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Author Topic: Lost trading history  (Read 168 times)
cellard
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August 21, 2018, 07:30:08 PM
 #1

I lost my trading history on Livecoin, which I had to use because I wanted to get some coins of an altcoin that I was interested in and it was only trading there at relevant volumes.

Anyway, the big problem is obviously taxes. These fuckers had, in tiny letters: "We only store the last 30 days of trading history". I didn't see that, and when I saw it then guess what, my trades were lost.

So basically, now I have lost the trading I did in exchange of BTC for another altcoin (particularly XSN aka Stakenet). The question is: How do I report these gains when the time comes to do so, if I lost the trades within Livecoin because apparently they don't have money to store the damn trading history for more than 30 days? This is ridiculous.

Oh and I've also got some trading history lost on dead exchanges of back in the day, like Mintpal. It has happened to many. I wonder what you did when you tried to cash out gains, and you didn't save the .csv file or whatever on time, meaning that you have no way to prove origin of your gains.

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August 21, 2018, 10:39:55 PM
 #2

I'm not sure what country you're from, but I personally never have to actually submit any proof of gains and trades. I just fill in what profits I have made and that's really it.

If you can declare your profits and trades in a similar way then do that, or if you're afraid of potential consequences you can always contact your tax agent before doing anything, which I think is the best option.

People here can only throw around with advice while it's your tax agent who knows what you should be doing. I have done plenty of trading on altcoin exchanges as well, but never bothered to pay tax.

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August 22, 2018, 06:38:48 AM
 #3

As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink

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August 22, 2018, 09:08:55 AM
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As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink
I agree with you that we do not need with our history in several exchanges, it may be enough with the recapitulation results from the profit calculation when we exchange it to FIAT and as you say honest with our profits by paying income tax is the best thing

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August 22, 2018, 03:54:23 PM
 #5

Speaking from experience in two rather different tax jurisdictions, I can concur that good faith is all that is required. The only evidence of income I ever needed to provide was my bank statements used to deposit/withdraw trading income from. As long as that tallied, it's fine. I personally also don't keep a strict accounting for a lot of exchanges, simply because my fiat transfers actually only take place with 2 exchanges, typically localbitcoins.

Every other transfer to and from other exchanges are all crypto, and when liquidated are moved to Bitcoin, then to Localbitcoins.

I know it can be helpful if you BUY Bitcoin to provide records of losses since this can be written off for tax (same as gambling losses). But since all my incoming Bitcoin is earned directly, I don't face this issue. What I'm saying is, as long as I don't liquidate BTC, I don't report it as income. Only realized (sold for fiat and withdrawn) is reported.

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August 23, 2018, 11:04:39 AM
 #6

Transaction history is really important for a traders since loss  coin that you did not received from purchasing and its not trace will be a big problem for you since you can not complain for you Tao have your coin or money back, try to send email to the developer and let them check it for you.
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August 23, 2018, 11:21:43 AM
 #7

I am laughing at the forum's issues. do you know what you say. like this lost trading history? Why is trading history crypto lose because of the collapse of the market price? I have the hard time getting to know what kind of thing like this cryptyocurrency so much to learn here so that the novice is better to master your cryptocurrency and the ones inside it.
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August 23, 2018, 04:11:23 PM
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You "may" not require your transaction history unless it is an audit case. For the time being you can manage with your bank statements, you'd be able to recall you purchase or sale history with the help of deposits and withdrawals. You can the report your gains income. But You may at times need to authenticate your income sources with a reliable, sufficient and appropriate evidence, in case a scrutiny falls on you. And if you are not able to verify your income sources, you may put yourself in some serious danger. So next time better be careful and try to maintain a record of your trading transactions.

cellard
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August 25, 2018, 04:53:47 PM
 #9

As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink

The problem is that governments often couldn't care less if you couldn't be proved wrong because there is no evidence. If they demand records and you don't have it, you could be in trouble.. hence why now im hesitant to ever sell coins whose origin is not really clear anymore because of situations like this one where you have lost partial or total records.

I have the transaction to the Livecoin deposit address, and when I get my coins out, I have the transaction to my address. So I have "coins going in-> coins going out".  However I think (im not sure) they also want all of your altcoin trades within the exchange, so that's why you should have the .csv files and I wasn't able to save that because they deleted it.

And in the case of Mintpal, I think I also have "coins going in-> coins going out", I would need to check, I think I labeled the deposit transaction as "Mintpal", however since the exchange is dead and I didn't take a screenshot of my deposit address... it could be a transaction to any address. I don't think there's a way to prove it went into an exchange and then out.

So im not sure anymore if im going to be able to ever sell these coins without ending up in trouble because the origin of the funds is unclear. Luckily I've never been much of a trader, but it's still very annoying, there was a period where I did a lot of trades and it's a pain in the ass now trying to make sense of all these transactions going in and out of exchanges.

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August 25, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
 #10

As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink

The problem is that governments often couldn't care less if you couldn't be proved wrong because there is no evidence. If they demand records and you don't have it, you could be in trouble.. hence why now im hesitant to ever sell coins whose origin is not really clear anymore because of situations like this one where you have lost partial or total records.

From what I've read, and in regards to US law, that's not really true. One of the only facts in this case is your provable income. That's what tax authorities base cases on. If you make a good faith effort to pay taxes on your provable income, there are no facts that can be used against you (in a court of law or otherwise).

I'm not sure where you are, but here, the IRS isn't particularly interested in the origin. They only have jurisdiction over the tax code. And they're probably not very interested regardless if you're income is 5-figures to low 6-figures. If you send a BTC output to an exchange and sell the proceeds, then pay the requisite taxes on the capital gains, the IRS has no reason or evidence to claim you owe additional taxes.* I'm not sure what kind of totalitarian regime you might live under, though?

* They are analyzing the blockchain, though. So I would keep that in mind if you're trying to keep some of your stash off the radar.

cellard
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August 31, 2018, 07:41:52 PM
 #11

As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink

The problem is that governments often couldn't care less if you couldn't be proved wrong because there is no evidence. If they demand records and you don't have it, you could be in trouble.. hence why now im hesitant to ever sell coins whose origin is not really clear anymore because of situations like this one where you have lost partial or total records.

From what I've read, and in regards to US law, that's not really true. One of the only facts in this case is your provable income. That's what tax authorities base cases on. If you make a good faith effort to pay taxes on your provable income, there are no facts that can be used against you (in a court of law or otherwise).

I'm not sure where you are, but here, the IRS isn't particularly interested in the origin. They only have jurisdiction over the tax code. And they're probably not very interested regardless if you're income is 5-figures to low 6-figures. If you send a BTC output to an exchange and sell the proceeds, then pay the requisite taxes on the capital gains, the IRS has no reason or evidence to claim you owe additional taxes.* I'm not sure what kind of totalitarian regime you might live under, though?

* They are analyzing the blockchain, though. So I would keep that in mind if you're trying to keep some of your stash off the radar.

I think it's delusional to claim they don't care about the origin, otherwise people would be selling illegal stuff on the darknet and then putting it into some exchange, making some gains and reporting it as capital gains.

Let's say you put 1 BTC in some exchange, and this BTC was made with signature campaign posting for instance, across a couple of years or so. You then x100 that in some exchange, and then you put your 100 BTC back into your Bitcoin Core wallet or whatever.

In 5 years Bitcoin goes past $100k, so you are sitting on 10 $million now, and you want to buy a million dollar house. When you cash out this million, they will obviously ask where the money came from.

You may have screenshots and whatever proving you got paid to post in some internet forum, but then, if you lost your altcoin trading history in the exchange, you cannot prove how you made this BTC go x100.

How this isn't a problem?

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August 31, 2018, 10:16:30 PM
 #12

As BitHodler mentioned, you wouldn't normally need to "prove" anything, unless you're being audited. And if you're being audited, the important thing is that your withdrawals (BTC that eventually makes its way to fiat exchanges) reconcile with what you report.

In this case, all you can really do is make a good faith effort to report correctly, based on your recollection and withdrawals. Anyway, your trading history is literally wiped out, so it's not like Livecoin could prove you wrong, right? Wink
Theres nothing to be proved when you wouldnt be asked out but i understand on how op is really making this a serious thing because we do know the thing we should really be ready at all time because anytime
we might be needed to provide those kind of proofs when they do already ask on where are your transactions related on the money you are converting.Each country do have taxation laws and i do understand on op's side.
Therefore, the thing on my mind  that Livecoin itself can give you out that certain informations about trading history unless if they completely delete all logs due to their own rules on having or listing last 30 days transactions which is really a disastrous thing for you on not to discover it earlier.
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September 01, 2018, 02:59:52 PM
 #13

How can you say that? yes, almost the trade is not strong today but does not mean that trading is outdated, the market is relatively low, so it's difficult to trade coins, so long term holds, traders will start again when the market is fine.
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September 01, 2018, 07:58:40 PM
 #14

Let's say you put 1 BTC in some exchange, and this BTC was made with signature campaign posting for instance, across a couple of years or so. You then x100 that in some exchange, and then you put your 100 BTC back into your Bitcoin Core wallet or whatever.

In 5 years Bitcoin goes past $100k, so you are sitting on 10 $million now, and you want to buy a million dollar house. When you cash out this million, they will obviously ask where the money came from.

You may have screenshots and whatever proving you got paid to post in some internet forum, but then, if you lost your altcoin trading history in the exchange, you cannot prove how you made this BTC go x100.

How this isn't a problem?

If you can't prove you how reached that figure, then you can't. In that case your local tax authority will look deeply into your story to see if it's plausible or just bogus to begin with, and based on that they could either just have you pay the tax amount you "owe" them (which is the most favorable outcome for you), or they in the worst case could seize your assets entirely.

It's a very tricky situation and I definitely understand your concerns. The problem with tax autorities is that they tend to stereotype people in the crypto space as being tax evaders, and that will definitely work against you in the forthcoming years, especially in case they are nitpicking about every pathetic little detail. They can only win, either a small chunk in tax payments or the whole amount. In other words, you are the loser.

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September 01, 2018, 09:29:43 PM
 #15

If you can't prove you how reached that figure, then you can't.

At the very least you will have an exchange address that you deposit to, and many exchanges are so shit they never change the deposit address so you can screenshot that. You will also have withdrawals from known exchange addresses.

You're a bit stuck if it comes to handing over trade by trade gains, but you could point to the overall origin of a large amount of BTC.

Much depends on where you live. I think only the Americans are psychotic enough to pursue everything to the end of the Earth. Most other places probably won't raise it unless multiple red flags pop up if you pay capital gains on a zero cost basis.

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September 08, 2018, 04:09:11 PM
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If you can't prove you how reached that figure, then you can't.

At the very least you will have an exchange address that you deposit to, and many exchanges are so shit they never change the deposit address so you can screenshot that. You will also have withdrawals from known exchange addresses.

You're a bit stuck if it comes to handing over trade by trade gains, but you could point to the overall origin of a large amount of BTC.

Much depends on where you live. I think only the Americans are psychotic enough to pursue everything to the end of the Earth. Most other places probably won't raise it unless multiple red flags pop up if you pay capital gains on a zero cost basis.

Many exchanges don't rotate deposit addresses. In fact, I believe Poloniex, at least the last time I used it, still had my old same deposit address after years. I've saved screenshots of these, the big problem here is, im talking about exchanges that no longer exist.

If the exchange no longer exists, and you don't have the trading history, or a screenshot for what's worth it.. (a screenshot could be manipulated anyway... if they get too nitpicky they may ask even for your login details?) how are you supposed to prove it? And anyone that has been around here for a long enough time may have lost trading history in similar ways. Remember that back then exchanges were insanely scammy and disappearing out of nowhere the next day, it was ridiculous, and it was still to new, so you were in uncharted territory, still learning, and maybe you weren't updating your trading history on every new trade you made, so there will be gaps in your trading history..

Honestly the only bitcoins that I feel that I can prove the origin of where I got them from are mostly signature campaign payments and not much else, because if you put your coins in an exchange and then withdraw them, and you don't have information of what happened within the exchange, then it's basically the same as mixing your coins.

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September 08, 2018, 08:57:55 PM
 #17

I seems that you still haven't got any clue about what to do.

Why don't you under a different name (fake identity) reach out to your local tax department and ask for advice? I don't think anyone here will be able to come up with a satisfying answer that will make you report your profits and what not with a peace of mind, so why not just reach out to the source of your concern?

I have done that before, and ironically enough, my local tax department has an actual desk for those who seek to be anonymous with questions. I still didn't use it because you never know how anonymous your are even when using that option, but using a fake identity definitely keeps you out of their aiming range. There is nothing to lose for you. Go for it.

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September 09, 2018, 12:38:20 AM
 #18

I seems that you still haven't got any clue about what to do.

Why don't you under a different name (fake identity) reach out to your local tax department and ask for advice? I don't think anyone here will be able to come up with a satisfying answer that will make you report your profits and what not with a peace of mind, so why not just reach out to the source of your concern?

I have done that before, and ironically enough, my local tax department has an actual desk for those who seek to be anonymous with questions. I still didn't use it because you never know how anonymous your are even when using that option, but using a fake identity definitely keeps you out of their aiming range. There is nothing to lose for you. Go for it.

Seems dead sensible. It's not as if he's trying to defraud anyone. I'm sure the taxman would vastly prefer to be approached and consulted rather than be treated like some type of boogeyman.

Apart from Americans again.

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September 09, 2018, 01:03:12 AM
 #19

I think it's delusional to claim they don't care about the origin, otherwise people would be selling illegal stuff on the darknet and then putting it into some exchange, making some gains and reporting it as capital gains.

Let's say you put 1 BTC in some exchange, and this BTC was made with signature campaign posting for instance, across a couple of years or so. You then x100 that in some exchange, and then you put your 100 BTC back into your Bitcoin Core wallet or whatever.

In 5 years Bitcoin goes past $100k, so you are sitting on 10 $million now, and you want to buy a million dollar house. When you cash out this million, they will obviously ask where the money came from.

You may have screenshots and whatever proving you got paid to post in some internet forum, but then, if you lost your altcoin trading history in the exchange, you cannot prove how you made this BTC go x100.

How this isn't a problem?

Al Capone got busted for tax evasion. He didn't get busted for inability to prove where his income was derived from. That's not a coincidence. The IRS does not ask for the origin. They only ask for very general categories of income (including itemized capital gains).

You're veering off into paranoia when you say that possessing money automatically means the presumption of illegal activity, and further that this warrants investigation by law enforcement agencies besides tax authorities. Do you have anything to support these theories, besides hypotheticals?

It's been explained already that the threshold (at least in the US) is whether reporting was "reasonable" and in "good faith." For example, see this answer from a licensed CPA:
Quote
Question: "If I have non-covered capital gains. and do not have a record of investment cost, how can I arrive at a cost for tax?"
Answer: "You need to enter a reasonable and good-faith estimate of cost basis.  The IRS is receiving the 1099-B information from the broker, but is relying on you to report the correct category and/or cost basis. Otherwise the entire proceeds will be considered gain.

(It would be unreasonable for the IRS to claim you did not pay anything for the investment (Cost basis = "0", total proceeds taxable). It would be unreasonable for you to claim the total proceeds as the cost basis (no taxable income)."

I'm really not sure where guys get these ideas about proof -- "if you can't prove the source, you'll lose everything or get dragged off to prison" etc. That sounds very outlandish to me. I've been filing tax returns on behalf of clients for many years as well as my own, and I deal with CPAs and tax authorities regularly.

Anyway, personally, I would avoid talking to the IRS directly about your own case. Consult a qualified tax professional (or two) and follow their advice. That way, if the IRS ever comes after you -- highly unlikely IMO if you pay your taxes with reasonable accuracy -- you'll have formed the basis for a "reasonable cause and good faith" defense.

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September 09, 2018, 01:13:13 AM
 #20

I told H&R block something like "This $ is how much BTC I sold, I've had BTC for a long time, It didn't cost me anything I made it"


They taxed the whole thing as long term cap gains and gave me audit insurance so if it doesn't fly it's H&R block's problem, not mine..

I even told them straight up that you will have to go through 10mm TXs from the exchanges still up and missing ones from dead exchanges and they said no problem..
I think I might have filed my bank statement showing the deposit with it..

My bank weirds me out sometimes though..
They always ask me what I'm buying and "What kind of car? What color?" kind of BS when I WD a large amount..
They are likely just trying to be nice and make conversation but it creeps me out..





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