait for replies here)

Btw, i think you might be interested in this idea i suggested some time ago; the thread's Just throwing an idea out there: Distributed decentralized MOO/Second Life hybrid virtual universe?

[Rassah]

Holy crap that's a lot of ideas/suggestions! Lucky for me, apparently OpenSim does a lot of this stuff already, so I won't have to learn how to mod the thing from scratch...

Regarding Randy's issues, that'll be part of the fun experiment. Sure, there won't be real life punishments, but seeing how people end up being able to deal with trolls such as yourself should be interesting. Perhaps there will be a reputation system, where being a douche damages your reputation and restricts your mobility to travel over people's territory. Maybe just a weapons system that automatically recognizes trolling behavior and blasts you our of the area. Who knows. I just want to see what pople would do if left to their own devices.

Also, awesome to know that the only thing keeping you descent in life is the threat of police authority.

[JeffK]

Also, awesome to know that the only thing keeping you descent in life is the threat of police authority.

The fact that many people express the sentiment that the only thing keeping them from stealing, raping, and pillaging is the threat of police force (or for many Christians who claim God is the source of all morality that only the threat of hell) is indeed a troubling idea

[RandyFolds]

Also, awesome to know that the only thing keeping you descent in life is the threat of police authority.

The fact that many people express the sentiment that the only thing keeping them from stealing, raping, and pillaging is the threat of police force (or for many Christians who claim God is the source of all morality that only the threat of hell) is indeed a troubling idea

I believe that concept was first brought up by BitterTea. I intended to say that a virtual environment is no basis for comparison to the real world as it lacks depth and consequences. People will not behave in a manner natural to a society because it lacks the REAL societal implications. Your libertarian second life is just another unmoderated forum -in a pretty dress- that will eventually draw the dregs of society.

o nos, i got negatives xp

[TiagoTiago]

We just gotta make it interesting enough for those we wanna keep and boring enough for the people we wanna distance from and i expect things will get quite decent.

[JeffK]

Maybe you should just try running SMF, only with more elaborate avatars

[TiagoTiago]

Can you, for example, build a house where the rooms are the faces of a tesseract, which allows you to walk from room to room going 'round and 'round the warped space, with just SMF + fancy avatars?

[Hawker]

Also, awesome to know that the only thing keeping you descent in life is the threat of police authority.

The fact that many people express the sentiment that the only thing keeping them from stealing, raping, and pillaging is the threat of police force (or for many Christians who claim God is the source of all morality that only the threat of hell) is indeed a troubling idea

Indeed.  Its true though - when a area loses police protection, the looters and rapists emerge very fast.  Look at Baghdad in 2003, London in 2011 and endless examples in between.  Just because its "troubling" that people do bad things doesn't mean you can pretend we are all angels.

[Minsc]

The fact that many people express the sentiment that the only thing keeping them from stealing, raping, and pillaging is the threat of police force (or for many Christians who claim God is the source of all morality that only the threat of hell) is indeed a troubling idea

Basically, it's the same thing keeping people from pissing and crapping all over where they live and eat so their home is full of waste.

The curious thing is mice and some other little critters do that.  Mice find food and then eat a little bit and then crap huge volumes, more than they even ate.  Anyone who has had them invade your home knows this.

So it's basically this.

[Minsc]

I'm considering setting up a modified SecondLife server,  where the currency is bitcoin, the rules/laws are set up by the people, and administrator duties are only to keep it running, allowing the inhabitants to create their own contracts and settle their own disputes. Thoughts/ideas?

It'll get caught up in the whole day trading of bitcoin and you need something super popular to stabilize the price.  If Diablo 3 had decided to use only bitcoin instead of only PayPal, then that would've done it.

Hmmm... considering your avatar is a furry, perhaps you should play on that.  The ideal furry place is where they can roleplay, yiff, and then do really disturbing & bizarre yiff stuff, and then they can leave the world and claim they merely like the art and only 1% of furries are into yiff and they're just a dignified furry not into that.

[FreeMoney]

I'm considering setting up a modified SecondLife server,  where the currency is bitcoin, the rules/laws are set up by the people, and administrator duties are only to keep it running, allowing the inhabitants to create their own contracts and settle their own disputes. Thoughts/ideas?

It'll get caught up in the whole day trading of bitcoin and you need something super popular to stabilize the price.  If Diablo 3 had decided to use only bitcoin instead of only PayPal, then that would've done it.

Hmmm... considering your avatar is a furry, perhaps you should play on that.  The ideal furry place is where they can roleplay, yiff, and then do really disturbing & bizarre yiff stuff, and then they can leave the world and claim they merely like the art and only 1% of furries are into yiff and they're just a dignified furry not into that.

That would not -stabilize- the price. First it would move it way up as people discovered the development. Then up more as people speculated on how many other large games/companies would accept coins. Then down if time passed and more did not or up if even more if others were getting in.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for stability.

[BitterTea]

Indeed.  Its true though - when a area loses police protection, the looters and rapists emerge very fast.  Look at Baghdad in 2003, London in 2011 and endless examples in between.  Just because its "troubling" that people do bad things doesn't mean you can pretend we are all angels.

You only see what you want to see. If people want order, it means there is a demand for services which keep it, which means there is money to be made supplying it. What about examples like Egypt where the community formed groups to police itself, when the police no longer would?

People are just so used to relying on the state for such things that it takes longer than a short period of chaos for people to self organize. Remember, anarchy is not chaos, anarchy is self order.

[Hawker]

Indeed.  Its true though - when a area loses police protection, the looters and rapists emerge very fast.  Look at Baghdad in 2003, London in 2011 and endless examples in between.  Just because its "troubling" that people do bad things doesn't mean you can pretend we are all angels.

You only see what you want to see. If people want order, it means there is a demand for services which keep it, which means there is money to be made supplying it. What about examples like Egypt where the community formed groups to police itself, when the police no longer would?

People are just so used to relying on the state for such things that it takes longer than a short period of chaos for people to self organize. Remember, anarchy is not chaos, anarchy is self order.

Egypt is in the midst of a crime wave.  I think you need examples from the real world.