Governments and Bitcoin

[sortedmush]

Question for eMansipator.

Do you advocate the use of violence against me, for refusing to fund violence against you?

[kiba]

When disruptive technologies...things tend to be...disruptive.

[ryepdx]

Nice try.

But let's wait and see what happens when BitCoin takes off. Do you really think government will welcome it with open arms?

Depends on the rhetoric swirling around in the bitcoin community at the time. It's possible that we could sell governments on the idea if we undertook to do so. Though bitcoins are a cash analogue, they are ultimately more trackable due to the existence of the blockchain. If a government were to get ahold of a mapping of addresses to identities, calculating tax owed by an individual from bitcoin activity would be as simple as mining the blockchain for data. If a country moved to using bitcoins exclusively as legal tender, they could feasibly replace most of their tax departments with a computer program.

At that point I would stop using bitcoin and I'm sure many others would too.

The beauty of bitcoins is that a comprehensive mapping could never be had. Just as I could open a foreign account and hide my riches, or else deal only in cash, I could also keep myself off the mapping by starting a new bitcoin address, or several bitcoin addresses, or even simply never reporting in for the mapping. Or else simply associating my identity with an address I never intend to use.

The beauty of bitcoins is that any such mapping would have to be voluntary. It could be a useful tool for those who want to pay their taxes in a much simpler way than can presently be had. But the government would have a hell of a time forcing anyone into the map who doesn't want to be there.

[nster]

auto-tax per transaction + tax when receiving payment from employer + tax to buy from an approved retailer seems quite easy

[ryepdx]

Yeah, yeah, we've all heard this "go along to get along" BS all our life, it's not like it is anything new.

The next thing you know you'll be advocating for a new gubmint agency to have oversight powers of the bitcoin OSS development standards, wouldn't that just be boon for all you mainstreamists, it would be the ultimate stamp of approval for those that need "official" affirmation before taking a pee ... then what?, back to square one, vested interests co-opting the agency that has the reins of power, you could make your bitcoin agency a branch of fed. res., is that 'official' enough for ya?

At some point you've got to show some spine and say which side you are on. If you go along to get along you are putting your stamp of approval on everything the State does in your name, the blood is on your hands. The crimes are too great and obvious now, you can no longer just pay your taxes and close your eyes, their sins are your sins once you have knowledge and acquiesce. Politics and money are intertwined, no third way sorry ... free money or socialist crimes against humanity?

All I'm saying is that it's a lot easier to sell people an idea bit by bit than it is to try cramming it down their throats wholesale. Most progress is made inch by inch and step by step, not in some "great leap forward."

Edit:

Keeping BitCoin above politics means not trying to slant it in the other direction either.  Bitcoin is what bitcoin is, and it is ingenious.  All we have to do is not ruin it through either technical distortion or socio-idealogical hobbling.  Bitcoin isn't a philosophy like statism or anarchism, it's a technology like HTML or BitTorrent.  Don't mess with the core protocol, don't scare off future enthusiasts, and we're good to go whatever your reason for wanting it to succeed.

Once again, eMansipater takes the words right out of my mouth.

[Anonymous]

Paying tax is a self incriminating process. Bitcoin makes that choice obvious since the government will have no choice but to believe you. How about instead of us begging the government the government begs us for a change ?

They might actually listen then the way the propaganda tells us they do.


Tread your own path.

[deadlizard]

Paying tax is a self incriminating process.

most people have never paid tax, it's gone before you get your hands on it.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Most progress is made inch by inch and step by step, not in some "great leap forward."

Wrong.

Most progress IS made by great leaps forward ... the inch by inch stuff is just a story for the masses that there is "progress". More mainstream, socialist pablum. But that's fine, stick to your fairy tales and let the individualist, free thinkers sort our your money problems, but there will be a fee involved.

[eMansipater]

I'm afraid all this anarchy vs non-anarchy stuff is way off topic.  My original post is essentially saying that if an alien scientist peers down onto our planet it's going to mark in its notebook

Code:

diverse community --> bitcoin technology proliferates within earthian intertubes
community restricted to anarchists and libertarians --> bitcoin technology fails to proliferate
people in bitcoin community rant on and on about being at war with the state --> state calls them domestic terrorists

all while making little yoda sounds under its breath.  It's not a philosophical treatise.  It's just an experienced attempt to estimate which events lead to other events, including which events do or do not lead to government opposition, pointing out that it's not inherent.  If you want to argue that all non-anarchists are violent repressors you can do it in off-topic and I might even reply to you.  But this really has shit to do with the bitcoin protocol.  I'm sorry to put it that bluntly.  Start a new thread there, copy-paste your posts, and I'll be happy to elaborate.

Keeping the bitcoin protocol different than whether or not we all agree philosophically is kinda my whole point here.  There's no "go along to get along" because I'm not telling you what to do.  I'm just talking tangible consequences here.  You can not care about them, but to pretend they don't exist is just plain naive and I'm telling you straight up that techie, intelligent people who want to use bitcoin will not use it if it's this whole packaged worldview rather than just tech.  Count myself among them.  Convincing me to use BitCoin and convincing me to be an anarchist are two very different battles.  And I'm not alone.

[ryepdx]

Most progress is made inch by inch and step by step, not in some "great leap forward."

Wrong.

Most progress IS made by great leaps forward ... the inch by inch stuff is just a story for the masses that there is "progress". More mainstream, socialist pablum. But that's fine, stick to your fairy tales and let the individualist, free thinkers sort our your money problems, but there will be a fee involved.

I guess I should define "inch by inch" v.s. "great leap forward." Electing a black man President of the United States in the 1950s would have been a "great leap forward." There was still a lot of ground to be covered by the civil rights movement before that happened. All of it, from desegregation to campaigns against racism, had to happen before there could be a black President of the United States.

[kiba]

Disruptive technologies are the kind of technologies that can't be stopped by simple idealogy and simple crushing. Sooner or later, the effect of such technologies will realized and all those Luddites will have to face reality.

[ryepdx]

Disruptive technologies are the kind of technologies that can't be stopped by simple idealogy and simple crushing. Sooner or later, the effect of such technologies will realized and all those Luddites will have to face reality.

+1

[marcus_of_augustus]

But one thing's for certain--if we turn bitcoin (or even the community surrounding it) into a destroy-all-governments, end-of-all-fiat-money, never-pay-taxes-again conspiracy, it will end up on the terrorist watch list before the first report even hits the desk.

We can't "turn" bitcoin into anything, you may spin it as you wish. But you do not seem to understand the nature of money, fiat money, historic gold standard politics, hard money versus an out-of-control government (your friends).

When hard money comes back they will cease to exist in the most part because they no longer have to the power to expand uncontrollably without tax-payer say-so. They will hate bitcoin inherently no matter how you spin it. If you can convince them that bitcoin is good for govt., go ahead, it will be the greatest trojan horse attack in history.

Communism learnt the hard way that the free market for capital will not be denied, so will the soft-commie socialists currently infesting western mainstream politics. It will destroy them, whether you like it or not. Do you think all the turmoil in the West with the massive deficits, debts, political unrest is unrelated to the financial crises in capital markets? The great fiat money experiment is unravelling. I think the best favour you can do for your friends in govt. is to tell them to brush up on their skill-sets so they can find real jobs that produce stuff after the collapse of the fiat-money driven socialist orgy we are living through.

I wish you well, work bitcoin into govt. thinking but it is like asking turkeys to vote for thanksgiving.

[river]

I agree with moa for the most part.

Besides, most people in Common Law Rule nations are to stupid (brain washed) to know or WANT to know that paying tax is a CRIME by constitutional rule (ie: common law rule).  Every person has the right, not privilege, but RIGHT to earn a living (ie: business) without interference from the Government.

This only reason ANYONE has EVERY paid taxes threw out recorded (or unrecorded) history is because some tyranical, warlord, murdering psycho with a gun tells them to 'pay or their family dies with them' ... these are the same people that tell you "give up ALL your rights and privileges and means of SECURITY and we will protect you .. but if you keep any of your rights, privileges and means of SECURITY we will kill you .... seeeee, we care!"  ... there has never been a worse crime against ALL humanity than taxes or the central banks that criminally created them.

You don't have to be a hater, lover, or Pizza eater to know that bitcoin and other p2p systems ie: p2pdns are designed to give people back power over their own lives.

Heck, if you don't want control over yourself, give it up, the choice  is always yours and I will support your choice ... but don't try to take mine .. or I will take yours .. and you won't like it either!

[JA37]

This only reason ANYONE has EVERY paid taxes threw out recorded (or unrecorded) history is because some tyranical, warlord, murdering psycho with a gun tells them to 'pay or their family dies with them' ... these are the same people that tell you "give up ALL your rights and privileges and means of SECURITY and we will protect you .. but if you keep any of your rights, privileges and means of SECURITY we will kill you .... seeeee, we care!"  ... there has never been a worse crime against ALL humanity than taxes or the central banks that criminally created them.

Dear lord, you really lay it on thick don't you?

[fetokun]

Besides, most people in Common Law Rule nations are to stupid (brain washed) to know or WANT to know that paying tax is a CRIME by constitutional rule (ie: common law rule).  Every person has the right, not privilege, but RIGHT to earn a living (ie: business) without interference from the Government.

That's the kind of exaggeration that the author of this topic was referring to!
I agree that governments all over the world are incredibly oversized.

But if you live in one of these nations and you benefit from the tax-payed services provided by the greedy government (even if they are crappy), it's not right just refusing to pay your share saying everything is unconstitutional or a crime.

[river]

perhaps thick .. but thousands of years of history shows that central "authorities" can never be trusted. (and I use the term "authorities" loosely since we are the ones that put them there and we are supposed to be their bosses .. hence we are the authorities)

They have always taken what they want at gun point .. this is a historical fact .. so yes .. maybe thick .. but maybe not thick enough

Take Canada for example .. the Supreme Corrupt Courts of Canada recently ruled that Canadian citizens do NOT have the right to bear arms for security.  This is of course being enforced by Canadian citizens (COPS) with GUNS???  Do we see a corrupt conflict of tyrannical interest here?

So the people with the GUNS are telling everyone else that they are not allow to have guns !!??  Now, whether you believe in firearms or not is not the point, but the RIGHT to security is a fundamental right of every citizen.  I have had a home invasion before and the "central authorities" did everything they could to arrest and imprison ME for the crime.

You call the cops when you and your family get attacked, and assuming they don't arrest YOU to get arrest count up, they will generally show up just in time to draw the chalk lines.

Do we see tyrannical, corrupt, central authorities here .. I think soooo !!!

Peer-to-peer systems that both, cannot be monitored by the "central authorities", and take the power away from "central authorities" and put it back in the hands of the people where it belongs .. are the only way to go.

Did you know for example .. that in the U.S.A. 100% of  INCOME TAX (that mean all of it) goes ONLY to the interest on the loans from the global central banks ... not one penny of it goes the Nation itself.    Their war budget just happens to be EXACTLY the same as the corporate tax they generate .. and local communities STILL pay for ALL their community functions (like schools) from LOCAL taxes on the services used ... road are maintained from costs at the pump ... and so on ...

So NO ... there is NO exaggeration here .. this is all technical facts from history and government records.

[marcus_of_augustus]

But if you live in one of these nations and you benefit from the tax-payed services provided by the greedy government (even if they are crappy), it's not right just refusing to pay your share saying everything is unconstitutional or a crime.

What if you don't benefit? What if it is always a net loss in your dealings with the state? You are only ever paying into the system and getting screwed by big guys and never getting anything tangible out of it except contributing to a net harming of humanity?

What are your options then? If you don't pay they put you in jail, is that not a threat of violence?

What if it really is a crime what they are doing? What is 'right' at that point?

[em3rgentOrdr]

I suggest eMansipater and friends fork the bitcoin client code to automatically send a percentage of each transaction to the government.

Disruptive technologies are the kind of technologies that can't be stopped by simple idealogy and simple crushing. Sooner or later, the effect of such technologies will realized and all those Luddites will have to face reality.

+1. 

Yes.  Indeed, I have come to realize that market-anarchism is inevitable.  Thanks to disruptive technologies such as the internet, cryptography, and bitcoin, it is only a matter of time.  The seeds have been sown.  The next evolution of human society has begun.

[fetokun]

But if you live in one of these nations and you benefit from the tax-payed services provided by the greedy government (even if they are crappy), it's not right just refusing to pay your share saying everything is unconstitutional or a crime.

What if you don't benefit? What if it is always a net loss in your dealings with the state? You are only ever paying into the system and getting screwed by big guys and never getting anything tangible out of it except contributing to a net harming of humanity?

What are your options then? If you don't pay they put you in jail, is that not a threat of violence?

What if it really is a crime what they are doing? What is 'right' at that point?

I really don't know.
In anyway I look at these questions I get to the same question: what could you do when the main public just doesn't care enough? I have no answer.