Call for TBF to give a grant to indentify and describe the last goxing mechanism

[Loozik]

Hi TBF,

1. You have been doing a great job of giving grants to promising business ideas, e.g. https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=407 that help achievieng your 3 gols of:
- standardizing Bitcoin,
- protecting Bitcoin,
- promoting Bitcoin.

2. You may have heard Gox is dead. Mark Karpeles claims BTC 750,000 of Gox clients and BTC 100,000 of Gox equity coins are unaccounted for: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/japan-minister-calls-bitcoin-collapse-expected

3. Bitcoin received a lot of promotion because of Gox having gone bust - one of your goals is achieved (promotion). Unfortunately, not the way many of us would like. One of the biggest exchanges going into the red does not help to protect bitcoin. We, the users (ordinary people) do our thing - we keep our computers clean, we use tor, we have computers that will never touch internet again for cold storing. It appears bitcoin exchanges (even your members, like Gox) do not do it.

3. There are numerous theories of what happened and why BTC 850,000 are unaccounted for (there can be a mix of the below):
a) lost private keys
b) theft through malleability bug
c) inside job by Mark himself or his employees
d) giving up the coins due to governmental coersion
e) whatever

4. I want you, the Bitcoin Foundation, to give a grant to scientists (goal: protecting Bitcoin) for the following tasks:
a) identifying reasons for unaccounting BTC 850k at Gox (malleability impact inclusive) and understanding the mechanism of this unaccounting,
b) analysing blockchain and other sources to identify where these coins are at the moment and who has them; BTC 90k may have already been found: http://www.hackingdaily.com/2014/02/mtgox-speculations.html
c) post research conclusions (protecting Bitcoin): what measures should be taken in the future to prevent from goxing / defrauding ordinary people by other exchanges (daily signing messages with exchanges' addresses, monthly financial statements signed by exchanges' CEOs, etc.) - this would help standardizing Bitcoin's environment's key element: exchanges.

5. Come on, how can Bitcoin be protected if exchanges go bankrupt, one after another. Who is next? - a payment processor? - then Bitcoin is dead and no merchant will ever touch it!

6. Please stop giving grants to business undertakings like online wallets and do something that has long-term value.

[TheFootMan]

I have the same opinion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494140.msg5446061

[Loozik]

I have the same opinion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494140.msg5446061

I agree with you. Gaving and other guys (with knowledge and resources) should be on the plane to Tokyo curious to find out about what happened. Isn't science about curiosity? All I can get from the smarty guys are hypothesis on their blogs.

[TheFootMan]

I have the same opinion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494140.msg5446061

I agree with you. Gaving and other guys (with knowledge and resources) should be on the plane to Tokyo curious to find out about what happened. Isn't science about curiosity? All I can get from the smarty guys are hypothesis on their blogs.

Also take into account that Peter Vessenes is on the foundation board, he is the very same dude that sued MtGox for breach of contract for 75million dollars in the coinlab case. It is very likely that he will try block any attempt to help MtGox or at least not actively try to help them.

It's highly likely that he puts his own business interests above the interest of helping normal people, unfortunately.

My impression is that the Foundation mostly looks after big business interests, and does not care so much about the average user.

While there probably is no legal obligation for them to help, from a moral point of view, it would be a very good thing to do, and would bring them a lot of goodwill.

[Loozik]

Also take into account that Peter Vessenes is on the foundation board, he is the very same dude that sued MtGox for breach of contract for 75million dollars in the coinlab case. It is very likely that he will try block any attempt to help MtGox or at least not actively try to help them.

I do not care about big guys' quarrels. I want this thread to only discuss giving (or not) a grant from TBF to scientifically research Gox and goxing (how this happened and where the goxed coins are and who / what addresses have it). There should be some evidence in the blockchain in case coins got stolen, right?

I want science guys (funded with TBF money) to diagnose Gox and draw conclusions for the future (to prevent from goxing).

If any of these science guys can help Gox, in case coins can be made available again, then fine. I have lot of fiat there (I should have written ''had'', because all will be lost due to legal costs).

[zyk]

I have the same opinion:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494140.msg5446061

I agree with you. Gaving and other guys (with knowledge and resources) should be on the plane to Tokyo curious to find out about what happened. Isn't science about curiosity? All I can get from the smarty guys are hypothesis on their blogs.

Also take into account that Peter Vessenes is on the foundation board, he is the very same dude that sued MtGox for breach of contract for 75million dollars in the coinlab case. It is very likely that he will try block any attempt to help MtGox or at least not actively try to help them.

It's highly likely that he puts his own business interests above the interest of helping normal people, unfortunately.

My impression is that the Foundation mostly looks after big business interests, and does not care so much about the average user.

While there probably is no legal obligation for them to help, from a moral point of view, it would be a very good thing to do, and would bring them a lot of goodwill.

You ´ll see that this mighty completly corrupted TBF (The big fail ) if not entirely then  at least a lot of Mark cronies were in on the scam and participated in the cover-

up until now,  as were they selling out at Gox from 980 bucks downward. Nobody will ever get to see the names of those trading accounts and they won´t give a shit

about us  at the bottom of the broken Ponzi !

[Loozik]

Come on guys, we have the dead body of Gox. This body is still warm. This is the best moment to start planning the scientific autopsy.

Noone has resources to fund the autopsy, but TBF. TBF should simply make a call for proposals on how to run such an autopsy and select 1 - 3 best research projects.

Some research can be started very quickly, without the need to fly to Tokyo, through blockchain analysis.

[Armis]

yes the bitcoin foundation who is calling for regulation would be more than happy to find whatever they want to make that happen.

so glad we have TBF for our own protection  



anyone dumb enough to trust mark with btc should not have btc.

And the outside majority community is saying pretty much the same thing about all of us, 'anyone dumb encough to invest in invisible currency with real money should not be trusted with real money


bashing the victim is only normal for bullies

[Armis]

Come on guys, we have the dead body of Gox. This body is still warm. This is the best moment to start planning the scientific autopsy.

Noone has resources to fund the autopsy, but TBF. TBF should simply make a call for proposals on how to run such an autopsy and select 1 - 3 best research projects.

Some research can be started very quickly, without the need to fly to Tokyo, through blockchain analysis.

Sounds like you want a
Crime Scene Investigation, Case #MG744
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492776.new#new

[Loozik]

Sounds like you want a
Crime Scene Investigation, Case #MG744
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492776.new#new

I have a lot of questions about what was going on at Gox. And these questions cannot be answered without Gox's autopsy carried out by experts.

I am this guy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276773.msg2973084#msg2973084 As you can see I know my trade rather well: I pick tops and bottom with ease - I trained my eyes to see tops and bottoms and my brain to predict them (I am not saying there are no better traders, I am just saying I know my trade well, nothing more).

And I knew from the charts more or less what was cooked for BTCUSD on Gox and was sitting there quietly on fiat. I was waiting for the bottom that did not happen, because someone screwed up! Either Gox screwed up or Gox was goxed by a potential investor who did not flashcrash the market on time or yet something else.

Given no communication from Gox staff, only autopsy can tell us what went wrong.

[repentance]

theymos could just as easily spend money for this.  God knows he has funds at his disposal and he doesn't have to worry about pesky things like by-laws.

[Loozik]

theymos could just as easily spend money for this.  God knows he has funds at his disposal and he doesn't have to worry about pesky things like by-laws.

theymos couldn't have helped - not enough money! It looks like what happened at Gox was agreed between the market maker and Gox / forced by the market maker upon Gox (Gox got goxed). Here is a story told from a trader's perspective (this of course does not tell how on earth Gox cannot account for BTC 850k!):

[virtualprofit]

They have not lost only 850k bitcoins but more of that , they have lost(spend) too fiats money of their customers. They used fiats for buy bitcoins to try hide the lost. I think the total amount is around of 1.1 Millions of bitcoin theft in 2011. Search a post about kevin user speak about the big crash and hack of mtgox in 2011. He explain exactly what is happened.

[Loozik]

Revised picture (dates on which coins should have been withdrawn to make a controlled collapse of Gox)



Edit: should be december 2013, not december 2014

[Loozik]

Follow the money  

There was unusually high activity caught by bitcoin days destroyed, which is discussed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=463791.0

The days match:

22 December 2013 - coins withdrawn from Gox (insider) after a cheap buy on 18 December 2013
6 February 2014 - coins reach a new exchange; it is not difficult to gues which one to sell on top / cause a fall in price.

End of story. Now we only need to find out if Gox - whale divorce was the only reason for draining Gox of all BTC 850k that are unaccounted for. Someone brainy is needed who can read and analyse the blockchain.

[Armis]

yes the bitcoin foundation who is calling for regulation would be more than happy to find whatever they want to make that happen.

so glad we have TBF for our own protection  



anyone dumb enough to trust mark with btc should not have btc.

And the outside majority community is saying pretty much the same thing about all of us, 'anyone dumb encough to invest in invisible currency with real money should not be trusted with real money


bashing the victim is only normal for bullies

and if i left a lambo on the mexican boarder with the keys in it and running it would not be my fault if it git stolen.

id the call the govt of mexico and demand an investigation.

any one whi gave their btc for mark to hold really did not care too much about their btc to look at the 10,000 threads telling people not to use gox

so the question is, do you own any btc?  is for you too are opperating in an environment which is riddled with uncertainty, major problems, etc, yada, yada, whodo, ... 
but there's a reason you have chooses to invest in the position, it's because you think you know what you are doing and you trust the players that you have chooses to play with.

If you want the 10,000 reasons to not invest in btc ask 1000 people who don't own btc

[Armis]

theymos could just as easily spend money for this.  God knows he has funds at his disposal and he doesn't have to worry about pesky things like by-laws.

theymos couldn't have helped - not enough money! It looks like what happened at Gox was agreed between the market maker and Gox / forced by the market maker upon Gox (Gox got goxed). Here is a story told from a trader's perspective (this of course does not tell how on earth Gox cannot account for BTC 850k!):

We now know that Gox charting data was very likely inaccurate and more than likely very doctored. 
In other words, only unreliable conclusions can made based on Mt Gox generated info.

[exocytosis]

They have not lost only 850k bitcoins but more of that , they have lost(spend) too fiats money of their customers. They used fiats for buy bitcoins to try hide the lost. I think the total amount is around of 1.1 Millions of bitcoin theft in 2011. Search a post about kevin user speak about the big crash and hack of mtgox in 2011. He explain exactly what is happened.

The problem isn't just that Bitcoin Foundation Gold Member Mark (perhaps in collaboration with others in the Foundation) has "lost" (stolen) enormous amounts of BTC and fiat. The problem is also that Gox actually accepted and encouraged fiat- and BTC deposits right until the moment when the site suddenly went dark. Actually, I'm sure they still accept such deposits.

And the Bitcoin Foundation, for some mysterious reason, seems unwilling to research what happened. Or make an official statement, for that matter.

[repentance]

theymos could just as easily spend money for this.  God knows he has funds at his disposal and he doesn't have to worry about pesky things like by-laws.

theymos couldn't have helped - not enough money! It looks like what happened at Gox was agreed between the market maker and Gox / forced by the market maker upon Gox (Gox got goxed). Here is a story told from a trader's perspective (this of course does not tell how on earth Gox cannot account for BTC 850k!):

I was saying that theymos has enough funds at his disposal to pay for someone to investigate the MtGox collapse (something you're asking Bitcon Foundation to do).

As far as TA goes, you might as well cast runes so I doubt you're going to convince anyone to part with funds based on your charts.

[Loozik]

We now know that Gox charting data was very likely inaccurate and more than likely very doctored. 

Gox data have been very accurate; the best among all other exchanges. Bitstamp couldn't even dream of comparing to Gox in terms of data quality.

When you follow the money, you'll know:
- malleability issue is just an excuse
- government intervention is just nutcases telling silly stories
- losing privkeys is an excuse / is fake
- acquiring Gox was just a smokescreen
- recovery plan was just a smokescreen
- businessplan was just a smokescreen

The money went to ... trust me it's not difficult to guess - there is only one option where it could (at least partially) go. it is a known person / organization.

And I am gonna have fun watching people telling stories of how Karpeles could lose privkeys while drinking his frappucino, how US gov could break into his office and steal a paper wallet, how a loss of BTC 850k was discovered out of the blue, and so on