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Author Topic: mtgox requires physical identification  (Read 9652 times)
ArsenShnurkov
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October 22, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
 #1

When I tried to move 5 BTC out of mtgox (to glbse) mtgox says me:

"Your account is currently pending review, please visit https://mtgox.com/forms/verification"

and on that page there is only one option - to reveal physical identity (no way to go without this).

I expect that for sums below 100 BTC one can withdraw "anonymously".

Earlier I asked them to increase withdrawal limit, but after they requested my ID,
I decide not to give ID to mtgox -> japanese government -> american government.
This is why I decline their offer of yubikey delivery (delivery requires physical address).
And they already did "password recovery" after their hack.
I had a strong password which was used only on their site exclusively.
The hack was their fault, not mine. But they forced me to give some my details that time.
(By mail request of 2011 June 24)

They seems to be very intrusive in attempts to get personal details (under the name of "my protection")...
Identification is not a problem for me, but it destroys one of major bitcoin ideas.

The problem of course, that i have much more money in mtgox account.

UPD: they replied to this topic (in support.mtgox.com site):
Quote
   Hello,

    Thank you for contacting us. In response to increased incidence of phishing and hacking attempts made against Mt.Gox and its users, stricter security precautions have been implemented to protect our users and their funds. Should suspicious activity be detected in relation to an Mt.Gox account, the ability to withdraw funds will be temporarily suspended until it can be confirmed that the owner of the account is in fact still in control. Please login onto the Mt.Gox page and visit https://www.mtgox.com/forms/verification to start the identification process.

    Thanks,

    MtGox.com Team

Oct-23 2011 11:53
They have absolutely no reasons to suspect my in "suspicious activity".
I bought my bitcoins in february in small amounts on another exchange (I have it in wallet history).
I move my funds to mtgox site after changing password after hacking
My new password is strong an used ony on their site.
Funds was moved to this address:
http://blockexplorer.com/address/145bLBbsT97TibMR8N6H1Y7noYm26rhJDQ
By this two transactions:
http://blockexplorer.com/tx/cfe67cb91fa872da251f542ce29d445789773e79663e40c217a861ab1aab7e74#o1
http://blockexplorer.com/tx/674c9b7f2e7a8f7a35bde8a5c408a5ba8e5009d4ad7644f148dcdeaf1dc3f08c#o0
(both 2011-Sept-06)
I have very long history of posts in the forum.
I tested withdrawal earlier with a sum of 10 BTC, but shocked that I can't withdraw now.

The sums they locked:


I can't provide identity of myself other then
static IP addresses (which they already have confirmed in June, before money was moved in October)
and wallet private keys...

Earlier mtgox said:
Quote
I don't enjoy just blocking random people's accounts. I wouldn't do it unless there really was no other option.
I want to hear reason.

My proposition: I still own wallets and addresses, which I used to transfer funds in.
I can use the old address to receive BTC, which i use to send BTC to mtgox.

UPD2: After I submit my documents, both my requests was closed with comments:
Quote
Request #13973
    Hello,
    We apologize, but we can only verify users after valid documents are submitted.
    We will be closing this ticket now, but feel free to contact us if you need assistance with applying for a verified status.
    Thanks,
    MtGox.com Team
Oct-23 2011 21:24

Quote
Request #14000
    This ticket was closed and merged into ticket #13973 "Please remove "reviewing" status...".
    Comment during merge: Hello,
Oct-23 2011 21:44 (Merge into ticket #13973)
Now I am waiting for 5 business days for document checking, as written in the site.

UPD3:
I gave him international passport, which have translations to english (within the document itself).
and domestic bill (as they requested).
Of course the bill was in domestic language.

I received (2011-Oct-24) an email:
Quote
We regret to inform you that the identification documentation you have submitted has been reviewed, and your request has been temporarily denied.
Reasons(s)
Submitted documentation must be in English or Latin script, and legible. Where documents are not in Latin script, they must be translated and a notarised copy provided.
We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, but it would be greatly appreciated if you resubmit the requested clarification(s) above.
Otherwise, if you would like to make further enquiries in relation to this, please do not hesitate to contact Mt.Gox Support.

UPD4:
I upload notarized translations (that cost me ~30 BTC equivalent as a reward to the translator and notarius) and reopen ticket.
Ticket was closed with comment:
Quote
Unfortunately, we are not the AML team. Please contact aml@mtgox.com if you have questions about getting your account reviewed.
Thanks,
MtGox.com Team
Oct-26 2011 10:44
I wrote a letter to that email address.
Start waiting for five days.
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October 22, 2011, 10:52:56 PM
 #2

I hear this more and more and it makes me nervous.

If you have to take people's private information you do it upfront. It is BS to take money and hold it ransom. They know it costs them customers that's why the obtrusive requests come afterwards.

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October 23, 2011, 06:01:30 AM
 #3

I'm not so worried when mtgox decided to act like a traditional financial institution, which will collect the identity information of the people.

Bitcoin is money, if mtgox want to act like an serious bitcoin financial institution, some traditional best practice is in the best interest of mtgox and the bitcoin economy.

However, this will not danger the bitcoin ideology, you can always spend and transfer bitcoin anonymously.

This somehow like the gun things in America. The people is free to hold guns, so that ppl is able to fight with the government when the gov becomes evil. but ppl are not shoot at gov everyday.

we can spend bitcoin in a P2P way, and hide our identity from everyone in the world. But we don't have to do this all the time. and mtgox is just giving us the other choice, where mtgox may need some of our identity information.

give the ID information or not, use mtgox or not, it's your call. but some ppl will like to trust mtgox, to got some convenience. just like ppl are free to give information to facebook and google. like it or not, most ppl do it this way.

so don't judge, you can warn ppl the risk in trust such elephant, but mtgox does nothing that wrong.

 If you want to spend bitcoin anonymously, fine, then don't try to convert it into USD on the mtgox, just spend it.

If you like to hide all the trace of your bitcoin, you'd better stock some bitcoin for emergence  use, donot think in when-need-bitcoin-I-will-just-buy-it-then way. Yes, you'd better "hoard" some on your personal wallet or you have to leak you personal information to mtgox.

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bitleaker
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October 23, 2011, 06:07:18 AM
 #4

The 'Magic: The Gathering Online Exchange'  is acting more and more like Paypal these days. People have been reporting about this for months, so you can't say that you weren't warned. I hope that you can get access to your money, but I fear that without full disclosure, your funds will be sucked into the Mark Karpeles' legal slush-fund.
ArsenShnurkov
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October 23, 2011, 06:43:10 AM
 #5

mtgox does nothing that wrong.

It brokes his earlier promises.

Just as example,
also I asked them about the possibility to transfer rubles - they said "yes" then "no":
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48140.0
I was forced to convert money twice - from USD to RUR and from RUR after that.
They get the comission and don't return it (wrong advice was their fault, not mine).


If you want to spend bitcoin anonymously, fine, then don't try to convert it into USD on the mtgox, just spend it

I don't want to withdraw USD, I want to withdraw BTC.
How will I prove my identity with photo and home address, if it is completely unrelated to my nickname?
Should I provide notarial signs on all the screenshots of my internet provider accounts?
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October 23, 2011, 06:53:50 AM
 #6

Can't you just cancel and get back your money without those hassles?
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October 23, 2011, 06:59:49 AM
 #7

The 'Magic: The Gathering Online Exchange'  is acting more and more like Paypal these days.

And the bigger it gets and the more markets it expands into, the more it's going to have to comply with all sorts of financial services regulations and AML/CTF/KYC laws.  This might piss people off, but they get more pissed off when they can't get their funds because Mt Gox accounts are frozen due to suspicious activity.  If the exchanges don't comply with AML requirements, everyone's money which is held in their accounts is at risk of being frozen.  

It's amazing that Mt Gox managed to operate for so long before this became an issue really.  I expect that all the exchanges hoped they'd be able to fly under the radar for quite a bit longer.  It takes considerable staff time and therefore costs money to verify accounts to comply with AML requirements and I'm sure the exchanges would rather not be bearing those costs during their start-up period.

The time has probably come where all of the exchanges need to have user agreements which clearly state that their customers may be required to verify their accounts and/or their identity at any time and that if they fail to do so their funds will not be released.  The problem is that people rarely read complex user agreements such as those of PayPal and Technocash until access to their funds has been blocked.  Even if the exchanges do have complex, multi-page user agreements I suspect that people are still going to bitch when the terms of those agreements are enforced.

I'm not sure about elsewhere in the world, but I know that here when a customer refuses to verify their account and/or identity to a business like PayPal or another financial service provider, the funds in their account must be transferred to one of the government unclaimed money funds after a certain period of time.  

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
bitleaker
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October 23, 2011, 07:10:28 AM
 #8

Don't get me wrong, I understand why MtGox are doing this, but I think that they could be more open and up-front about having to do it from the offset, and allow people to remove their money anonymously if they stay within the agreed limits ($10k per month). They also need to pull their finger out and have faster response times to people's issues.

I've heard of so many people who have been well within MtGox's limits having their accounts frozen. Everything about this goes against what bitcoins stand for imho.
ArsenShnurkov
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October 23, 2011, 08:13:10 AM
 #9

I sent them the documents.

Everything about this goes against what bitcoins stand for imho.

That is exactly my point.
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October 23, 2011, 09:11:29 AM
 #10

Don't get me wrong, I understand why MtGox are doing this, but I think that they could be more open and up-front about having to do it from the offset, and allow people to remove their money anonymously if they stay within the agreed limits ($10k per month). They also need to pull their finger out and have faster response times to people's issues.

I've heard of so many people who have been well within MtGox's limits having their accounts frozen. Everything about this goes against what bitcoins stand for imho.

My perception is that they were genuinely naive and thought that if they set a $1000 per day/$10,000 per month withdrawal limit then that would somehow exempt them from having to comply with AML/KYC and various other financial services laws in the countries in which they operate.  Quite a  few times people questioned that logic and got vague answers about how those rules couldn't be applied to their operations because...Bitcoins.

Although it was before my time on these boards, from what I've read about how Mt Gox operated prior to being taken over by Mark the withdrawal limits used to be lower and the time period to withdraw much longer - which probably reflected the relatively low volume and small cashflow which the exchanges had prior to the surge in Bitcoin prices.

In many jurisdictions it is going to be illegal for them to allow customers to remove their money anonymously.  Just because withdrawals are below the threshold amount which requires that the transaction must be reported to the financial tracking organisation in a particular country, doesn't mean that financial services providers aren't required to know the identities of customers making transactions below that threshold.

I do utterly agree that their customer service stinks.  They need to be proactive about getting information to their users rather than simply putting announcements about issues on their websites and relying on others to repost it in the forums - especially when those issues affect people being able to access their funds.  Far too often, they've even delayed putting announcements on their website for days after people have been complaining here about not being able to withdraw through dwolla/paxum/SEPA/whatever when they clearly knew that there was an issue.  And often when they've finally deigned to respond on the forums, their answers have been formulaic, robotic, and given no more information than was already on their website. 

I get that they're probably stretched to the limit in terms of staff resources right now, but being stonewalled isn't reassuring to their customers.  They're quick enough to come here and post when they want to announce something which they think will bring them more business, but pitifully slow at making an appearance when something goes wrong.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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October 23, 2011, 09:23:32 AM
 #11

I'm not sure about elsewhere in the world, but I know that here

where is 'here'?
worldinacoin
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October 23, 2011, 09:29:38 AM
 #12

Maybe the OP can check the TOS of Mtgox asking them to point out the clauses that need him to supply the identifications?
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October 23, 2011, 09:36:29 AM
 #13

I'm not sure about elsewhere in the world, but I know that here

where is 'here'?


Australia.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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October 23, 2011, 09:38:50 AM
 #14

mtgox are fair to ask for id. But it is completely evil to let people deposit money thinking they have anonimity. Spread it on the forums, edit a note whereever you see gox - using this exchange removes privacy due to withdrawal limits that vary as limitless as exchange rates.

Let this be a lesson to everyone. And a lesson for me, i thank you for the warning, especially on gov fund siezures.

I lost almost all my life savings years ago when the gov froze a fund. The court case has been going on for years and by the time i get the funds unfrozen i expect the printing press would have decimated my savings. This can happen with mtgox and any other exchange so LET THAT BE A LESSON  to spread eggs to many baskets.

 And trust your instinct too;  before it happened i started to withdraw even though i no idea what was spooking me. If i had converted to bitcoin back then i'd be drinking a barcadi and coke in the carribean by now!
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October 23, 2011, 09:49:37 AM
 #15

I'm not sure about elsewhere in the world, but I know that here

where is 'here'?


Australia.

In "here" you really can't do much Sad , that's why I am extremely supportive of oz.in, certainly isn't easy, just the cost of doing biz will be a killer.
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October 23, 2011, 10:04:11 AM
 #16

I'm not sure about elsewhere in the world, but I know that here

where is 'here'?


Australia.

In "here" you really can't do much Sad , that's why I am extremely supportive of oz.in, certainly isn't easy, just the cost of doing biz will be a killer.

do you mean https://ozco.in ?
ArsenShnurkov
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October 23, 2011, 01:36:22 PM
 #17

After I submit my documents, both my requests was closed with comments:
Quote
Request #13973
    Hello,
    We apologize, but we can only verify users after valid documents are submitted.
    We will be closing this ticket now, but feel free to contact us if you need assistance with applying for a verified status.
    Thanks,
    MtGox.com Team
Oct-23 2011 21:24

Quote
Request #14000
    This ticket was closed and merged into ticket #13973 "Please remove "reviewing" status...".
    Comment during merge: Hello,
Oct-23 2011 21:44 (Merge into ticket #13973)
Now I am waiting 5 business days for document checking, as written in the site.
EhVedadoOAnonimato
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October 23, 2011, 03:46:40 PM
 #18

I hear this more and more and it makes me nervous.

If you have to take people's private information you do it upfront. It is BS to take money and hold it ransom.

+1
And it's not just BS, it's theft.
bitleaker
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October 23, 2011, 06:56:03 PM
 #19

I hear this more and more and it makes me nervous.

If you have to take people's private information you do it upfront. It is BS to take money and hold it ransom.

+1
And it's not just BS, it's theft.
+1
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October 23, 2011, 09:07:11 PM
 #20

I hear this more and more and it makes me nervous.

If you have to take people's private information you do it upfront. It is BS to take money and hold it ransom.

+1
And it's not just BS, it's theft.
+1

I really don't think that is too strong a word at all.

I've been recommending them in the past, but won't any more and I won't keep a balance on there for convenience like a used to.

Magical Tux other service Kaly Host has also turned to garbage. I've been avoiding saying it publicly because they've been good in the past. But it's been almost 3 months with no response from support for my account and for the account of a friend who I refereed there. It is bad to the point where he owes money imo.


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