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Author Topic: No threads on the ETN?  (Read 158 times)
cellard
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August 21, 2018, 01:48:41 PM
 #1

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

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August 21, 2018, 02:56:24 PM
 #2

Waiting for a great news for bitcoin, it will be "to the moon again? No one knows, but i trust it must be happen.

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August 21, 2018, 04:31:59 PM
 #3

It's only a 1-week old product and no hype about it. Pretty sure most people don't know about it (including me). That's why we don't see any major movement to the market. This said it can be a great alternative to ETFs

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August 22, 2018, 08:26:44 AM
 #4

Worth noting that this has been available since 2017 and not many people cared then either:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/scandinavia-leads-europe-latest-bitcoin-exchange-traded-note-launch/

Then again, ETFs require the fund to actually hold the asset it tracks while ETNs don't, so the difference in hype may lie there. ETNs don't actually help the market while ETFs can.

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August 22, 2018, 06:21:28 PM
 #5

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

Quote
If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin
Grin Grin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Quote
Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  Grin
Who writes this stuff?

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August 22, 2018, 07:17:53 PM
 #6

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

Quote
If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin
Grin Grin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Quote
Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  Grin
Who writes this stuff?


Esoteric!! Oh boy, I haven't had that good of a laugh at Bloomberg in a long time. Those fools are just writing fluff in hopes that some dumb fool feels the need to purchase their $5000 a month "news" platform.

ETN is exactly what the market does not need. That's just another step closer to a fractional reserve type currency where they just sell the air you breathe and call it an asset. Useless.

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.
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August 22, 2018, 08:07:09 PM
 #7

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.

Physically backed ones are, but there's a ton of derivative-based ETFs that are applying. ONe of them is probably going to get rejected tomorrow. Just wait for the noobs to start selling when they hear the news. You know what is becoming the easiest way to part newbies with their coins? File for SEC approval and get rejected. It doesn't matter what idiocies you were proposing, idiots will sell hearing that the SEC does not approve of Bitcoin.

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August 22, 2018, 08:16:04 PM
 #8

Worth noting that this has been available since 2017 and not many people cared then either:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/scandinavia-leads-europe-latest-bitcoin-exchange-traded-note-launch/

Then again, ETFs require the fund to actually hold the asset it tracks while ETNs don't, so the difference in hype may lie there. ETNs don't actually help the market while ETFs can.

This ETN is voluntarily backed 1-1 so it's not pure paper like many others. If it was taken up with a vengeance it would have a market effect.

Could this be a wee omen for any ETF that actually did pass? There've been many other things that were going to 'save' us like the LedgerX thing and nothing was heard from them again once they got going.

Nothing launched now will have much take up. Interest is dead. I expect this to see a major uptick in a bubble just like everything else.




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August 22, 2018, 08:18:07 PM
 #9

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

Quote
If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin
Grin Grin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

This is so shady. Since the SEC did not approve anything similar to that on US soil and the Swedish fund doesn't allow US citizens to invest, somebody had to find a way to go around it and instead of launching the ETF in the US it's launching a derivative of a fund that is not holding BTC, so it's also a derivative. So, a US citizen is buying a local derivative of a Swedish derivative that is based on the value of a volatile cryptocurrency. It's like an EU citizen lending money to someone in Africa through a third party based in India. How could this go wrong?  Grin

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August 22, 2018, 09:53:21 PM
 #10

Everyone seems to be obsessed with the SEC's approval or rejection of the next phase of the ETF in a couple of days, which will be obviously dennied and my thesis is the market is smart enough to know this and so the rejection is already priced in which means there will be no dump.

However, no one seems to be talking about the ETN, which would allow investors immediate access to "BTC shares" without all the bullshit that the ETF needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-15/lovelorn-u-s-bitcoin-etf-fans-may-find-satisfaction-in-sweden

More info there. Looks like it's already opened? didn't do much market wise.

ETNs are not exactly similar to ETFs. In ETN, the notes are traded with a significant amount of premium unlike ETF. For ETF, there is no premium to be paid on the price of the underlying asset. So ETF is more suitable for the small investors like us compared to ETN. Probably that is the reason we are not seeing much excitement about ETN among the community.

Also an ETN is usually backed by a physical asset. However, I am not sure in this case. Most probably this ETN is backed by physical bitcoins. That is the reason why we have not seen any impact on the market either.

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August 23, 2018, 06:28:11 AM
 #11

Nothing launched now will have much take up. Interest is dead. I expect this to see a major uptick in a bubble just like everything else.

I don't think interest is still completely dead. I still see plenty of people talking about it. Since people seem to care more about its actual approval rather than what its approval will bring to the table, it's still likely to cause a spike, which in turn may trigger a bull run. The market will be running on hype like it always has.

Whatever though, I still don't believe any Bitcoin ETF will be approved anytime soon.

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August 23, 2018, 06:38:26 AM
 #12

The first line in that Bloomberg article sums up everything pretty nice, no need to read it all...

Quote
If you want to buy Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin
Grin Grin

The same way you can buy gold and when the times comes you realize that you can't make even an engagement ring from the ten kilos of paper gold you have in your safe.

And a second paragraph made me really laugh:

Quote
Unlike exchange-traded funds, ETNs are debt instruments that are backed by their issuers -- often a bank -- rather than a pool of assets and often focus on esoteric strategies that don’t easily fit in a fund.

That definitely convinced me to go all.....the way to the right corner and close that page  Grin
Who writes this stuff?


Esoteric!! Oh boy, I haven't had that good of a laugh at Bloomberg in a long time. Those fools are just writing fluff in hopes that some dumb fool feels the need to purchase their $5000 a month "news" platform.

ETN is exactly what the market does not need. That's just another step closer to a fractional reserve type currency where they just sell the air you breathe and call it an asset. Useless.

ETF's are a bit closer to the real thing, but if you want to invest in something, why don't you just buy the damned thing instead of paying your broker $30 a quarter and $10 a trade? Brokers are dinosaurs that are ready for mass extinction.

Well they say your broker is usually broker then you... Have always been over priced and their time is up.
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August 23, 2018, 06:45:42 AM
 #13

I was going to come in and talk trash thinking you were referring to electroneum. Glad to see I was wrong and ended up learning something. Had no idea about this. Cheers
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August 23, 2018, 07:00:06 AM
 #14

We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 

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August 23, 2018, 10:43:16 AM
 #15

We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 
I also consider this really what the professional investors expect. To better the market, we need to recruit experienced investors. And those who really share the electronic money passion. Think of the community more. Need to solve the difficulties survive and boycott the bad guys.

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August 23, 2018, 12:25:50 PM
 #16


This ETN is voluntarily backed 1-1 so it's not pure paper like many others. If it was taken up with a vengeance it would have a market effect.


What does "voluntarily" mean in this situation?

~

This is so shady. Since the SEC did not approve anything similar to that on US soil and the Swedish fund doesn't allow US citizens to invest, somebody had to find a way to go around it and instead of launching the ETF in the US it's launching a derivative of a fund that is not holding BTC, so it's also a derivative. So, a US citizen is buying a local derivative of a Swedish derivative that is based on the value of a volatile cryptocurrency. It's like an EU citizen lending money to someone in Africa through a third party based in India. How could this go wrong?  Grin

In about 1000 ways?  Grin
Btw, it's not shady, it's esoteric.

Why would anyone buy this and not simply buy BTC is just puzzling.
At this point, this ETN is more difficult to figure out than BTC itself for the average Joe.


We already have bitcoin futures trading and even CFDs(contracts for difference) for bitcoin.Do we need another derivative that will help "buying bitcoin without actually buying bitcon"?Those derivatives are created for investors,who are too scared to sumply buy bitcoin and HODL it.To be honest,I don't think that we need such type of investors in the crypto community. 

No, we don't "need' it but as long as there is money to be made people will keep inventing ways to trade to make more money and there is absolutely 0 we can do about.

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August 23, 2018, 02:05:03 PM
 #17

What does "voluntarily" mean in this situation?

An ETN doesn't have to be backed by anything other than the issuer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange-traded_note

'An exchange-traded note (ETN) is a senior, unsecured, unsubordinated debt security issued by an underwriting bank. Similar to other debt securities, ETNs have a maturity date and are backed only by the credit of the issuer.'

Presumably the operators realised barely anyone would be interested in such a thing so they decided to make it properly backed. I dunno what rights or legalities there are about withdrawing that backing.

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August 23, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
 #18

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.

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August 23, 2018, 02:20:47 PM
 #19

@gentlemand
Got it, a shi**er version of the ETF and because they are not getting customers they decide to act for a period like a real  ETF......

Although lately I was losing hope with the bitcoin community, I'm pretty happy to see them ignoring this one. Usually, every product newly launched no matter how stupid is, gets a fine piece of pie before it goes bust.




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August 23, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
 #20

I've learned to just ignore the news at this point, seems no matter if the news is good the prie continues to be stagnant, these markets make no sense sometimes.
Bear markets are similar in every industry, the only difference is that we in crypto cycle through bull and bear phases in a much faster pace. Current stock market bull run is going on for like 8-9 years.

If the stock market is going to correct, which it definitely will at some point, we'll likely see it go through a 5 year long bear market. By that time there won't be any good news that will do any good to the price.

Once the bullish momentum is no longer there nothing will be able to lift the market up, and the same applies to crypto. I know people here don't have much patience, but there is nothing else to do right now.

It seems that everyone is stressing out and desperately hope for an ETF to pass in order to lift the market up, but it's not going to happen. People shouldn't fool themselves that good news is important now. It's not.

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