Trump's campaign manager Manafort and his lawyer Cohen guilty of 8 felonies each

[Flying Hellfish]

I don't really understand that part, why does he want to pardon Manafort? Just because he didn't flip? It's not over yet, Manafort still has one federal suit pending and there's state-level tax fraud so he's likely going to jail even with the pardon.

Trump is friends with Manafort, he believes (maybe rightly) that Manafort would not be in any trouble if not for his association with Trump, and

It might also be fair to say that Manafort might not be in trouble if he wasn't committing felonies?  I guess criminals really are stupid in the end, who in the fuck takes a high profile job like that when engaged in felonies.

I guess one could suppose that the reason Manafort was associated with trump in the first place is because he was good at "stuff, wink wink" or would at least do them LOL.

Manafort is remaining loyal. Trump has proven throughout his presidency that the #1 thing he cares about is personal loyalty, so he will feel obligated to protect Manafort here.

I'd say Manafort is an idiot lol but that's just me.  I'm not sure Trump cares about anyone that can't do something for him tbh.  He certainly doesn't understand what loyalty to a wife is (although admittedly a lot of Presidents couldn't keep their dick in the pants).  He's a pretty classic narcissist and generally those personality types don't understand much outside of their world.

I'm curious if Manafort is taking it for Trump with something else still in his back pocket hoping he will get a pardon to keep quite on the rest?

Trump isn't the kind of person who can easily throw someone under the bus,

I mean unless your Mexican or a Women, am I right?  

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

[Spendulus]

.....

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

The 2/3 vote required in the Senate is impossible to achieve. These days everything is decided in the Senate by just a couple votes one way or the other.

This is all fake news. The more fake news express high negativity for Trump, the more certain factions are happy. As the Russia Collusion fabrications fade away, replace with New Bad Trumpies.

[squatz1]

It might also be fair to say that Manafort might not be in trouble if he wasn't committing felonies?  I guess criminals really are stupid in the end, who in the fuck takes a high profile job like that when engaged in felonies.

I guess one could suppose that the reason Manafort was associated with trump in the first place is because he was good at "stuff, wink wink" or would at least do them LOL.

I mean, nothing that Manafort did under Trump is being called under question as of right now. The only thing that is under question in all of the crimes that he's been found guilty of (and the crimes that there was a hung jury on) are crimes that have nothing to do with President Trump -- the have to do with Manaforts lobbying from 5 or so years ago. Which was under his own lobbying company.

I'm curious if Manafort is taking it for Trump with something else still in his back pocket hoping he will get a pardon to keep quite on the rest?

Or maybe he has nothing on Trump and just has to swallow his pride and take whatever the court gives him. Though this will probably just end up in appeals anyway, and who knows what the Manafort legal time will be able to do.

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

AH I SAID THIS BEFORE, NICE CATCH LIBERALS!!!!!

This is all fake news. The more fake news express high negativity for Trump, the more certain factions are happy. As the Russia Collusion fabrications fade away, replace with New Bad Trumpies.

High negativity makes the media money, they're going to keep doing this in order to keep their bottom line nice, fat, and green. They'll keep doing this to get more and more clicks to continue to pad their bottom lines.

Maybe the people will notice that the media can't be trusted, but maybe they won't.

[suchmoon]

I'd say Manafort is an idiot lol but that's just me.  I'm not sure Trump cares about anyone that can't do something for him tbh.  He certainly doesn't understand what loyalty to a wife is (although admittedly a lot of Presidents couldn't keep their dick in the pants).  He's a pretty classic narcissist and generally those personality types don't understand much outside of their world.

He's sensitive to flattery though, so that may play a role. Also presidential pardons are quite authoritarian - no Senate approval, no "deep state" departments to deal with, and no judges to overturn them  - so it's one of very few things that Trump can do pretty much on his own. Seems like everyone telling him "don't do it" will just encourage him even more.

[theymos]

LMAO... Trump is exactly the kind of person to throw everyone under the bus.

I meant that he won't throw people in his in-group under the bus.

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

Pence is a Cheney-style neocon. Very pro-war and authoritarian. So he'd probably get along well with the neoliberal Democratic establishment, even if they'd pretend to hate him due to his social views (which he's not in a position to do much about as president anyway).

[Moloch]

.....

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

The 2/3 vote required in the Senate is impossible to achieve. These days everything is decided in the Senate by just a couple votes one way or the other.

This is all fake news. The more fake news express high negativity for Trump, the more certain factions are happy. As the Russia Collusion fabrications fade away, replace with New Bad Trumpies.

I can't take anyone seriously who propagates an improper usage of the term 'fake news'.  Reporting things you disagree with is not "fake"... fake news is people like Alex Jones, who spreads nonsense about pizza shops until some guy shows up shooting an assault rifle around

[Azazel333]

.....

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

The 2/3 vote required in the Senate is impossible to achieve. These days everything is decided in the Senate by just a couple votes one way or the other.

This is all fake news. The more fake news express high negativity for Trump, the more certain factions are happy. As the Russia Collusion fabrications fade away, replace with New Bad Trumpies.

I can't take anyone seriously who propagates an improper usage of the term 'fake news'.  Reporting things you disagree with is not "fake"... fake news is people like Alex Jones, who spreads nonsense about pizza shops until some guy shows up shooting an assault rifle around

Alex Jones is about the realest news we get although he's been wrong about a few things. At least he is occasionally correct and makes predictions that no one else made years ago.

CNN has gotten less objective than RT (Russia Today)

[Spendulus]

.....

What is interesting to me is that if the left gets their wish and Trump is somehow impeached, Pence is probably fucking 10 times worse.

The 2/3 vote required in the Senate is impossible to achieve. These days everything is decided in the Senate by just a couple votes one way or the other.

This is all fake news. The more fake news express high negativity for Trump, the more certain factions are happy. As the Russia Collusion fabrications fade away, replace with New Bad Trumpies.

I can't take anyone seriously who propagates an improper usage of the term 'fake news'.  Reporting things you disagree with is not "fake"... fake news is people like Alex Jones, who spreads nonsense about pizza shops until some guy shows up shooting an assault rifle around

Alex Jones is about the realest news we get although he's been wrong about a few things. At least he is occasionally correct and makes predictions that no one else made years ago.

CNN has gotten less objective than RT (Russia Today)

Not just CNN....

[Steamtyme]

Alex Jones is about the realest news we get although he's been wrong about a few things. At least he is occasionally correct and makes predictions that no one else made years ago.

CNN has gotten less objective than RT (Russia Today)

I'd say wrong on more than a few things. Since when is a good standard of news that he occasionally is correct, and that these are predictions.

There is not one source of News that can be found to be impartial, and reporting to the standards the public deserves. Unfortunately I believe the industry forgot how to report objectively and to fact check sources. I would much rather have a story 2 days later, but with fact checked information delivered without bias or spin.

I meant that he won't throw people in his in-group under the bus.

With his group, you are only in it until you are not. Membership gets revoked at the slightest perceived slight or tarnishing of the Trump brand of politics. (Unless you are family, I'm guessing you get docked inheritance or something)

He's sensitive to flattery though, so that may play a role. Also presidential pardons are quite authoritarian - no Senate approval, no "deep state" departments to deal with, and no judges to overturn them  - so it's one of very few things that Trump can do pretty much on his own. Seems like everyone telling him "don't do it" will just encourage him even more.

Flattery only gets these people their high paying role. If you want to keep the job or receive a very public Pardon, it has to poll well with his base.

[Quickseller]

For a witch hunt, they sure seem to be finding a lot of witches.

The investigation is finding a lot of criminal activity, although much of the found criminal activity was previously known to investigators and it was decided to not pursue charges, meaning the charges were political in nature. 

WSJ: National Enquirer publisher David Pecker granted immunity
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/23/politics/david-pecker-immunity-cohen/index.html

This should be chilling. News organizations have 1st amendment exemptions to campaign finance laws, they are able to endorse candidates and otherwise provide favorable/unfavorable coverage to candidates (which is very valuable) without having to report the value of such on campaign reporting forms. It is also very common for a news outlet to investigate a story (regarding a candidate), only to not report said story because it is not credible (remember that anything a news outlet publishes will affect it's reputation). I would also point out that major news outlets frequently refrain from reporting favorable information about the current state of the economy and the county, even though they spend money obtaining this information -- none of this is reported on any campaign finance disclosure form.

From what I've heard, Cohen's guilty plea was unusual in that he seemed to plea guilty without actually cooperating with law enforcement or even seeking a typical plea deal. I wonder what that's about.

It is not entirely uncommon for defendants to plea guilty to a crime in exchange for some of the charges to be dropped. My understanding is that prosecutors were ready to charge Cohen with 20 counts of various crimes, and that the plea deal will prevent additional related charges from being brought.

And the campaign finance thing seems like a real stretch, since Trump has buried personally-damaging stories like this on several occasions before he was running for president.

The facts surrounding the bank fraud charges are likely illegal (the bringing of said charges are still political though), however the underlying facts around the campaign finance violations are almost certainly not illegal however. The test of if something is a campaign expense is to ask if someone would have incurred an expense if they were not running a campaign, and if they would have, it is not a campaign expense. For example, if you have a debate on Tuesday, you might get a massage on Monday to be relaxed for the debate, or get a haircut so you look sharp during the debate, however neither of these are campaign expenditures. Further, all campaign expenditures are paid out of the "campaign" so if one were to argue the campaign should have paid off Trump's former girlfriend for her silence, then the argument is that political donors (via the campaign) should be paying for this, which of course is hogwash. Even if one reason for the payment was to help his election chances, Trump would have made this payment if he was not running for office to protect his reputation and marriage, which makes this a personal expense.

In regards to Cohens tax fraud charges, it is more common for someone to get audited, and as a result of the audit, for the IRS to find shady business, charge the back taxes, and penalties, and to move on. My understanding is that the filing of an amended return (that results from an audit, although also otherwise) with correct information will prevent prosecutors from filing tax fraud charges.

In regards to all of the charges, I suspect that if Cohen had agreed to corporate to provide evidence against Trump, he likely would not have received any jail time, any fine, and the prosecutors likely would not have forced Cohen to file amended tax returns with corrected information (pay back taxes). See the deal that Gates got.

I think that Trump will pardon Manafort, which is a horrible move politically. Impeachment is unlikely, but if it does happen, we might end up looking back on that pardon as being the thing which ultimately resulted in Trump getting impeached. But a strong desire to pardon is understandable from Trump's perspective.

I think manafort should be pardoned. He should wait until the Mueller investigation is complete, or at least until Manafort is sentenced and it is clear he is unwilling (or much more likely, unable) to corporate.

I don't really understand that part, why does he want to pardon Manafort? Just because he didn't flip? It's not over yet, Manafort still has one federal suit pending and there's state-level tax fraud so he's likely going to jail even with the pardon.

Trump is friends with Manafort, he believes (maybe rightly) that Manafort would not be in any trouble if not for his association with Trump, and Manafort is remaining loyal. Trump has proven throughout his presidency that the #1 thing he cares about is personal loyalty, so he will feel obligated to protect Manafort here. Trump isn't the kind of person who can easily throw someone under the bus, and he will perceive not pardoning Manafort as doing so.

Manafort owns a condo in Trump tower in NY, and has likely known Trump for some time before his candidacy. Manafort was previously investigated and the FBI declined to pursue charges.

I don't think there is anything Manafort can say that would be harmful to Trump, however he can obviously make things up. If Manafort does makes things up, he is risking Trump allowing him to spend the rest of his life in jail, essentially for no reason.

[theymos]

And the campaign finance thing seems like a real stretch, since Trump has buried personally-damaging stories like this on several occasions before he was running for president.

A former chair of the Federal Election Commission agrees that the campaign finance stuff has no merit: https://www.c-span.org/video/?450698-4/washington-journal-bradley-smith-discusses-michael-cohens-plea-deal-campaign-finance-laws

[GreenBits]

And the campaign finance thing seems like a real stretch, since Trump has buried personally-damaging stories like this on several occasions before he was running for president.

A former chair of the Federal Election Commission agrees that the campaign finance stuff has no merit: https://www.c-span.org/video/?450698-4/washington-journal-bradley-smith-discusses-michael-cohens-plea-deal-campaign-finance-laws

 

The office of the POTUS used to be a damned near sacred thing. An office of respect, prestige. Great men who put themselves to the side to serve country. Above party, race, above all.

When we do MAGA, I'd like to return to the time when that was the case 

[Spendulus]

And the campaign finance thing seems like a real stretch, since Trump has buried personally-damaging stories like this on several occasions before he was running for president.

A former chair of the Federal Election Commission agrees that the campaign finance stuff has no merit: https://www.c-span.org/video/?450698-4/washington-journal-bradley-smith-discusses-michael-cohens-plea-deal-campaign-finance-laws

The finance thing is laughable, Mueller is essentially arguing that a man cannot contribute to his own campaign IF it is done through an intermediary such as an attorney.

As for the "bank charges," those date from a period in time when foreign bank accounts were routinely not reported. Remember UBI and their US customers' overseas accounts? Thousands of US citizens received amnesty by admitting and reporting. Sure, during those days not reporting was illegal.

But the existence of that huge amnesty program was only the tip of the iceberg. Those were the days when the US was starting to tighten the screws on surveillance of US citizens and their affairs, and that was one part.

[Flying Hellfish]

I'm curious if Manafort is taking it for Trump with something else still in his back pocket hoping he will get a pardon to keep quite on the rest?

Guess it's time to sing like a little bitch eh?  LOL a presidents chairman manager pleads guilty to more felonies, agrees to forfeit everything and co-operate fully with special counsel hahaha this is going to get fun!  He also gets to sit in custody until his co-operation is done.  Oh I like the part where Manafort has to waive his right to have his counsel present during interviews and debriefings!!!

Manafort must think he has enough dirt on Trump to make himself worthwhile to Mueller.  Trump should pardon Manafort lol.

[Quickseller]

I'm curious if Manafort is taking it for Trump with something else still in his back pocket hoping he will get a pardon to keep quite on the rest?

Guess it's time to sing like a little bitch eh?  LOL a presidents chairman manager pleads guilty to more felonies, agrees to forfeit everything and co-operate fully with special counsel hahaha this is going to get fun!  He also gets to sit in custody until his co-operation is done.  Oh I like the part where Manafort has to waive his right to have his counsel present during interviews and debriefings!!!

Manafort must think he has enough dirt on Trump to make himself worthwhile to Mueller.  Trump should pardon Manafort lol.

Rick Gates, who was Manafort right hand man, and who stayed on the campaign after Manafort resigned from the campaign has been cooperating for months, so presumably Mueller would have information regarding the Trump campaign that manafort could offer, if any exists.

Further, based upon the fact that the FBI was spying on the trump campaign, I would find it unlikely that Manafort would have information that the FBI, and the Mueller team doesn’t already know about.

I agree that Manafort should get pardoned, but not for trump to protect himself.

[suchmoon]

Rick Gates, who was Manafort right hand man, and who stayed on the campaign after Manafort resigned from the campaign has been cooperating for months, so presumably Mueller would have information regarding the Trump campaign that manafort could offer, if any exists.

Further, based upon the fact that the FBI was spying on the trump campaign, I would find it unlikely that Manafort would have information that the FBI, and the Mueller team doesn’t already know about.

So why would they cut him a deal? And why would he take it if he knows that he can't deliver any new info AND he's throwing away the chance of a pardon.

I agree that Manafort should get pardoned, but not for trump to protect himself.

Not after this. Trump isn't gonna pardon a snitch.

[Quickseller]

Rick Gates, who was Manafort right hand man, and who stayed on the campaign after Manafort resigned from the campaign has been cooperating for months, so presumably Mueller would have information regarding the Trump campaign that manafort could offer, if any exists.

Further, based upon the fact that the FBI was spying on the trump campaign, I would find it unlikely that Manafort would have information that the FBI, and the Mueller team doesn’t already know about.

So why would they cut him a deal? And why would he take it if he knows that he can't deliver any new info AND he's throwing away the chance of a pardon.

I agree that Manafort should get pardoned, but not for trump to protect himself.

Not after this. Trump isn't gonna pardon a snitch.

You don’t know what Manafort is going to tell Mueller. I have read that he may give dirt on Podesta or others in his circle.

He is also pleading guilty to specific crimes that would make it difficult to mount a defense if his convictions are overturned on appeal.

My understanding is that Manafort was previously investigated many years ago and authorities declined to pursue charges. I also understand that Mueller didn’t uncover substantial additional information about Manafort. These facts make me come to the conclusion that Manafort would not have been prosecuted except for his connection to Trump.

[theymos]

Manafort's guilty plea surprised me a lot. I hope at some point we get all of the details behind this.

Not after this. Trump isn't gonna pardon a snitch.

Agreed.

[Flying Hellfish]

So why would they cut him a deal? And why would he take it if he knows that he can't deliver any new info AND he's throwing away the chance of a pardon.

The only reason to cut him a deal is because Mueller needs something else from him.  This is classic legal investigation tactics he is working his way up the ladder, Kushner, Jr and Ivanka are next don't be surprised.

Rick Gates, who was Manafort right hand man, and who stayed on the campaign after Manafort resigned from the campaign has been cooperating for months, so presumably Mueller would have information regarding the Trump campaign that manafort could offer, if any exists.

Well that is stupid logic and just illustrates your lack of understanding of how legal investigations work, your saying Gates knew EVERYTHING Manafort knows...  Gee I wonder if Manafort did stuff Gates maybe didn't know about hmm or took care of things Gates didn't know about, nah I guess that's not even remotely possible.

Gee I also wonder if Mueller needs corroborating witness's, even if Gates knows EVERYTHING Manafort and Trump did, Mueller still needs corroborating evidence AS MUCH OF IT AS HE CAN GET HIS HANDS ON, you know to support his overall case....

Look Manafort gave up EVERYTHING and Mueller gave up very little.  The reason Manafort turned is because he trusts Mueller more now than Trump LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Manafort has dirt on the next level in the mob or the top level or Mueller would have let him rot on trial or forced a straight up guilty plea with no conditions.  

Do you think Manafort's lawyers didn't explore the possibility of a guilty plea with no co-operation deal, of course not but that option didn't exist because Mueller needed something from Manafort.

If all you smart guys round here actually thought about this as an investigation instead of looking at the politics you would see that Trump is FUCKED.  Manafort guilty and co-op deal is a fucking bomb like it or not Trumpies!

These facts make me come to the conclusion that Manafort would not have been prosecuted except for his connection to Trump.

1 other tiny little thing you left out, he committed the crimes you know he probably wouldn't have been prosecuted if he hadn't committed actual felonies either...  

Just because he may or may not have been investigated before doesn't mean new information hasn't come to light to suggest further investigation and actual prosecution this time...

For a smart guy your logical fallacies are pretty significant, no wonder you love trump!

Manafort's guilty plea surprised me a lot. I hope at some point we get all of the details behind this.

Wait for Kushner's plea that's probably gonna surprise you when it happens too!

[suchmoon]

You don’t know what Manafort is going to tell Mueller. I have read that he may give dirt on Podesta or others in his circle.

He is also pleading guilty to specific crimes that would make it difficult to mount a defense if his convictions are overturned on appeal.

My understanding is that Manafort was previously investigated many years ago and authorities declined to pursue charges. I also understand that Mueller didn’t uncover substantial additional information about Manafort. These facts make me come to the conclusion that Manafort would not have been prosecuted except for his connection to Trump.

You don't know that either. He could have dirt on his neighbor who's parking too close to a fire hydrant. But seeing how Mueller referred Podesta and other lobbyists to prosecutors in New York and already had Podesta's former employees spilling the dirt I'd say it's more likely that he's going after Trump's circle with this plea deal.