Calling Gavin Andresen and others, possibility of restoring MtGox's coins.

[justusranvier]

Bitcoin is supposed to work without the need for a trusted third party. If that were true, we wouldn't be here discussing MK's evil deeds.

Bitcoin works fine without a trusted third party.

Bitcoin users who refrained from trusting any third parties lost exactly zero bitcoins.

Bitcoin promises to let your "be your own bank". If you decide to be your own daytrader then you're on your own.

I agree. However it's a fact that an inordinately large number of people chose to entrust their bitcoins to an unreliable third party such as Mt.Gox. The resulting disaster and those that may follow along the same lines can be tackled either

a) by pointing out , not without reason, that this is a non-issue, since in the bitcoin world it's every man for himself. That's fine , but it may scare off the naive adopter, i.e. the vast majority of people, compromising bitcoin's success.

or

b)  by introducing regulation for exchanges, i.e. turning them into banks, transforming the current bitcoin model into something quite different.

or

c) Better software

All this talk about regulation is a smokescreen for convincing the community to surrender to the vampire squid. Everybody pushing this line of shit can fuck off.

[Stammer]

...

Many people have withdrawn their money since last June. The red flag was there for months. People staying there were either playing with fire, lazy, or simply ignorant.

Although that might be a good idea to regulate bitcoin exchange, that is irrelevant to the bitcoin as a currency or protocol. You don't need an exchange to spend or receive bitcoin.

Many people believed in bitcoin and got badly burnt. If you are suggesting that only sophisticated investors should use bitcoin, so be it.

Anyways, regulation can be enforced only by governments and in ways that they see fit. If regulation comes into the bitcoin world, I expect it to be intrusive and impose rules on the way bitcoin works. NB When I refer to the bitcoin model I don't mean just the intellectual and technical marvels of the bitcoin protocol, but to the way bitcoin plays out in the practice of people's lives, which IMO is what matters.

[Entropy-uc]

...

Many people have withdrawn their money since last June. The red flag was there for months. People staying there were either playing with fire, lazy, or simply ignorant.

Although that might be a good idea to regulate bitcoin exchange, that is irrelevant to the bitcoin as a currency or protocol. You don't need an exchange to spend or receive bitcoin.

Many people believed in bitcoin and got badly burnt. If you are suggesting that only sophisticated investors should use bitcoin, so be it.

Anyways, regulation can be enforced only by governments and in ways that they see fit. If regulation comes into the bitcoin world, I expect it to be intrusive and impose rules on the way bitcoin works. NB When I refer to the bitcoin model I don't mean just the intellectual and technical marvels of the bitcoin protocol, but to the way bitcoin plays out in the practice of people's lives, which IMO is what matters.

Believers in Bitcoin were not burnt.

Believers in MtGox were burnt.  The warnings were obvious to me 2 years ago.  By 6 months ago even a gadfly like the Winkelevii knew to get out of the way.

MPOE-PR said it best over a year ago.  MtGox must die for Bitcoin to move forward.

[Biomech]

Bitcoin is supposed to work without the need for a trusted third party. If that were true, we wouldn't be here discussing MK's evil deeds.

Bitcoin does work without the need for a trusted third party.   That being said you can't by technology prohibit people from using a third party.  Satoshi never outlined a system which would prohibit voluntary association.  Sadly many people opts out of the trusted third party model by using MtGox.  Not just using them as a temporary exchange service (and yes even in a model which has no trusted third party there is a level of trust needed between consumer and merchant/service provider), but using them as a long term storage of coins.  In essence using them as a bank without insurance or oversight.  

MtGox is dead.  Bitcoin still functions.  I made transactions all week long and none of them failed or were delayed because of MtGox.  Bitcoin is a revolutionary technology and for many concepts like

If you do not have the private key for "your" bitcoins, then you have no bitcoins.

until now have seemed like quaint phrases.  Many people will never see the risk until after the catastrophic event.   It has now happened.  Hopefully people (collectively) will learn from this and use Bitcoin as Satoshi intended.  Keep control of your own wealth and don't hand that responsibility over to an untrusted third party.

Perhaps I'm just inherently paranoid, but I have never kept coins online since my beginning with bitcoin. They are stored in my wallet, on my computer, a couple CD's, some flash drives, etc. I hold the keys, and my password is ridiculously random and highly encrypted.

I have used online wallets as a temporary measure, such as exchanging them for fiat or 1 day portability, but never more than 24 hours and never my whole wad. I use banks in the fiat world because I have little choice, but in Bitcoin, what's the point?

This seemed obvious to me even before I looked into Mtgox. What I saw there, two years ago, was a company that was either no good with money or deliberately fraudulent. People tend to forgive the former, but frankly I have less contempt for the fraudulent! Being stupid at your PRIMARY business is just inexcusable. In either case, they deserved to fail. Their customers did not deserve to be bankrupted along with them, though they should have exercised better diligence given Gox's history.

Edit. Former for latter. Oops.

[Biomech]

Bitcoin is supposed to work without the need for a trusted third party. If that were true, we wouldn't be here discussing MK's evil deeds.

Bitcoin works fine without a trusted third party.

Bitcoin users who refrained from trusting any third parties lost exactly zero bitcoins.

Bitcoin promises to let your "be your own bank". If you decide to be your own daytrader then you're on your own.

I agree. However it's a fact that an inordinately large number of people chose to entrust their bitcoins to an unreliable third party such as Mt.Gox. The resulting disaster and those that may follow along the same lines can be tackled either

a) by pointing out , not without reason, that this is a non-issue, since in the bitcoin world it's every man for himself. That's fine , but it may scare off the naive adopter, i.e. the vast majority of people, compromising bitcoin's success.

or

b)  by introducing regulation for exchanges, i.e. turning them into banks, transforming the current bitcoin model into something quite different.

Or c) Holding people accountable for their actions, and requiring a high level of thought, diligence, and TRANSPARENCY from those we choose to be custodians of our treasure. Prior to being owned by governments (or the reverse, if we're to be honest) banks were beholden to their customers FIRST. Those who failed in that ceased to exist.

Those of you seeing this as a failure of a free market system need to educate yourselves on how the "invisible hand" actually works. This is a failure of a sub par company, which is a SUCCESS for the free market. A bad actor has been removed. Not bailed out. Not being "too big to fail".

If their intent was good, they were too incompetent to be in the business they were in. If they were fraudulent, then they deserve to be caught, fleeced as much as possible, hung out to dry, and consigned to the dustbin of history as a fine example of how not to run a business. Free markets are self correcting, and as in the case of most things in life, Stupidity on any actor's part is often painful and frequently fatal. The lesson to be learned from that is not to be stupid.

[Biomech]

...

Many people have withdrawn their money since last June. The red flag was there for months. People staying there were either playing with fire, lazy, or simply ignorant.

Although that might be a good idea to regulate bitcoin exchange, that is irrelevant to the bitcoin as a currency or protocol. You don't need an exchange to spend or receive bitcoin.

Many people believed in bitcoin and got badly burnt. If you are suggesting that only sophisticated investors should use bitcoin, so be it.

Anyways, regulation can be enforced only by governments and in ways that they see fit. If regulation comes into the bitcoin world, I expect it to be intrusive and impose rules on the way bitcoin works. NB When I refer to the bitcoin model I don't mean just the intellectual and technical marvels of the bitcoin protocol, but to the way bitcoin plays out in the practice of people's lives, which IMO is what matters.

I'm gonna run with this, speaking for myself rather than the OP. I think that investors should be more sophisticated. I am not good at exchange games, therefore I play them very cautiously with a goal to learning. And I EXPECT to lose, thus I do not lose that which I cannot afford. I don't INTEND to lose, but I am a novice and I know it and act accordingly.

I think the moral hazard inherent in the funny money that has been foisted upon us since the early 20th century has made most of us complacent and unsophisticated in a manner that would perplex our ancestors to no end. I guarantee that when money was still golden, people were MUCH more circumspect with whom they trusted. And those so trusted earned it. Those who didn't quite often ended up on the wrong end of a rope or a gun. Hard consequence? Yes. Effective? Yes. It was and remains a good model. The fact that bitcoin functions on that same model is a STRENGTH of the concept, not a weakness. There is little moral hazard involved in the circulation of bitcoin, as it IS scarce, it IS irreversable, and it DOES require the individual actor to have a brain. I think this makes it superior to most other currencies. I don't think it superior to gold, but it does have some advantages even there. Mainly easy portability.

If you look at it from a market point of view, this is a good thing in the long run. It's a wake up call for the complacent, a loss of malinvestment, and a good chance for all bitcoiners to clean their own house. Exchanges are necessary, but they are now going to be under far more scrutiny FROM US than they were previously. Those who prove themselves will do well for us and for themselves. Those who try to cheat will have a much harder time of it, and the incompetent will either shape up or fail.

Bitcoin is not harmed by this event. Mtgox is slain and a lot of individuals are harmed. Bitcoin is strengthened, and the harm done to the poor bastards who lost their coin is not permanent. They made the money in the first place, and if they are competent they will overcome the setback. Doesn't make what Mtgox did right, but it does set a perspective.

Don't harm the blockchain to bail out a bad actor. It killed the dollar, and it will kill bitcoin.

[cdog]

In my opinion people need to take responsibility for their own actions. You deposited with Gox? You lose when they go under.

Anytime I send funds to an exchange, I understand that these are not dollars and are not backed or protected by anything or anyone.

It is a trust arrangement between me and the exchange, and we both serve to benefit from this relationship. But if I lose my coins, thats on me.

It called being a grown up, and not acting like a baby. I feel bad for those who lost on Gox, but its insane to argue they should have their coins restored because of their bad choices.

I made (what now look like) good choices, and didnt put any coins on Gox. If people who lost on Gox had their coins "reissued" that would radically devalue all existing coins and I would probably leave Bitcoin.

[simonk83]

A great series of posts there Biomech, well said.

[porcupine87]

There is no such thing as "fixing private keys".   Private keys are simply random 256 bit numbers.  You either have them or you don't.

If MtGox either
a) doesn't have the private keys for the coins in their wallet
or
b) they have the private keys but the coins have been moved (given to attackers, stolen years ago in prior hacks, embezzled)

there is nothing short of a hard fork to mint new coins for MtGox that anyone can do.

I have a question:
I do understand that private keys are random numbers, but at same point they have to be created on deterministic factors like time etc. So when the private key would be let's say a hash of the "magic_number"+timestamp, then there is a chance to rebuild the private key, if you have the magic number and the timestamp. For the sake of simplicity let's assume the bug is that a letter x got added to the private key. So no private key would work anymore.
-> So in this case there would be a feasible way to compute the private keys.

But I have no idea how MtGox created the private key. Maybe they took something that can't be found like Marc used 500 random characters (just pushed his hands on the keyboard).

So based on what private keys get created in the qt wallet?

The QT client uses the OS level random number generator to generate private keys.  If values of PRNG could be recomputed, then anyone could recompute any other persons private keys.  Bitcoin would fail and so would essentially all other crypto.  PRNG while not truly random are designed to make such recomputation infeasible.  They don't just use a timestamp, they pull data from an entropy pool which is filled with sources like # of disk I/O failures in last x seconds,  random noise from sound card DAC, temperature of processor, the timing (in milliseconds) between keystrokes on the keyboard, the mouse movement data, the latency recorded on IDE calls.

To recompute a PRNG value would require not just the timestamp of the value but recreating the system in the exact same configuration as it was at the time the random value was requested.  This is nearly impossible unless there is some flaw in the PRNG and even then you would need some extensive cryptanalysis and a lot of computing power (i.e may take quadrillions of attempts to recompute the target value).

Of course it is also possible to generate private keys using a true hardware random number generator (quantum random number generator is one example).  For those there is no method, not even theoretical to recompute the generated number.

Ok, this makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.
So then I don't understand how to make a computation feasible.
If I am calculating right, when we use the whole network hashrate for one year we would have only 2^80.

PS: Just to recreate the lost coins with a hard fork would be like a reinventing of the current banking system. So I hope there will be never any significant majority for that.. (but I think this is hiiiighly unlikely)

[zyk]

All exchanges are doing fractional....

just force every exchange to do all deals in the blockchain...thats not going to happen---cause the big fish want to cash out of the ponzi and the bagholders are waning !

Cheers

[porcupine87]

All exchanges are doing fractional....

just force every exchange to do all deals in the blockchain...thats not going to happen---cause the big fish want to cash out of the ponzi and the bagholders are waning !

Cheers

Fractional is tempting. But in that sense Gox was a good thing to happen. Maybe in a few month or a year, exchanges will proof to their customers, that they have 100% reserve. But I think this is only feasible on the basis of btc but not fiat. This would cause a premium on the btc price. hm.

[renee25]

at this point only the second coming of satoshi could bail-out gox.  
and yes, karpeles is a fat liar and deserves to die.

If lucky, someone else will take over gox, give everyone a hair-cut and re-start the exchange.

[jl2012]

...

Many people have withdrawn their money since last June. The red flag was there for months. People staying there were either playing with fire, lazy, or simply ignorant.

Although that might be a good idea to regulate bitcoin exchange, that is irrelevant to the bitcoin as a currency or protocol. You don't need an exchange to spend or receive bitcoin.

Many people believed in bitcoin gox and got badly burnt. If you are suggesting that only sophisticated investors should use bitcoin, so be it.

FTFY. And yes, if one do not have half a brain to understand the difference between gox and bitcoin, they should not invest in it.

[TheFootMan]

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.

I will make a few bulletpoints to clarify my position:

- I don't think MtGox is 'too big to fail'.
- I agree personal responsibility is #1, and I see it's very common in society today for many not to realize this.
- I'm not asking for anyone to 'bail' MtGox out.
- I'm not asking for a blockchain fork or otherwise a technical solution involving the blockchain/bitcoin.

And I'm pretty sure everyone that has been burnt by holding any significant amount of money at MtGox by now pretty well understand that what they did was foolish..

While all your input makes logical sense, how do you expect all people to become sharp and sophisticated? Do we want Bitcoin to become mainstream, or do we want it to be some kind of niche thing?

Most inventions that has become mainstream has been made so that you do not need to know the underlying technology, and you don't need to be sophisticated to use it. Although most people in 'Development & Technical Discussion' at bitcointalk.org probably are rather smart and intelligent, that's not true for the majority of the population. And it never will be.

Sure, education is good, but at what cost? Although I'm leaning to the camp of personal responsibility, and I'm not emotionally involved in MtGox because my losses were negligible (I saw the MtGox demise coming like a boat drifting towards a river fall for a long time - and that's without trying to sound like a smart ass), I don't think those naive enough to invest with MtGox deserves their huge losses.

I am not sure about all the rest of you, technical minded males are not often the ones with the most amount of compassion, but I genuinely feel sorry for those that have their lifes affected to a serious degree. There might be suicides, relations that are ruined, opportunities that will be lost. Cynically if anyone kills themselves over this, or if their relationship shatters to pieces, ultimately they do have themselves to blame. And a cynic could point to someone killing him self for whatever reason that this is only nature cleaning up the gene pool, that person failed and will not bring forward his genes.

It's easy not to care about someone you don't know. They're distant, their lifes doesn't affect you. What if it was your friend, what if it was your spouse, your daughter or your son? Maybe you would've been so involved in their lives already that you advise them in all matters, and help them not make mistakes, and what if there was a major mistake on their part - and you would suffer yourself. Then shit just got real.

I'm not saying that we should have a society where we need to lead everybody by the hand at that all errors should be wiped out without pain, what I'm saying is that we should have a society where those having the knowledge, resources and wisdom to help those less fortunate.

For instance, once there was a small girl coming knocking on the window of our living room. My wife opened the door and wondered what it was all about. This girl was terrified and frozen up. It was icy cold outside. She had originally been on a trip with a horse, the horse had bolted away, and she was confused to as where she was, she had agreed to meet her father at a designated meeting point, but now she was emotionally upset, didn't think clearly, was hungry and tired and desperate.

The cynic could've closed the door and said: Well, people who are not smart enough to take responsibility for their own actions deserve to face the consequences.

Her father did an error for letting her be alone out in the cold weather like that, she might've done an error making the horse get away and so on. There were a whole line of fuckups, but this girl was young and inexperienced, and the father probably didn't think this would happen.. Call them stupid, deserving or whatever..

But we took our car, and drove the girl to the designated meeting point. The father was a total wreck, and there was also a police car there, and they thanked us, and we went home. We did the right thing. We acted in a morally and ethically right way, although we did not have a legal obligation to help that girl. We were simply humans. Humans mostly operates in groups and helps each other.

Now, turning this to Bitcoin. While people need to be aware of their personal responsibilities, a lot of people trust in authority. In the bitcoin world, people who have prominent positions, or make themselves into prominent persons have a larger responsibility than others. If you vouch for a bitcoin business, people will trust you and put their money there.

When the Bitcoin Foundation has MtGox as a gold member, and does not kick them out before far too late, that's also one way to give them credibility and instill trust in normal people, or the sheep, as many would call them.

One could say that every person investing with MtGox is 100% responsible for what they do, and they are. And the fuckup of MtGox's part, be it incompetence, fraud or both is 100% MtGox's responsibility.

In the same breath I think it's the foundations responsibility, and likewise the responsibility of all other known persons in the bitcoin community to not vouch for or to prop up MtGox when they simply don't can't know that they're solvent and running well. At best, when the Bitcoin Foundation does not set up a big warning and kick them out for being Gold Members when problems keep surfacing, and they (Gox) show no sign to improve their act even after repeated requests, negligence is the only word that I can think to come by.

This is not a blame game. It's not The foundations fault that people invested with MtGox, it's not the fault of prominent bitcoin people that customers invested with MtGox, but it is surely the fault of these people embracing MtGox when they KNEW that everything was not well.

A Bitcoin Foundation seeking to protect and promote bitcoin should be on the ball in events like this, ask very hard questions, and be persistent, and demand answers and proof. If this does not happen, then any membership association with the foundation should be removed, and there should be put up a warning about that company.

But perhaps I'm just being naive, and that the foundation is merely a place for business interests to discuss and further their own agenda. But - and this is the truth - although the Foundation is not an entity that has the legal mean of regulating the bitcoin industry, the demise of MtGox also affexts Bitcoin negatively as a whole. A lot of people have now lost their faith in bitcoin, and they will surely tell their friends and complain to everybody that will listen. If this is irresponsible and stupid, that's kind of irrelevant, as it will happen anyway.

So it's important to raise your eyes, and see around you. Although you're isolated speaking a smart, intelligent and sophisticated investor - most people are not and never will be. And thus I stand by "it is the responsibility of those able to help those less fortunate".

I'm sure you all get my point here. While we must cherish and embrace personal responsibility, and instill this in our children and in everyone around us, we should also help people that have ended up in a bad situation. Although a lot of those people are stupid and naive, I'm sure none of them wished to end up in that situation, and I'm sure that a lot of them learn from it and will never end up there again.

So what I thought those at the top of the foodchain in the bitcoin community could do was to establish a task force, and not just offering, but insisting on helping MtGox, and leveraging everything that they could to have MtGox accept this help. I'm not saying they should bail MtGox out. I think the best might as well be to help them clean up the mess as well as possible, and then dissolve MtGox after customers have gotten back as much funds as possible.

Currently, what the sharks and wolfes in this community is doing is to stand next to a train wreck and not helping the crying and injuried people. They're not legally obliged to help, but if they wanted to, they could at least try to the best of their abilities, as it would be in their own interest. And also by not accting, the Bitcoin Foundation is essentially making themselves irrelevant.

As a last word: Words are cheap and easy, and if I really wanted change, I should start some organization myself that did the things that I'm complaining about in this post, but the truth is that any such organization would take a lot of time to get on its feet, and in the case of MtGox - action needs to happen right now.

My thoughts go out to all those sheep, naive and dumb as they are, but still they lost a lot, and does not deserve that loss.

[Luno]

according to this:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z7krg/japanese_newspaper_asahi_shimbun_has_50_billion/cfr8f61

An external consultant is aiding in mapping the theft together with police. I would imagine that it's some one we've heard about before?

[cr1776]

All exchanges are doing fractional....

just force every exchange to do all deals in the blockchain...thats not going to happen---cause the big fish want to cash out of the ponzi and the bagholders are waning !

Cheers

I have yet to see evidence of this either.

If people weren't using an exchange for long-term bitcoin storage, fractional would not be possible.

[Petopas]

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.

I will make a few bulletpoints to clarify my position:

- I don't think MtGox is 'too big to fail'.
- I agree personal responsibility is #1, and I see it's very common in society today for many not to realize this.
...

thanks for your post.
that's one of the most advanced posts I've read about cryptocurrencies so far (and one of the longest as well). being guided by the opposite of the dark triad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad) will ensure the future of bitcoin. that said, the value of bitcoin positively correlates to cohesion of its participants. according to that assumption, the highest self-interest would be to help sort things out at mtgox although not affected at first sight (like myself).

[cr1776]

I think everyone has sympathy for these people, don't confuse discussing something logically with you as having no compassion for them.  Certainly there are plenty of people who just didn't know not to keep bitcoin on an exchange even though it has been stated by many hundreds of times - in fact I know a technically adept guy who had a few bitcoins at Gox because he just didn't get around to moving them.  Stating the fact that if you don't have the private key, you don't own bitcoin, is trying to help to educate people to the benefits of bitcoin. 

It is always best to educate yourself prior to investing, and a lot of people did not investigate Gox enough.  I've been telling people not to use Gox for more than 18 months because they just seemed inept.

Regarding this:

Most inventions that has become mainstream has been made so that you do not need to know the underlying technology, and you don't need to be sophisticated to use it.

This is true, but we aren't there yet.  This is like the internet in 1988.  Some people were using it, but it was not easy to use telnet, ftp, and gopher for the average grandmother.  It wasn't for another 10-15 years - maybe 5-10 years after the web became available - that it became pretty easy to use.  Ease and safety will come.  Things like ardware wallets so you don't think you need to store BTC on an exchange, easy, more reputable exchanges.  (Just think though if the USA hadn't had a $20+ million cost to set up an exchange due to all the rules and regs for almost 50 states (iirc 2 don't need a license), Gox probably would have had better competition years ago and not gotten this far!)

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.
...snip...

[TheFootMan]

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.

I will make a few bulletpoints to clarify my position:

- I don't think MtGox is 'too big to fail'.
- I agree personal responsibility is #1, and I see it's very common in society today for many not to realize this.
...

thanks for your post.
that's one of the most advanced posts I've read about cryptocurrencies so far (and one of the longest as well). being guided by the opposite of the dark triad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad) will ensure the future of bitcoin. that said, the value of bitcoin positively correlates to cohesion of its participants. according to that assumption, the highest self-interest would be to help sort things out at mtgox although not affected at first sight (like myself).

Never heard about 'the dark triad' before, but I read that wiki link and learned something new - and I always enjoy learning something new. So thank you for that. I can agree with your conclusion here as well. Thank you for your post.

I think everyone has sympathy for these people, don't confuse discussing something logically with you as having no compassion for them.  Certainly there are plenty of people who just didn't know not to keep bitcoin on an exchange even though it has been stated by many hundreds of times - in fact I know a technically adept guy who had a few bitcoins at Gox because he just didn't get around to moving them.  Stating the fact that if you don't have the private key, you don't own bitcoin, is trying to help to educate people to the benefits of bitcoin.  

It is always best to educate yourself prior to investing, and a lot of people did not investigate Gox enough.  I've been telling people not to use Gox for more than 18 months because they just seemed inept.

Regarding this:

Most inventions that has become mainstream has been made so that you do not need to know the underlying technology, and you don't need to be sophisticated to use it.

This is true, but we aren't there yet.  This is like the internet in 1988.  Some people were using it, but it was not easy to use telnet, ftp, and gopher for the average grandmother.  It wasn't for another 10-15 years - maybe 5-10 years after the web became available - that it became pretty easy to use.  Ease and safety will come.  Things like ardware wallets so you don't think you need to store BTC on an exchange, easy, more reputable exchanges.  (Just think though if the USA hadn't had a $20+ million cost to set up an exchange due to all the rules and regs for almost 50 states (iirc 2 don't need a license), Gox probably would have had better competition years ago and not gotten this far!)

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.
...snip...

I'm not up to date on the development of hardware wallets, but I agree that will be great when it goes mainstream and is easy to use. Also, I did not want this thread to turn into a thread where we fights out who's right and who aren't. I'm interested in sharing and learning, not to prove something or to claim that I'm always right. The fact that I pointed out compassion as one of the things I think is important does not mean I accuse the rest of you for not having compassion.

From experience in technical fields  I recognize that quite a few people are very detail oriented, and have a problem seeing the entire picture. And males in general are less compassionate than women, which is hardwired into the genes.

I realize most of you are great persons that have thoughts for more than the mere technical side of things, and as one matures, the realization that one's a part of a whole, and everything is interconnected becomes more apparent.

While some teenagers mine in their basement, and do some satoshi dice and don't really care about the impact on society that bitcoin have, I see a lot of the older participants (30+) in the system do have this in mind, and that's why I'm still involved, even if some of the magic was removed when Gavin called the people in this forum a cesspit. I figured this was greater than Gavin, and as such I should not care too much of his comment, although I really had him in high regard before he said that.

I'm merely trying to direct attention to what I believe is the best. This might not be in line with what everyone else think is the best, but in general I do care about other people and their well being, and I believe in being honest, and honor promises and acting ethically. Not saying that I'm a saint or perfect, as nobody ever will be, but I think having a broader view than mere self interest is beneficial, and while it cannot be expected by young people, I think it should most definitely be expected by older people. And a lot of people are doing great things for bitcoin and deserve praise and a clap on the shoulder, but those who are not 'acting in the best interest' for bitcoin should not be allowed to hold important positions, or given too much credit.

While it always can be discussed what's in the best interest for bitcoin  and who's to decide what is, I think that adults are able to look at my message and realize what my point is.

This thread is one of the more constructive threads I've experienced for a while on this forum, and I thank you all for that. I'm frankly tired of all the trolls and silly posts this forum is often riddled with.

Whereas there are indeed some people that qualifies to be a part of the 'cesspit' Gavin talks about, there are also a lot of very non-cesspit people around here. And besides, Gavin is just nothing more than a normal man, and I can imagine it can be really annoying when you really contribute a lot to bitcoin, and then you have all these people contributing virtually nothing and just complaining - but they're still a part of the community and buys bitcoins, purchase goods with bitcoins, trade bitcoins and make it all possible. So the elitist group in the community would be quite lonely if it wasn't for the 'cesspit'. Anyway - that's what was on my mind. Thank you again.

[(A)social]

Don't worry, a Task Force consisting of, erm, diplomatic skilled non-judging experts, is right now directed to Japan to extract the truth (or whatever) from Mark K.