No threads on the ETN?

[cellard]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

[pempek19]

Waiting for a great news for bitcoin, it will be "to the moon again? No one knows, but i trust it must be happen.

[LeGaulois]

It's only a 1-week old product and no hype about it. Pretty sure most people don't know about it (including me). That's why we don't see any major movement to the market. This said it can be a great alternative to ETFs

[jseverson]

Worth noting that this has been available since 2017 and not many people cared then either:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/scandinavia-leads-europe-latest-bitcoin-exchange-traded-note-launch/

Then again, ETFs require the fund to actually hold the asset it tracks while ETNs don't, so the difference in hype may lie there. ETNs don't actually help the market while ETFs can.

[stompix]

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  
Who writes this stuff?

[John_Davis]

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  
Who writes this stuff?

Esoteric!! Oh boy, I haven't had that good of a laugh at Bloomberg in a long time. Those fools are just writing fluff in hopes that some dumb fool feels the need to purchase their $5000 a month "news" platform.

ETN is exactly what the market does not need. That's just another step closer to a fractional reserve type currency where they just sell the air you breathe and call it an asset. Useless.

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.

[darkangel11]

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.

Physically backed ones are, but there's a ton of derivative-based ETFs that are applying. ONe of them is probably going to get rejected tomorrow. Just wait for the noobs to start selling when they hear the news. You know what is becoming the easiest way to part newbies with their coins? File for SEC approval and get rejected. It doesn't matter what idiocies you were proposing, idiots will sell hearing that the SEC does not approve of Bitcoin.

[gentlemand]

Worth noting that this has been available since 2017 and not many people cared then either:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/scandinavia-leads-europe-latest-bitcoin-exchange-traded-note-launch/

Then again, ETFs require the fund to actually hold the asset it tracks while ETNs don't, so the difference in hype may lie there. ETNs don't actually help the market while ETFs can.

This ETN is voluntarily backed 1-1 so it's not pure paper like many others. If it was taken up with a vengeance it would have a market effect.

Could this be a wee omen for any ETF that actually did pass? There've been many other things that were going to 'save' us like the LedgerX thing and nothing was heard from them again once they got going.

Nothing launched now will have much take up. Interest is dead. I expect this to see a major uptick in a bubble just like everything else.

[darkangel11]

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

This is so shady. Since the SEC did not approve anything similar to that on US soil and the Swedish fund doesn't allow US citizens to invest, somebody had to find a way to go around it and instead of launching the ETF in the US it's launching a derivative of a fund that is not holding BTC, so it's also a derivative. So, a US citizen is buying a local derivative of a Swedish derivative that is based on the value of a volatile cryptocurrency. It's like an EU citizen lending money to someone in Africa through a third party based in India. How could this go wrong?  

[avikz]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

ETNs are not exactly similar to ETFs. In ETN, the notes are traded with a significant amount of premium unlike ETF. For ETF, there is no premium to be paid on the price of the underlying asset. So ETF is more suitable for the small investors like us compared to ETN. Probably that is the reason we are not seeing much excitement about ETN among the community.

Also an ETN is usually backed by a physical asset. However, I am not sure in this case. Most probably this ETN is backed by physical bitcoins. That is the reason why we have not seen any impact on the market either.

[jseverson]

Nothing launched now will have much take up. Interest is dead. I expect this to see a major uptick in a bubble just like everything else.

I don't think interest is still completely dead. I still see plenty of people talking about it. Since people seem to care more about its actual approval rather than what its approval will bring to the table, it's still likely to cause a spike, which in turn may trigger a bull run. The market will be running on hype like it always has.

Whatever though, I still don't believe any Bitcoin ETF will be approved anytime soon.

[pickledmuffin]

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  
Who writes this stuff?

Esoteric!! Oh boy, I haven't had that good of a laugh at Bloomberg in a long time. Those fools are just writing fluff in hopes that some dumb fool feels the need to purchase their $5000 a month "news" platform.

ETN is exactly what the market does not need. That's just another step closer to a fractional reserve type currency where they just sell the air you breathe and call it an asset. Useless.

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.

Well they say your broker is usually broker then you... Have always been over priced and their time is up.

[HeraldoCrypto]

I was going to come in and talk trash thinking you were referring to electroneum. Glad to see I was wrong and ended up learning something. Had no idea about this. Cheers

[davis196]

We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 

[BCSHonda]

We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 

I also consider this really what the professional investors expect. To better the market, we need to recruit experienced investors. And those who really share the electronic money passion. Think of the community more. Need to solve the difficulties survive and boycott the bad guys.

[stompix]

This ETN is voluntarily backed 1-1 so it's not pure paper like many others. If it was taken up with a vengeance it would have a market effect.

What does "voluntarily" mean in this situation?

~

This is so shady. Since the SEC did not approve anything similar to that on US soil and the Swedish fund doesn't allow US citizens to invest, somebody had to find a way to go around it and instead of launching the ETF in the US it's launching a derivative of a fund that is not holding BTC, so it's also a derivative. So, a US citizen is buying a local derivative of a Swedish derivative that is based on the value of a volatile cryptocurrency. It's like an EU citizen lending money to someone in Africa through a third party based in India. How could this go wrong? 

In about 1000 ways? 
Btw, it's not shady, it's esoteric.

Why would anyone buy this and not simply buy BTC is just puzzling.
At this point, this ETN is more difficult to figure out than BTC itself for the average Joe.

We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 

No, we don't "need' it but as long as there is money to be made people will keep inventing ways to trade to make more money and there is absolutely 0 we can do about.

[gentlemand]

What does "voluntarily" mean in this situation?

An ETN doesn't have to be backed by anything other than the issuer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange-traded_note

'An exchange-traded note (ETN) is a senior, unsecured, unsubordinated debt security issued by an underwriting bank. Similar to other debt securities, ETNs have a maturity date and are backed only by the credit of the issuer.'

Presumably the operators realised barely anyone would be interested in such a thing so they decided to make it properly backed. I dunno what rights or legalities there are about withdrawing that backing.

[atliens99]

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.

[stompix]

@gentlemand
Got it, a shi**er version of the ETF and because they are not getting customers they decide to act for a period like a real  ETF......

Although lately I was losing hope with the bitcoin community, I'm pretty happy to see them ignoring this one. Usually, every product newly launched no matter how stupid is, gets a fine piece of pie before it goes bust.

[BitHodler]

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.

Bear markets are similar in every industry, the only difference is that we in crypto cycle through bull and bear phases in a much faster pace. Current stock market bull run is going on for like 8-9 years.

If the stock market is going to correct, which it definitely will at some point, we'll likely see it go through a 5 year long bear market. By that time there won't be any good news that will do any good to the price.

Once the bullish momentum is no longer there nothing will be able to lift the market up, and the same applies to crypto. I know people here don't have much patience, but there is nothing else to do right now.

It seems that everyone is stressing out and desperately hope for an ETF to pass in order to lift the market up, but it's not going to happen. People shouldn't fool themselves that good news is important now. It's not.

[cellard]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

ETNs are not exactly similar to ETFs. In ETN, the notes are traded with a significant amount of premium unlike ETF. For ETF, there is no premium to be paid on the price of the underlying asset. So ETF is more suitable for the small investors like us compared to ETN. Probably that is the reason we are not seeing much excitement about ETN among the community.

Also an ETN is usually backed by a physical asset. However, I am not sure in this case. Most probably this ETN is backed by physical bitcoins. That is the reason why we have not seen any impact on the market either.

Not really. With an ETF, at least in the initial stages, you are going to need to be pretty much rich to invest. There are 0 chances that a low entry investment ETF gets passed, and the only ones that have a (low) probability of passing are the so called "certified investors" or whatever they deem it, basically it means that you must have a lot of money to own even 1 share. Consider that the latest effort was a 25 BTC-per-share ETF, so forget about small investors. ETN will have to do it while the ETFs remain for "qualified investors" only.

I predict that after the first ETF is passed, then we'll have lower and lower entry ETFs so the small investor will be able to own some too.

As far as these being derivatives of derivatives or whatever... for me it's all the same. If you don't own your keys you own 0 BTC, so who cares if people choose ETN or ETF, not my problem, they will have to consider what suits their needs or incapacity of keeping BTC's safe on their own.

[gentlemand]

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.

Good news never has much of an effect. There was no more or less good news when the price is exploding or in the toilet. Boom and bust cycles will play out in full no matter what the details are surrounding them.

[Sama517]

The ETF has already been rejected. Most people were scared that it was going to affect the market, but so far so good, no damage has been done. The prices have remained where they are. The ETF was just over hyped.

[nambunamba]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

I do think the same, why so many people are looking on etf too much. There is indeed a good project like ETN that also could help like ETF do. Our only hope for etf right now is vaneck and seems like SEC are reject every etf proposal today, and the only one that left is vaneck.

[RockBar0]

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.

Good news never has much of an effect. There was no more or less good news when the price is exploding or in the toilet. Boom and bust cycles will play out in full no matter what the details are surrounding them.

It was also considered a solution during this time. If you hear too much information and for a long time. Will cause confusion and mental crisis. It will be difficult to achieve your goals. Better not listen and have a clear plan.

[justspare]

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

I do not understand this.
I mean you are not buying bitcoin, you are basically buying into bitcoin price going up, you basically BET on the movement of bitcoin. What is the purpose of it ?

Like if you are not going to own the bitcoins you pay for, why even get into this ?
Are they trying to make betting on bitcoin prices easier for people who are not interested in the tech side of the things ?

Like some people are worrying that having bitcoin could somehow would cause them headaches (wallets, exchanges, confirmations, hell even scam exchanges that keeps your funds without notification) well than this would make bitcoin go public and at the hands of people who had hard time actually buy it and I support it.

[jseverson]

It seems that everyone is stressing out and desperately hope for an ETF to pass in order to lift the market up, but it's not going to happen. People shouldn't fool themselves that good news is important now. It's not.

The initial hype where news media were reporting that a Bitcoin ETF was sure to be approved was able to spark a $2k spike though. It could be argued that an actual approval could have a larger effect.

The ETF isn't going to happen anytime soon, but good news have always been important in the crypto market and I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future. It just so happens that this ETN isn't being talked about by anyone important and is hard to grasp for the average joe to boot, so it's dismissed as trivial. Makes me wonder, if the Winkelvoss twins hadn't been actively pushing for a Bitcoin ETF, would people even care about them?

[stompix]

Well, this turned ugly pretty fast:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-markets-volatile-after-us-sec-suspends-trading-in-two-crypto-based-securities

US regulators banned trading of XBT Provider’s Bitcoin and Ether Tracker One securities Sunday, September 9, briefly sending cryptocurrency markets tumbling.

Citing “confusion” among investors, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) issued a notice that two exchange-traded notes (ETNs) –  Bitcoin Tracker One (“CXBTF”) and Ether Tracker One (“CETHF”) –  would cease trading until September 20.

“The Commission temporarily suspended trading in the securities CXBTF and CETHF because of confusion amongst market participants regarding these instruments,” the SEC’s statement reads, continuing:

“[T]he Commission cautions broker-dealers, shareholders, and prospective purchasers that they should carefully consider the foregoing information along with all other currently available information and any information subsequently issued by the company.”

Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

Funny how it didn't do much when it opened but it is doing a lot when is suspended 

[BitHodler]

Makes me wonder, if the Winkelvoss twins hadn't been actively pushing for a Bitcoin ETF, would people even care about them?

It depends on the momentum, really. It has happened before that events that had no initial hype to them suddenly came to life months later because of how the mass started to pick up on it.

Currently the only reason people hype up ETFs is because of how they desperately hope to wipe out their on-paper losses. If the market kept going up instead of correcting people wouldn't even bother with ETFs.

Most people before the bull run didn't even know what an ETF was. It's really the momentum that makes or breaks certain events, and the bearish momentum makes people badly crave for an ETF.

[HE[A]RTLESS]

Waiting for a great news for bitcoin, it will be "to the moon again? No one knows, but i trust it must be happen.

everyone waiting but when look at market today.....................we need to wait more and more