When do goldbugs give up?

[cellard]

I dumped all my bitcoin into gold when it was near $19k so who fucked up?

Good one. But this is a long term game. Let's see Bitcoin returns vs Gold returns in a couple of years.

Gold always was and always will be the ultimate store of wealth, you just have to ignore short term price noise.  I still stick to my prediciton that in the next few years central banks will release their own state issued crypto and bitcoin will be banned in most developed countries as it will be seen as direct competition by those in power.

And how that wouldn't legitimize Bitcoin as a store of value? If it's a treat for governments, it's a good store of value. I mean if the government cannot put their hand on your pocket with their endless resources, that they have to go to the lengths of "banning it" (whatever that means), then who will?

By them doing that it will just prove they are impotent. They can't compete, so they attack it (and fail doing so, once again).

Also there's no way "governments" form a global coalition, since when have they? there will be some governments that ban it, then there will be other governments which are pro-Bitcoin, and these countries will be happily accepting Bitcointers to retire there and pay decent tax when they buy their luxury villas and cars and so on.

So when a government bans Bitcoin, they have to think bout all the tax and high purchasing power individuals that they are going to lose long term.

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[KonstantinosM]

7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

[gentlemand]

7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What reason is there to mine it from asteroids? Presumably there's more than enough already for actual industrial use. The only reason to mine it in, um, outer space would be to sell it to speculators at which point it's no longer economic to mine it.

The more interesting one is gold in seawater. At the moment the cost of extracting is five times more than the value but that's got to be cheaper than going all Buck Rogers.

[markj113]

7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What will more likely come first, enough computing power available to a powerful organisation or government to render bitcoins encryption useless or asteroid mining space ships with access to a powerful and cheap enough energy source to make it cost effective.

[realr0ach]

Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

They should rename this thread to Indiana r0ach and the temple of noobs.  There's 1/3rd the amount of above ground, investment grade silver today than in 1980 back when silver hit all time highs.  ONE THIRD.  If that's not "deflationary", I don't know what is.  However, there's twice as much gold now as back then.  Then you have other circumstances like silver being the most artificially suppressed asset on the planet, as evidenced by open interest in the COT reports, with gold being nowhere near artificially suppressed (platinum is #2 with gold being way down the line).

It's not even required for someone to pump silver.  All it takes is for the current price rigging scheme to fail and the price goes to outter space.  Rothschild said just the other day the current post-war Bretton woods is now failing....which is just a synonym for the metals price rigging scheme to support the dollar.  So yea, metals are a complete asymmetric trade right now while shitcoins are not.  Even within the govt's rigged system, there was an over 90% correlation between metals and US debt, and they just recently artificially broke even that correlation to try and support NIRP/ZIRP. 

Gold should be around $2500 an ounce even within their rigged and suppressed system.  Silver would shoot up to around $75 when that correlation eventually corrects.  All they're really doing right now is attempting to rig the system right up until the very day a new Bretton Woods occurs, so probably don't expect metals to make their move until you see some economic catastrophe in the headlines forcing them into a new Bretton Woods deal.  When that deal occurs, gold will not be $2500 and silver will not be $75.  It will be more like ten thousand dollar gold and several hundreds of dollars an ounce silver and everyone who is not holding those two assets at the time gets a massive haircut.

[figmentofmyass]

well said. the point here is about value storage. gold may not rise nearly as much as bitcoin over time (though the 2001-2011 run was pretty magnificent). but there are other considerations. gold has a history of thousands of years; bitcoin, less than 10. that's a huge difference in risk profile.

that's why it makes sense for wealthy people to dump only a small amount into bitcoin. they need to hedge wisely, not strike it rich.

That's goldbug propaganda as far as I'm concerned.  I read that same statement over and over on coinflation's articles, and it doesn't really mean anything.  It doesn't make a lick of difference when gold has been in a bear market for years now.

lol, bear market for years? that same exact logic applied to bitcoin in late 2015/early 2016. gold literally just ended its biggest bubble in history in 2011 (10 years of hyper bull), what would you expect? immediate explosion into another bubble!?

and how is it propaganda? it's just history. gold is regarded by society as a valuable commodity---that's a simple fact with historical backing. the point was about the difference in risk profile: bitcoin's incentives, consensus methods and robustness are simply not time-tested, certainly not when compared to longstanding everyday commodities with sizeable demand over hundreds or thousands of years.

i'm not a goldbug, btw. i very much prefer bitcoin. just talking about risk...... bitcoin is a brand new kind of asset, untested in many ways. it can't just spring up overnight and immediately be considered a traditional investment/hedging asset. it should be considered very high risk/high reward.

[exstasie]

BTC is just electronic digits that are infinitely divisible so there will never be a shortage, it just depends what value you put on a satoshi.  Supply is also only limited by a few lines of code that could be changed if the miners + big players decided to do so.

I'm not so sure about that. The miners + big players tried to change a few lines of code to increase maxblocksize, but they failed. You think they could succeed in changing a much holier parameter, the 21 million coin supply?

I think such controversial hard forks will only become harder to implement as time goes on.

[markj113]

Never underestimate greed and like fiat bitcoin has a new set of elite in control.

[Febo]

Goldbugs get a hefty amount of derision too despite their pet rock having value being thousands of years old as a concept.

I don't think they'll ever give up but they may well die off in unprecedented numbers. Never in my entire life have I heard anyone below the age of 70 express the slightest interest in metals.

Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised. But I guess we have this stereotype.   Another thing is that Bitcoin will push millennial's, and however is called that generation after them toward, the Gold, because Bitcoin will open their eyes about fiat.

[KonstantinosM]

7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What will more likely come first, enough computing power available to a powerful organisation or government to render bitcoins encryption useless or asteroid mining space ships with access to a powerful and cheap enough energy source to make it cost effective.

My guess is as good as yours. I think asteroid mining is easier. If we all wanted to prevent mining centralization, and things really did get bad we can always buy the latest mining gear and crank it to 11. If the government really was interesting in destroying bitcoin they could do it, but then we'd just hardfork to an algorithm that ensures we can outpace the government.

Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable. The gold will probably just be a by-product of more useful resources that are out there. But as long as you can double the supply of gold and get rich in the process why not?

My point was that bitcoin's supply is fixed, while gold can be mined to oblivion.

[realr0ach]

Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised.

I 'm not.  The non-fake number for how much Trump won the election by over Clinton is something like 10%+ instead of being close like they claimed.  That's why they were unable to rig the election because it was too much of a landslide.  The majority of people I've seen that voted for Trump seem to prefer metals over shitcoins.  There's a few millenial bugmen and such that prefer bitcoin, but most of them don't have any money anyway.

There's absolutely no reason for the common man to support shitcoins over physical metals.  All cryptocurrencies have transaction validators that are designed to centralize through interest, economy of scale, asymmetric bellcurve's effect on ASIC design, chip foundry startup costs, asymmetric global energy costs, etc.  There's literally thousands of reasons for why shitcoins are designed to centralize.  It's a complete joke.  

Since the tokens are non-fungible and transaction validators designed to centralize, it's probably the best new world order tracking and control grid enslavement tool ever created.  The media is entirely controlled by six companies who actively work to screw you 24 hours a day, and bitcoin is/will be virtually the same thing.  If you do something they don't like, they just blacklist your coins and you no longer exist, just like they ban people on Twitter and Youtube.

Shitcoins do NOT remove middlemen or counterparty risk.  It's all lying scumbags saying that.  Not only do they not remove them, they have them BUILT-IN to the god damned system.  The only thing that removes middlemen and counterparty risk is a physical commodity currency that exists in the real world whether it's silver, gold, oil, or what have you.  It just so happens metals are the only one usable as money in practicality.

[realr0ach]

Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable.

God, I keep seeing this buffoonish comment from shitcoiners over and over.  It doesn't matter if it's technically possible, all that matters is cost of production per ounce.  Nobody is going to mine gold in space for a million dollars or more an ounce.  They would mine on the ocean floor or somewhere first.  You might as well make the statement "someday it's inevitable humans will build a Dyson Sphere around the sun".

[Traxo]

My point was that bitcoin's supply is fixed, while gold can be mined to oblivion.

Right about now is when according to Shelby, the atavistic retrophiliac markj113 and troglodyte realr0ach start to get that sinking feeling in their stomach that they’ll never recover from selling BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20.

Shelby cited an explanation that Bitcoin’s fixed maximum supply is enforced by a clever game theory which prevents mutability of Satoshi’s v0.53 protocol. Gold lacks such a game theory, which is the reason John Nash provided in his Ideal Money manifesto for gold not being a suitable Ideal Money.

The details are near the end of the following linked post:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-heavyd-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-to-usd15k-in-march-usd8-5k-by-june-then-usd30-k-by-q1-2019-20180819t141422240z

Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised.

I 'm not.  The non-fake number for how much Trump won the election by over Clinton is something like 10%+ instead of being close like they claimed.  That's why they were unable to rig the election because it was too much of a landslide.  The majority of people I've seen that voted for Trump seem to prefer metals over shitcoins.

There's absolutely no reason for the common man to support shitcoins over physical metals.

If we filter by age less than 30, then less than 1 in 1000 of the Republicans you refer to would be willing to accept gold at spot value in any barter transaction. You simply fail to understand that money is based on groupwise PUBLIC CONFIDENCE. And PUBLIC CONFIDENCE is impossible for gold when the vast majority don’t believe gold is money anymore. Goldbugs are primarily constituted by mostly old geezers (like yourself) who delude themselves, because you’re entirely dependent on the well capitalized dealers and marker makers for liquidity and these can easily be regulated by the government. This is a grave error on your part @realr0ach.

As for the long-range timing of what you’re forsaking:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever

Remember the discussion with Shelby in 2016 and the Youtube videos that show most people don’t want gold even if you give it to them for free:

As cited in my OP, those who have experience economic and social collapse first-hand, have stated that only food, security, medicine, and sin goods are liquid during that scenario. Also any liquid currency that people know they can very readily exchange externally to the collapsed region. Precious metals (especially silver dimes!) don't qualify. Tinfoil hat wearing goldbug idiots are thinking that people will accept their coins in barter. Never going to happen dude. Get a fucking clue about reality.

You also are closed-minded because you are wearing a tinfoil hat (as I used to do) and thus you are blindly married to the concept in which you are vested.

You do realize I am @anonymint, also Legendary (plus a few Hero accounts as well) don't you?

Edit: Selling a 10 oz Silver Bar for $10 (When It's Worth $160) - EXPERIMENT -

Selling 1 Oz Gold Coin for $25 (when it's worth over $1,500)

Buying a 99¢ Taco with 1 Ounce Gold Coin (worth over $1000) - from Taco Bell's Drive-Through

Free $5 Bill or Free Silver Dollar? It's Up To You  <--- make sure you listen at 1:30 to the guy who knows the spot price but still won't take the silver dollar!

All cryptocurrencies have transaction validators that are designed to centralize through interest, economy of scale, asymmetric bellcurve's effect on ASIC design, chip foundry startup costs, asymmetric global energy costs, etc.  There's literally thousands of reasons for why shitcoins are designed to centralize.  It's a complete joke.  

Since the tokens are non-fungible and transaction validators designed to centralize, it's probably the best new world order tracking and control grid enslavement tool ever created.  The media is entirely controlled by six companies who actively work to screw you 24 hours a day, and bitcoin is/will be virtually the same thing.  If you do something they don't like, they just blacklist your coins and you no longer exist, just like they ban people on Twitter and Youtube.

Shitcoins do NOT remove middlemen or counterparty risk.  It's all lying scumbags saying that.  Not only do they not remove them, they have them BUILT-IN to the god damned system.  The only thing that removes middlemen and counterparty risk is a physical commodity currency that exists in the real world whether it's silver, gold, oil, or what have you.  It just so happens metals are the only one usable as money in practicality.

It was already explained to you (at the bottom of Steemit post I linked above) the historical evidence that gold has always been a fiat (because money is only groupwise PUBLIC CONFIDENCE) and has not always been money since antiquity.

Gold and Bitcoin are both fiats, but the major distinction is that Satoshi’s v0.53 protocol real Bitcoin has a game theory which makes it immutable and thus it’s impossible to increase its protocol dictated maximum supply of BTC21 million. Click the Steemit post linked above for the detailed exposition. Also Bitcoin can’t be regulated by government due to its jurisdictional arbitrage. Thus Bitcoin subsumes the nation-states as a NWO 666 international reserve asset. Gold can and is highly regulated by the nation-states and that is why it is basically useless for the only possible function it could have now— to hedge against failure of governments. The utility of gold is dying and will be completely dead as your generation of geezers dies over the next couple of decades.

Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable.

It doesn't matter if it's technically possible, all that matters is cost of production per ounce.

Irrelevant. The supply of gold and silver can still be increased by mining some where. If eventually rare earth metals are exhausted on Earth, then maybe humans will need to mine asteroids, but that’s not here nor there relevant. Governments can wreck havoc on countries by intervention in the supply, price, and PUBLIC CONFIDENCE of the metals. Which is the why John Nash explained in his Ideal Money manifesto that gold is not a form of ideal money. That is why Nash basically proposed what Bitcoin is. That is why some people suspect John Nash may have been involved in the creation of Bitcoin. Both Nash and Gavin Andresen were at Princeton. Shelby documented in his discussions with traincarswreck that Nash disappeared from public for a couple of years during which Bitcoin R&D would have been at its peak. He reappeared at conferences on Ideal Money after Satoshi made his last post on this forum.

Note the increase in the gold-to-silver price ratio (decrease in silver-to-gold price ratio) actually started decades before the 1920s boom ended in 1929. The increase coincided with the massive increase in silver supplies due to "Western Silver Discoveries", and probably also exacerbated by the official takeover of fiat in 1913. Notice the downward spike in the ratio from 1932-35, which I explained in my prior article "Fiat Price Of Silver Is Deceptive", was due to US government manipulation of the silver price in order to cause a depression in China and force them off a silver legal tender money standard. Thus monetary demand for silver was removed/reduced in the most populated nation on earth.

Note the second drastic rise in the ratio started around 1964, when silver was removed as money from USA coin, flooding the investment market with 2 billion oz of silver. Notice it only took one billionaire investor (Hunt brothers) in silver to spike the ratio back down to roughly 15 in 1980, even with the 2 billion oz supply overhang.

[markj113]

Well that was a lot of typing just to demonstrate you know fuck all.

I suggest you quit typing and go get a room with Shelby as your obviously super gay for him, your post history reads like a verbal shelby blow job.

[Evan_Doyle]

I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.

I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?

[markj113]

I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?

Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.  

You also have the HODLers that also like to think you buy a bitcoin, sit on it for a few months and wake up one morning a millionaire also buying bitcoin qualifies you as an investment and financial guru instantly giving you qualifications to advise all newbies to sell the house, car, boat and family and go all in no matter what the price.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

and how is it propaganda? it's just history. gold is regarded by society as a valuable commodity---that's a simple fact with historical backing.

Yes, but it's being used as an argument to own gold regardless of what the price is--and this is a stupid position to take for any investment.  The people who spout such things are either trying to sell their gold or people who've been brainwashed into believing that losing money is OK as long as they own gold.

lol, bear market for years? that same exact logic applied to bitcoin in late 2015/early 2016.

No, bitcoin hit an ATH in 2014 and another just several years later.  Meanwhile gold is languishing and has been for 7 years, with no signs of rebounding.  And hey, it might turn out that bitcoin never gets adopted by the masses and that this big bull market we're seeing was just a bubble.  I wouldn't rule out that possibility at all.

What goldbugs are basically always saying is, "you can never go wrong with gold".  I think that's totally false.  The average person does not need gold as an investment or as a hedge against inflation.  How well has gold hedged against inflation since 2011?  Can the average middle-class person afford to lock up a lot of money in an asset that provides no income; might cost money to keep secure; might get stolen; and might decrease significantly in value?  I don't think so.

I stand by what I said.  The goldbugs will NEVER tell you it's time to sell gold.  Ever.

Is gold expensive right now considering how much aditional fiat has been pumped into the system through QE.
<snip>
Stocks are artifically inflated, property artificially inflated through stupid low interest rates.

Why hasn't gold's price gone up?  QE should be inflating everything, no?  More money in the system + low interest rates should have people buying record amounts of gold, right?  Why isn't that happening?

I agree about the stock market.  I don't know when this bull market is going to end, but it'll at least be interesting to see what happens to the precious metals market once interest rates start rising.

[markj113]

Is gold expensive right now considering how much aditional fiat has been pumped into the system through QE.

Stocks are artifically inflated, property artificially inflated through stupid low interest rates.

Huge amount of global uncertainty in Turkey, Venezuela, France, Italy.  Trade wars underway, global debt at an all time high, the US in over $21 trillion debt (interest payments alone will reach $1 trillion)

Gold thrives on fear and there are a lot of things that go tits up at any time.

Why hasn't gold's price gone up?  QE should be inflating everything, no?  More money in the system + low interest rates should have people buying record amounts of gold, right?  Why isn't that happening?

I agree about the stock market.  I don't know when this bull market is going to end, but it'll at least be interesting to see what happens to the precious metals market once interest rates start rising.

The QE money has not been used as intended, it has not circulated in the economy.  Banks have horded it and used it to pump the stock market, companies are buying back their own stock using cheap money artificially inflating the price.

Regarding gold price - monkey hamered at critical moments using fake paper contracts and a strong dollar is holding it back.

It will all go tits up sooner rather than later and gold price will go substantially higher but no one has a crystal ball to call when that will happen.

I stand by what I said.  The goldbugs will NEVER tell you it's time to sell gold.  Ever.

How many BTC bugs tell people to dump.  HODL and accumulate no matter what is the normal response.

The average person does not need gold as an investment or as a hedge against inflation.  How well has gold hedged against inflation since 2011?  Can the average middle-class person afford to lock up a lot of money in an asset that provides no income; might cost money to keep secure; might get stolen; and might decrease significantly in value?  I don't think so.

The same can be said for bitcoin although it poses significantly more volatility and risk over gold.  How many middle class people could tolerate a $19k to $6k dump on their savings?  It does not provide income, far more lose bitcoin to hacking, scams and lost private keys over physical metals theft (check the scam accusation thread on this forum and find me an equivalent on any precious metals forum).  Physical metals open you up to local thieves, bitcoin opens you up to a whole world of hackers.


If gold is a useless old relic then why are so many countries fighting to repatriate their gold from foreign countries?
Why is Russia accumulating so much gold and silver.
Why is China accumulating so much gold and silver.
Why are central banks increasing their gold reserves.

Why are none of the above buying existing crypto but investing in blockchain tech research (spoiler - to release their own state issue crypto in the near future)

[Traxo]

I pass the along from Shelby…

The tinfoils hats are going to be touting this:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-21/russia-buys-over-800000-ounces-gold-july-it-dumps-us-treasuries

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/russias-goal-to-resurrect-its-empire-by-2020-rain-of-the-parade-of-a-united-europe/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/putins-popularity-soars-as-he-addressed-the-nation-on-tv/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/the-rising-star-of-russia-central-asia/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/russia-imports-more-than-it-sells-oops-more-craziness/

“The Age of Empire is gone. Technology has rendered those ideas antiquated at best. But before these older generations die out, the memory of enemies and empires still haunt the hallow halls in their minds.”

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/until-we-understand-the-real-wealth-of-a-nation-progress-cannot-be-achieved/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/wealth-of-a-nation/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/basic-concepts/what-is-the-strength-of-the-dollar-its-people-military-or-commodities/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/do-the-reserves-of-a-nation-matter-anymore/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/economics/modern-love-internet-changing-patterns-in-marriage-divorce/

[markj113]

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

I presume you also apply that to China?

So land is worthless, gold is worthless.   How many wars have been fought and lives lost over land and resources?

Obviously using big words is not an indication of intelligence.

STT, Shelby wanted me to ask you to do some reading because he strongly disagrees with you about gold:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4920367.msg44422077#msg44422077

Why the fuck do you keep quoting Shelby in all your posts.  Your obviously an alt of Anonymint that they banned, considering red flagging you.