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Question: When do goldbugs give up?
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Evan_Doyle
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August 21, 2018, 08:44:18 PM
 #41

I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?

Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.  

You also have the HODLers that also like to think you buy a bitcoin, sit on it for a few months and wake up one morning a millionaire also buying bitcoin qualifies you as an investment and financial guru instantly giving you qualifications to advise all newbies to sell the house, car, boat and family and go all in no matter what the price.

Yeah sure, and I'm not going to defend that way of thinking either because we both know it's completely unrealistic. But you completely avoided my position by pointing the blame on the other side. If you had a farm full of goats, would you really think to trade them for some pieces of gold?

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp


This here is a very good point. Russia is actually quite sustainable because of their land and gold. USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt. What if they don't want to? Or if they can't? Innovations like crypto can't save them from a crisis, but they can be a way out after hitting the bottom.
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August 21, 2018, 08:46:18 PM
Last edit: August 21, 2018, 08:57:31 PM by STT
 #42

Russia holds a far higher percentage in gold then most western governments.   China is accumulating but still quite a low percentage.  There is some historical precedent where gold is respected in even communist economies, apparently the USSR held a very high percentage in the 1950's but I read that a while back so dont have a source to post now.

The price on gold might appear to be nothing dramatic but I thought it was bullish ever since 2009 when it rose from its already high peak to greater heights.   I realise its been pulling back a while now but I dont see that gold holdings are especially designed or intended to creative speculative profits.   I go with the idea the price for gold never really changes, its just reflecting loss of value in the currencies used to purchase it and its a ten year asset type useful for a pension hold of value not trading to profits.

Anyone who wants to invest in gold has to take part in mining operations or maybe its use as jewellery.  I think Buffet states the cheapest gold is mining on the high street, via his pawn shop operations.  Otherwise just holding plain gold should appear to be totally boring, its just some metal and does not perform any task while unused.  Also it requires no maintenance, BTC also I never think of as an investment by itself and it must be used but BTC is far more volatile and changing.  
 Growth based could be an argument so long as its being developed then that reflects in the base unit valued more highly but only indirectly by that greater usage.  On the negative side if BTC does not progress then it falls back far more harshly, its far sharper in its peaks and troughs where gold is generally flat.   Both react to US dollar strength or weakness as do many commodities but especially as they can be used as alternatives.

BTC has a greater monetary velocity but that doesnt make it superior to gold except perhaps for the sub gram transactions where a digital format has potential to be the most efficient method of instantly transferring value at the lowest spread.  At present BTC is not as efficient as it needs to be to do well long term and overcoming this flaw could be key to regaining or just holding previous gains.


Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.  If the market itself does not reflect a reasonable popular price then still central banks continue to exchange gold as a reserve asset in settling debts between countries of especially large amounts.  If that trend is rising that banks increase their holdings and its been true for a decade then in time the price for gold is not especially due to contract.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.   It must be ready for that purpose to be useful and then value can be built upon that usage and higher speculative activity is justified.  But the base case for BTC imo in enabling business that might otherwise not occur, this is no insult to refer to the smallest amounts as the greatest growth rates come from the smallest entities and as we all know most of the world is not rich.
  If crypto can enable the poorest to greater confidence and efficiency in value transfer it would be such a positive event for all involved, thats a market with many billion people.  Where as the simple base case for gold I mentioned is just between merely dozens who barter in many billions of worth, a much more restricted and staid market.



How does someone with almost nothing in our eyes get paid reliably for 2 dollar or less.  Can BTC be helpful in raising monetary velocity between those people and enabling greater trade, employment, utility and growth from the smallest 'wealth'  Growth of that type can double, it could be dramatic if possible to engage because the numbers who can use such a tool in their life is likely billions

Quote
USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt

USA just needs to reorganise and respect growth in its productive economy.   In that change, some debt will not be paid because its not productive.  USA by itself can self support from assets but it would no longer benefit from being the world reserve currency at that point.   So money would cost more, its at this point the goldbug will say this means likely money is gold. 
  That money could then still be used internationally despite the failure of the previous political economy where as the debt could not, the dollar is tied to debt.   That imbalance is where gold price or marketcap as per thread title is not falling long term

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Evan_Doyle
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August 22, 2018, 07:39:23 PM
 #43


Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.  If the market itself does not reflect a reasonable popular price then still central banks continue to exchange gold as a reserve asset in settling debts between countries of especially large amounts.  If that trend is rising that banks increase their holdings and its been true for a decade then in time the price for gold is not especially due to contract.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.   It must be ready for that purpose to be useful and then value can be built upon that usage and higher speculative activity is justified.  But the base case for BTC imo in enabling business that might otherwise not occur, this is no insult to refer to the smallest amounts as the greatest growth rates come from the smallest entities and as we all know most of the world is not rich.
  If crypto can enable the poorest to greater confidence and efficiency in value transfer it would be such a positive event for all involved, thats a market with many billion people.  Where as the simple base case for gold I mentioned is just between merely dozens who barter in many billions of worth, a much more restricted and staid market.

Great ideas. Bitcoin certainly serves as a more useful form of moving money from one point to the other. It has been used more so by those who don't want to attract attention by moving that money, which is what determines its value. That and its ability to subvert the middleman.

Gold is only able to do this in the smallest amounts. It can more readily serve as a sign of wealth, and it gives
people comfort to have a physical sign of that wealth.

Both serve as good hedges against incompetent governments and political risks, but neither yield interest so are avoided by institutional investors.

Because of Bitcoin's accessibility, it is clearly the more useful one in the long term.
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August 22, 2018, 09:22:23 PM
 #44

Peter Schiff's entire business is based on him convincing others about gold as a good long term investment, so I really doubt that he's going to give up any time soon. However, we're seeing some other gold bugs like Mike Maloney switch to a more pro-bitcoin stance.

Admitting that bitcoin was a superior investment is one thing, but they're probably just going to continue to tell others to hoard silver and gold into the future, regardless of past performances.

I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run, but it's doesn't have anything close to bitcoin in terms of its long term potential. Besides, bitcoin basically fulfills all the roles that gold and silver used to play in the past.

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August 22, 2018, 11:04:09 PM
 #45

I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run, but it's doesn't have anything close to bitcoin in terms of its long term potential. Besides, bitcoin basically fulfills all the roles that gold and silver used to play in the past.

I don't really view them as competitors. Managing investments, to me, is more about minimizing risk than maximizing gains. Hedging is all about preparing for the unpredictable, and most importantly not keeping all your eggs in one basket. While the outlook for Bitcoin is quite promising, it's still one of the more risky assets one can buy.

Though my biggest investment exposure is Bitcoin, I've been buying into swing lows on gold and silver (physical) for years for that reason. If I could have found a tenable custody solution for crude oil in 2016, I'd have been buying crude as well. Instead, I just swing trade the Proshares ETF. Wink

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August 22, 2018, 11:43:42 PM
 #46

Most of the goldbugs are old, and have an old-fashion mindset, they hate tech stuff. And bitcoin would be "complicated" to them, not to mention that it is a "Ponzi scheme" or a "scam" in their eyes. Only a true goldbug would be able to convince other goldbugs that bitcoin is not like what they think it is, but its something else.

$1 trillion dollar market cap for Bitcoin is such an important and powerful statement, that it will definitely result in not only capital parked in Gold to shift towards Bitcoin, but pretty much all legacy assets will start bleeding to a certain degree.

After that $1 trillion dollar milestone the "slow" capital (the braver institutions, governments, hedge funds, royal families, etc) will start to massively inflate Bitcoin's price towards even greater hights. It would be a tremendous achievement when governments will finally start stocking up Bitcoin instead of just Gold.

It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.
That bull run, realistically might not happen. That would have to be a pretty darn big bull run. The current marketcap is like a 100 Billion $, we need 900 Billion more, and the world economy is not in a good shape. Why are people ignoring the fact that there is recession all over the world, and there's not enough money to feed people, even though there are trillions of dollars. For the 900 Billion dollars to get in bitcoin, it won't be easy, people have to believe in it, and there's no reason for them to believe in it, satoshi is no longer active in the community, his identity is unknown, markets are volatile ,and bitcoin is decentralized. People will never get the point of decentralization. Its so fucking not easy for bitcoin to hit a trillion dollar market cap. There's more to this than what it seems,and people need to understand that.


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August 23, 2018, 05:59:16 AM
 #47

Most of the goldbugs are old, and have an old-fashion mindset, they hate tech stuff. And bitcoin would be "complicated" to them, not to mention that it is a "Ponzi scheme" or a "scam" in their eyes. Only a true goldbug would be able to convince other goldbugs that bitcoin is not like what they think it is, but its something else.

Its possible to be both.  Gold is only something used as a counter balance, so goldbug to me would mean someone who holds far too much.  I'd say about 1% is fine for most people as often the actual wealth people have to lay away for ten years is tiny.   Thats the time scale for gold really, it'd be more relevant stated as a kind of cash hold in a pension.

The QE programs are tied to pension funds owned by government.   So anyone reliant on that could get a horrible shock one day, hence gold would qualify as a non parallel asset neither dollar nor bond.  Forget price, in risk terms its positive to a portfolio

I agree the bugs overlook the ideas that BTC enables and its a great shame.   Some compromise by both sides would be best, but thats the idea of a goldbug I guess

Quote
Peter Schiff's entire business is based on him convincing others about gold as a good long term investment
I dont think he'd agree with that wording.  Gold gives no yield, in purely negative terms its avoiding investment risk by non involvement.  Also theres no returns on the capital, if anything storage has a % cost to it.    Even the actual price appreciation is inverse to dollar failings which are substantial and without end.
Investment would only qualify when taking part in mining operations and that is often quite risky.   A good mine will operate many hedges to its costs even then they are often encountering many problems with financing as operations take a decade to establish usually.
The story for schiff is more complicated then just gold, he is mostly an investment manager so he is competing for pensions funds and the like.  Plain gold is a low margin business as its quite simple, not profitable to hawk

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Traxo
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August 23, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 05:12:59 PM by Traxo
 #48

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp


This here is a very good point. Russia is actually quite sustainable because of their land and gold. USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt. What if they don't want to? Or if they can't? Innovations like crypto can't save them from a crisis, but they can be a way out after hitting the bottom.

A strawman is a not refutation. It is running away from the point.

The point was made that Russia is investing in antiquated things instead of having a free market economy that maximizes competition and opportunities for its people.
Because in the knowledge age the wealth of a nation is the capability of its people in the free market of knowledge production.
The era of empire building is over. Apparently you did not even read the links that were provided.

The USA is decadent also, but that's no argument. Compare Russia to Asia which instead has a dynamic, diverse, decentralized free market economy.


Why the fuck do you keep quoting Shelby in all your posts.  Your obviously an alt of Anonymint that they banned, considering red flagging you.

Why do you think you have a right to tell me what I can post?

And the matter of whether I am an alt was settled as "provably not". Here is the link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1887077.msg42165851#msg42165851

So land is worthless, gold is worthless.   How many wars have been fought and lives lost over land and resources?

Did the Internet arrive 100 years ago?

Before gold was money there were other forms of money such as tally sticks, iron plates, copper plates, animal skins, sea shells, etc.
Gold was a technological innovation in fungibility. But every technology eventually becomes antiquated.




Russia holds a far higher percentage in gold then most western governments.   China is accumulating but still quite a low percentage.

Again Russia is an example of myopic decadence. Asia is the future and you can see they're starting to move away from the commodities and resources export driven model towards an integrated (Asian Union) Knowledge Age services economy.
Again readers should read the following linked blog and all the comments below it:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

Also this:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-epitt925-re-anonymint-re-epitt925-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180820t011835219z

There is some historical precedent where gold is respected in even communist economies, apparently the USSR held a very high percentage in the 1950's but I read that a while back so dont have a source to post now.

China is far more capitalist than the USA and Europe now. The West is turning towards totalitarianism via extremism that results in the end-game collapse of socialism and progressivism.

And Asia is moving forward into the Knowledge Age. Precious metals are dying as a store-of-value.

Also nation-states and central banks are dying never to return to prominence as a NWO with John Nash's Ideal Money (i.e. Bitcoin) as the new paradigm. It's Just Time. The Internet arrived. Everything changed.

You need to understand the nation-states only ever existed to foster increased cooperation between humans, but this was when the primarily mode of cooperation was via large fixed capital investment in the Agricultural and Industrial Ages (which are now dying as we move into the Knowledge Age). Shelby has written about this extensively:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180519t120410615z

https://steemit.com/philosophy/@anonymint/geographical-cultural-ethos-science-is-dead-part-2
https://steemit.com/science/@anonymint/the-golden-knowledge-age-is-rising
https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/get-ready-for-a-world-currency
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0 (Rise of Knowledge, Demise of (fungible) Finance)

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless
https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/re-anonymint-don-t-falsely-accuse-me-of-being-a-misogynist-20180822t133443875z
https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon
https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/why-social-media-software-sucks
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/why-crypto-tokens-are-important
https://steemit.com/psychology/@anonymint/is-all-virtual-activity-mind-control


The price on gold might appear to be nothing dramatic but I thought it was bullish ever since 2009 when it rose from its already high peak to greater heights.   I realise its been pulling back a while now but I dont see that gold holdings are especially designed or intended to creative speculative profits.   I go with the idea the price for gold never really changes, its just reflecting loss of value in the currencies used to purchase it and its a ten year asset type useful for a pension hold of value not trading to profits.

Gold will decline below $1050 during the strong dollar-short vortex perhaps as low as $850. Then during the coming collapse of the West and realignment of global economy towards Asia, gold may rise as high as $3000 – $5000 whilst Bitcoin goes to $250,000+. Gold no higher than that, whilst Bitcoin will eventually rise to $million+ long-term. After that precious metals will go into a terminal decline and eventually be basically worthless other than industrial and jewelry demand. As the Bible says in Revelation about the coming NWO, you will throw your gold and silver into the streets for it will not help you in that time.

Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.

Refuted above.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.

You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-quillfiller-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180821t193431892z
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180521t051032993z
https://medium.com/@shelby_78386/ive-been-trying-to-explain-this-to-martin-armstrong-6bba1d871df3





I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run

Based on what logic?

The reality is precious metals are being phased out by the advances of humankind, analogous to how chunks of iron displaced animal skins as money, chunks of copper or bronze displaced iron as money, and gold displaced chunks of copper as money. The Internet and the computer revolution are ushering in the Knowledge Age.



While the outlook for Bitcoin is quite promising, it's still one of the more risky assets one can buy.

It's the least risky, because it's the only asset you can buy that will not end up making you 100 times poorer as we pass through the transition from nation-state central banking to the NWO Ideal Money over the next decade or two.

@realr0ach sold BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20. He is already 40 times poorer. Those who don't buy Bitcoin are going to end up destitute, no matter how much wealth they started with.





Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.

Yeah sure, and I'm not going to defend that way of thinking either because we both know it's completely unrealistic.

It's not only realistic, it's already well underway.



It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.

That bull run, realistically might not happen. That would have to be a pretty darn big bull run. The current marketcap is like a 100 Billion $, we need 900 Billion more, and the world economy is not in a good shape. Why are people ignoring the fact that there is recession all over the world, and there's not enough money to feed people, even though there are trillions of dollars.

All cryptocurrency already touched $1 trillion in 2017 and we will surpass it in 2019, but we will not establish a firm base above $1 trillion until after 2024:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever
https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-quillfiller-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180821t193431892z

The fallacy of your concern about the collapse of the West and the rise of Asia as the economic center of the world by 2033, is that:

  • You don't understand that Asia is rising.
  • The collapse of the West is part of the transition to the Knowledge Age and Bitcoin is not for the masses, but rather for the future $billionaires as an Ideal Money NWO decentralized reserve currency.
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August 23, 2018, 05:45:00 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 06:06:07 PM by markj113
 #49

Again Russia is an example of myopic decadence. Asia is the future and you can see they're starting to move away from the commodities and resources export driven model towards an integrated (Asian Union) Knowledge Age services economy.
Again readers should read the following linked blog and all the comments below it:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

You cant live in or farm a bitcoin.

gold, silver, copper, gas, coal, uranium, oil and other commodities are the backbone that powers the knowledge age without them our entire civilsation would collapse but you claim they are becoming worthless.


You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

So once they kick everyone off the blockchain where is all the hash power going to come from to secure the network?

If they are going to purchase the hash power then why use bitcoin at all, why not start a NWO-coin with no additional outlay buying up existing coins and secure it with their own new hash power?

You also dont seem to grasp everything you post is just an opinion, no one has a crystal ball and if you were so clever to predit the future with any degree of accuracy you would be a wealthy man out enjoying yourself rather than endlessly regurgitating "Shelby" on this forum.

Also do you think its appropriate always lposting links to people that have been banned from this forum?

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August 23, 2018, 06:03:11 PM
 #50

You cant live in or farm a bitcoin.

gold, silver, copper, gas, coal, uranium and other commodities are the backbone that powers the knowledge age without them our entire civilsation would collapse but you claim they are becoming worthless.

You have some detailed and exhaustive reading to do. You always ignore the links provided because you think you already know-it-all.

You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

So once they kick everyone off the blockchain where is all the hash power going to come from to secure the network?

If they are going to purchase the hash power then why use bitcoin at all, why not start a NWO-coin with no additional outlay buying up existing coins and secure it with their own new hash power?

The hash power is mostly free for the TPTB that surreptitiously control Bitcoin from behind the veil of anonymity of mining, charged to the collective (i.e. the people of the world) in the form of large government financed CAPEX projects to build hydroelectric dams for example.

Remember the surreptitious control aspect of Bitcoin is critically important. That is how they move to the NWO without any resistance. Nobody can prove that anybody is in control of Bitcoin.


Also do you think its appropriate always lposting links to people that have been banned from this forum?

Shelby banned for his behavior of cross-posting, doesn't mean I am banned from sharing any information I find to be interesting. The person was banned, not his ideas.
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August 23, 2018, 06:14:41 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 07:09:44 PM by markj113
 #51

You still havent explained why the NWO would bother buying up all existing bitcoin kicking everyone else off the blockchain when they have access to all this free hash power and could just launch NWO-coin with zero initial outlay for their own uses.

As the Bible says in Revelation about the coming NWO, you will throw your gold and silver into the streets for it will not help you in that time.

Ill pass on taking financial advice from the bible.

Those who don't buy Bitcoin are going to end up destitute, no matter how much wealth they started with.

That will be about 99.99% of the worlds population currently then.  With everyone destitute who is going to get up for work in the morning to keep the power on, the internet running (could be a problem for your crypto network), the hospitals and shops open?   Do you actually stop and read the bullshit you post?

You claim all this knowledge and yet I bet your broke living paycheck to paycheck with regurgitating Shelby your only sense of importance in life.

Post a signed message including my username from a bitcoin wallet holding over $100k and you have some credibility.
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August 23, 2018, 08:39:28 PM
 #52

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After that precious metals will go into a terminal decline and eventually be basically worthless other than industrial and jewelry demand.

Base use for gold might be as plain metal, rare because its only made in supernovas but all the same available in quantities suitable for electronics and jewellery even.    The reason its used for money over thousands of years is because it never degrades or changes, its perfectly divisible and ideal for trade and storing of wealth.  
I think its arrogant to believe we have altered a trend that has been in existence that long.  Maybe it'll be a great thing when it does happen, perhaps free energy will mean gold is a pointless weight from then on.   Bitcoin is a technology while great its not replacing the idea and worth of gold, it may be more convenient but its not a replacement for golds unique qualities as an element.  

I totally love technology have done for decades, great growth is possible and its amazing but in this case it has not made traditional stores of value redundant.   If gold didnt exist, I'd argue the case for other commodities to exist in their long term worth.  Less tradable perhaps as qualities vary but still we haven't altered gold as a metal placed within an economy so a great decline I find especially unlikely.

Quote
You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency.

My personal take on capitalism is that its a bottom up system, with growth primarily occurring with the smallest entities.   The current world system does favour the very largest organisations with a great bias and the world is worse off for it.  If Bitcoin is to do well it'll likely come via enabling the most remote unadvantaged participants in an economy.
Its no insult to say bitcoin is for the smallest trades, its really a great accomplishment if it can do this.    Thats the heart of what a bit is referring to imo and I hope BTC never loses focus to become just a hedge fund ticket.   Besides anything else we already have lots of speculative assets to bet on, BTC should be high utility and the worth really is by accident derived because people keep around those bits in their pocket even when their poor.  Theres a billion poor so get the market cap in essense for the most unlikely poorest traders

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August 23, 2018, 08:57:34 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2018, 09:07:56 PM by Traxo
 #53

You still havent explained why the NWO would bother buying up all existing bitcoin kicking everyone else off the blockchain when they have access to all this free hash power and could just launch NWO-coin with zero initial outlay for their own uses.

You seem to not understand that the masses will be kicked off because when BTC rises to $million+ then transaction fees in excess of $5000 (perhaps as high as $50,000) per transaction.
TPTB pay the fees to themselves since they are also eventually the miners. TPTB don’t need to buy Bitcoin from the masses, the masses will pay it to them as transaction fees.

Again I already told you they needed Bitcoin to develop organically from the bottom-up so that there would be no resistance to the NWO. Bitcoin has to become everyone's unit-of-account first before everyone is totally kicked off. The kicking off will occur in stages as the price and transaction fees rise organically.

And again, no one will be able to prove that there's anyone in control of Bitcoin. If they had done it only for themselves from the start, it would never be adopted by the world. There would be resistance.

Post a signed message including my username from a bitcoin wallet holding over $50k and you have some credibility.
This is private information that should remain private. You reveal your identity and prove how much money you have and see how it works out for you.

That will be about 99.99% of the worlds population currently then.

Not for long:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4942336.msg44570029#msg44570029

Also more than 2% of the Japanese population owns cryptocurrency as of end of 2017. Rising rapidly.



I think its arrogant to believe we have altered a trend that has been in existence that long.

It's important to distinguish butthurt ego from facts (the link explains that Iron was a precious metal and money 323 B.C.). So not only is the trend of gold just a small fraction of recorded civilization, but there is a chart of an inexorable trend of decline in value for physical things at that link.

There was never any arrogance involved. You are projecting your own ego there.


I totally love technology have done for decades, great growth is possible and its amazing but in this case it has not made traditional stores of value redundant.

No technology really has inexorably made physical things less and less valuable. And the Internet and the computer are accelerating that trend to the extent that gold is losing its function as money. Paper money was the first invention that relegated gold to second tier status, and now Bitcoin will replace the second tier as well. The fat lady is about to sing on gold.

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August 23, 2018, 09:17:06 PM
 #54

Quote
then transaction fees in excess of $5000 (perhaps as high as $50,000) per transaction.
TPTB pay the fees to themselves since they are also eventually the miners. TPTB don’t need to buy Bitcoin from the masses, the masses will pay it to them as transaction fees.

This represents inefficiency then, every free capitalist market is driven by efficiency in line with profitable arbitrage.    To have a build up of transaction fees represented failure I think.   I really see this as a problem for BTC overall, that it has a rising cost of processing is not ok.  
                However I think the protocol can be developed further and will harness technology to become more able for the same price.  Thats the path of every other industry and technology, over times cars have invariably become pretty amazing.  People may look down on some random junker car but the average has gifted even the cheapest cars with fuel injection and impressive reliability.  I'm old enough to remember when old cars rusted away in the rain and the engines became horribly unbalanced as the carburettor no longer throttled properly.  Fixable sure but not reliable or especially efficient, nowadays people buy new just to show off but its undeniable that the base technology improved, became cheaper more able.  

I do expect BTC to either improve or lose the game to another parallel innovation.  Of what kind I dont know but ultimately none of us chooses who wins or loses, its the giant market of billions of people who as a herd will determine who gets that great cost advantage of serving the masses.   Its obvious to us all that US dollar is horrible flawed and weakened by political bias, but I dont presume a successor.

By arrogant I just mean the human trait we are all guilty of.  BTC came a long way and its reasonable to presume it will just continue, I think it will require constant work to not fall by the wayside.  It will need more transaction capability, better quality of service and ideally be perfectly cheap for the very poorest people because theres billions of those people not served by USD treasury debt traded in 100k bundles currently.  Thats the market vacuum waiting for a worthy successor imo


If you would believe BTC replaces gold in this elite wealth idea, then what would be in the position of silver or copper for the masses in that scenario ?

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August 23, 2018, 10:59:48 PM
 #55

Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?
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August 23, 2018, 11:03:42 PM
 #56

Its possible to be both.  Gold is only something used as a counter balance, so goldbug to me would mean someone who holds far too much.  I'd say about 1% is fine for most people as often the actual wealth people have to lay away for ten years is tiny.   Thats the time scale for gold really, it'd be more relevant stated as a kind of cash hold in a pension.

The QE programs are tied to pension funds owned by government.   So anyone reliant on that could get a horrible shock one day, hence gold would qualify as a non parallel asset neither dollar nor bond.  Forget price, in risk terms its positive to a portfolio

I agree the bugs overlook the ideas that BTC enables and its a great shame.   Some compromise by both sides would be best, but thats the idea of a goldbug I guess
A goldbug actually means, if a person likes having gold. Gold is treated as an investment, so it doesn't mean that all goldbugs hold a shitload of gold. A true goldbug never really likes bitcoin. Or any crypto. Its against their traditions.

What do QE programs have to do with goldbugs?


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August 23, 2018, 11:24:32 PM
 #57

QE programs are related to dollar worth because the bonds ultimately will pay out value in Dollars.   Bonds while constantly renewed do not especially appear in the normal money supply, hence how they are tied to Pensions.    That excess supply of dollars is what will appear to make gold rise in price, the market valuing stability of supply in gold over the idea of QE

I'd agree a goldbug is excluding the value of other possibilities, usually especially bearish.  Technology being strongly growth related would not appear to match a good bearish case.    I dont think most gold holders are goldbugs, the largest buyers of gold now are central banks and I presume they are going to use that gold as a reserve asset maybe nationally to back paper government issuance.   Having a practical use for gold would not represent a bearish scenario, probably goes back to the gold smiths handing out credit notes hundreds of years ago.   The notes had a utility to them in their exchange, the gold became monetised and it enabled liquidity and growth by that value being exchanged easily same argument as BTC might have in many scenarios.


Quote
Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?
Gold can also be mined out of the ground by anyone with some skill.   I know thats an idealistic point of view, most gold is mined by large professional companies.   But its not true of all gold supply, there is a section of gold found which can be available to anyone in that area depending on luck to some extent.

This could also be stated as a negative as gold miners disrupt native peoples in the amazon rain forest for example.   Its considered quite destructive mining and with the use of mercury also dangerous

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August 24, 2018, 02:02:40 AM
Last edit: August 24, 2018, 02:46:41 AM by realr0ach
 #58

Don't bother responding to Anonymint about metals.  All he's doing is praying shitcoins win and metals don't go up because he owns shitcoins and no metals.  He's just a disinformation agent at this point.  Anyone with a clue about markets knows metals are currently in one of the largest inverse bubbles in world history and the upcoming metals bull run will be that of legend:

Since most of you guys are JayJuanGee-level economists, let me go ahead and tell you the fair market value of the DOW is 8500-9000.  So expect it to probably drop below that when it does crash before rebounding, assuming the PPT doesn't just implement full blown communism and prints their own number.  The insider info is that they will never allow that to happen and will engineer hyperinflation before allowing deflation to happen since the banks would cease to exist.  Right now it seems like they're just printing money and handing it ONLY to insolvent banks to keep them afloat while the real economy collapses (so communism).

As for metals, there's no way they're stopping the next metals bull run which is going to go to at least $2200 gold in current buying power and $75 silver in current buying power.  They will likely spike higher than that before dropping in a blowoff top to $2500+ gold and something like $100 silver.  It's not hard to see from looking at the chart this could be the biggest metals pump in world history in terms of where it currently sits and my numbers are probably low-balling it considering while all this is going on, it will probably trigger the reset/new Bretton Woods and they will just set gold to some absurd number like $5-10k and silver to hundreds of dollars an ounce:


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August 24, 2018, 03:39:41 AM
 #59

I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.


Gold is kind of useless. So it will be mined as a by-product of the useful stuff. After it is mined it can very easily be loaded onto a rocket and parachuted into the earth.

Compared to the tiny amount of gold that we can mine on earth, the amount of gold you could get from an asteroid is stupendous.

If you truly think that people won't just rocket boost that space gold back to earth for a quick buck from people who like shiny things you're wrong. Somebody will find that asteroid containing 100 Trillion worth of gold at today's prices, and when they drop that baby onto planet earth the price of gold will decrease 10-fold.

Don't underestimate the possibility of that.


And it's not like you need to go to space to mine gold. There certainly is plenty of gold left to mine right here on planet earth.

Also what happens if a company simply puts equipment in an asteroid and then sells the gold to investors? Couldn't the price of gold drop without the gold even being transported to earth?

I could continue at length about just this small facet of why gold is inferior to Bitcoin as a currency but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Bitcoin is truly limited and deflationary even. Gold is inflationary and it's value is questionable.
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August 24, 2018, 05:31:37 AM
Last edit: August 24, 2018, 05:42:54 AM by realr0ach
 #60

I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.

Bullshit and you people that keep spamming this just make yourselves look stupid each time you type it.  Mining gold that costs a million dollars an ounce to produce in space is not viable and is absolutely ZERO threat to anyone that purchased gold that was mined on earth.  Since silver weighs more/takes up more space for what they would be trying to bring back, it's even LESS viable to mine in space and was already a better buy than gold anyway.  So stop even talking about gold in the first place when the GSR is 80:1 and silver is like god himself walking up and handing you a platter of free money by buying it instead.
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