A simple proof that Bitcoin has zero value

[halfmil]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

[1714792482]

1714792482

[killat]

On that principle all the money is essentially "zero value". Crypto, old school dollars whatever.

None of it is real because it is based on nothing of substance. Gold is locked away in the US vaults never to come out and is not big enough to back everyone's money. The Britsh Pound? Equated to one pound of gold once.

Now if you ask for your gold back from The USA you get invaded and deposed ... Gradafi, Sadam etc.

So, just because Bitcoin is a bit flimsy? It matter not.

As long as people honour it's value through services good etc ... Who cares?

Now, if they stop hooping it? That is a different story.

[letecia012]

I dis agree what the thread starter want to emphasize the three first example is way different from the fourth or the Bitcoin. As the first three represent physical ownership of things or items while Bitcoin is a digital currency and it only exist in internet world. The value could be created by people who patronizing an item or a coins and that is the law  of demand and supply. While there are lot of buyer than seller of Bitcoin it's price may continue to go up or vice versa.

[fxsurfer]

There is no proof for the bitcoin and it is impossible that we should judge the crypto and bitcoin is not a value less currency and if some one make an observation that will be just illusion not not fact that shows actual value of bitcoin.

Will bitcoin today has a value and I think it will never fall into zero value, because it has now an amazing price, if we are in dip today maybe tommorow or in the next months or year we are on pump status crypto is unstable. So there is a posibility to rise or maybe fall depending on the volume of investors on the feild.

Bitcoin never had, nor ever will have value. What you see on the exchanges is not value but letters and numbers, something like this: BTC/USD 6,352.02. Value of bitcoin has always been zero, i.e. numbers that you see are not quantifiers of value but marks of events where people give their possessions for free. In the legitimate market, like EUR/USD for e.g., number 1.1700 quantifies the value of claims derived from loan created money in the US in terms of claims derived from loan created money in the EU. So, we have ratio between two things (claims) with value of their own and number is only expression of that ratio. But in the case of BTC/USD, number 6,325.02 does not represent ratio between two values, since bitcoin is a number and numbers cannot have value on their own. For that reason 6,325.02 is nothing but a numerical mark of the fact that currently, people are willing to throw away 6,325.02 US dollars for the alteration of worthless number in publicly distributed database. And this is stupidity on a scale never seen in human history.

Your understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.
USD is not "loan created money". FED has not borrowed money from aliens or Illuminati to loan it forward to business banks. It printed it - created it from thin air. And the EUR/USD is not a ratio between "claims" to loans in respective currencies. That ratio is derived absolutely and only from supply and demand of each currency for another. The same goes for BTC/USD.

You haven't defined a term "value", as interpretations I think are clashing. In your case it definitely isn't a thing of supply and demand - like in neoliberal capitalism.

Does Ethereum as a network have value? If not, does Uber or Airbnb or Reddit have value and why?

Well, you have just demonstrated that it is you whose understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.

First, FED doesn't create money. FED creates paper proof or certificate of money. Banks on the other hand create digital proof or certificate of money. So neither the FED nor the banks create money. Money is essentially created by borrowers, i.e. without the borrowers there would be no money, except commodity money - whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made.

In other words, when a bank creates numbers out of thin air by giving someone a loan, the bank didn't create money, but worthless symbols. Only when the borrower takes liability to return the loan and when this liability is secured by some form of collateral, only then "numbers" are put into circulation and only then money (fiat money) is created.
When FED (FOMC) buys government securities then the government is the borrower that takes "liability to return the loan". And this loan is secured by taxing power of the government.

Now, does that look like bitcoin to you?

Second, supply is a concept that describes the total amount of a specific good or service that is available to consumers, while demand is a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, the supply and demand for a good vary, while value of a good is stable irrespective of these two concepts. For e.g. usability and other properties of iPhone won't change if you are not willing to buy it. Thus, value is something that is inherent to a thing and what doesn't change with supply and demand. Price is what changes in that regard.  

[fxsurfer]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

[dohh]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

You are the poorly educated one. Instead of admitting, that Your initial logic was faulted, You keep digging Yourself deeper in, with even more broken logic. I wonder, how much more of it can You produce...

Just to use Your own words: if value is "a things ability to provide some utility." its is subjective already by Your own definition. Pair of classes wear good value for shortsighted, I dont give a shite. They are not valuable for me. Insulin pump has lifesaving value for diabetic, no value at all to me.

And Your own engine/value sample: some people value more powerful engines, some economic. Even this ability is not valued identically between individuals. How can You be, to not understand that??

[fxsurfer]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

You are the poorly educated one. Instead of admitting, that Your initial logic was faulted, You keep digging Yourself deeper in, with even more broken logic. I wonder, how much more of it can You produce...

Just to use Your own words: if value is "a things ability to provide some utility." its is subjective already by Your own definition. Pair of classes wear good value for shortsighted, I dont give a shite. They are not valuable for me. Insulin pump has lifesaving value for diabetic, no value at all to me.

And Your own engine/value sample: some people value more powerful engines, some economic. Even this ability is not valued identically between individuals. How can You be, to not understand that??

This is not value of a thing, but your personal need or willingness to use it. By your logic insulin is valueless because you don't need it. Glasses are valueless because you are not shortsighted. Some people don't use cars. So, cars are valueless. Your logic is obviously nonsensical. Utility or value of a thing is not defined by personal preferences of people but by its ability to either, perform function for which it was designed or satisfy human wants or needs. In that sense only bitcoin is entirely valueless. It is just a byte in a memory and as such it can neither perform some function nor satisfy human wants or needs.

[halfmil]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

Don't hurt your mind to much thinking about it. What is really amusing to me is that even though elitist like you have wasted a lot of their life learning facts in higher education they still need poorly educated people like me to school you on what value is.

If "the value of a thing is it's ability to provide some utility" and value is not subjective please tell me what makes a painting or artwork valuable. Why is some art worth nothing and some paintings are worth a million dollars?

Do you really think everyone on this planet values their heart exactly the same even as a utility? There are people on this earth that have some serious problems and are in traumatic consent pain they can only pray and hope that their heart gives out so they may die because that's what they want.

Is an engines sole purpose to convert energy into mechanical energy? Are there not old steam, airplane, and motorcycle engines in museums on display strictly for their design and aesthetic features? Value is always a utility? Is everyone's time worth exactly the same? Is everyone's love and friendship the same?

I don't think the question here is does the heart pump blood or an engine make mechanical power. Of corse it does. Are these things utilities, yes and they are also other things besides utilities. What I am saying here is the value of those things are different to different people and value is subjective not objective. An elitist such as yourself tries to tell people what the value of something is. The truth is you have no say in what is valuable to me or in my life and vice versa.

Values of things are subjective and do not have set prices in which they are worth the same all the time. Even circumstance can make the same item two different prices to the same person.

Bitcoin is worth zero? I'm sorry but this thing you say is worth nothing can buy my airplane ticket to travel across the country so to me it has some value. What you are saying just isn't good enough.

Things need to be utilities for them to have value? Honestly I don't even believe you believe that. I think you are just trying to talk yourself into your weird way of thinking. I'm glad you spent a lot of your time and money going to higher education to learn how to make a simple chart to explain to others the way you think is better then the way they think. I'm happy for you. You have the world figured out. But in all honesty I don't think anyone here really cares and if I were you I'd go get my money back from that fancy college if that's as much critical thinking that they are teaching nowadays.

You do not seem to sure of yourself. Keep trying though, this is a strong subject for such a weak mind.

[Perunex]

There is no proof for the bitcoin and it is impossible that we should judge the crypto and bitcoin is not a value less currency and if some one make an observation that will be just illusion not not fact that shows actual value of bitcoin.

Will bitcoin today has a value and I think it will never fall into zero value, because it has now an amazing price, if we are in dip today maybe tommorow or in the next months or year we are on pump status crypto is unstable. So there is a posibility to rise or maybe fall depending on the volume of investors on the feild.

Bitcoin never had, nor ever will have value. What you see on the exchanges is not value but letters and numbers, something like this: BTC/USD 6,352.02. Value of bitcoin has always been zero, i.e. numbers that you see are not quantifiers of value but marks of events where people give their possessions for free. In the legitimate market, like EUR/USD for e.g., number 1.1700 quantifies the value of claims derived from loan created money in the US in terms of claims derived from loan created money in the EU. So, we have ratio between two things (claims) with value of their own and number is only expression of that ratio. But in the case of BTC/USD, number 6,325.02 does not represent ratio between two values, since bitcoin is a number and numbers cannot have value on their own. For that reason 6,325.02 is nothing but a numerical mark of the fact that currently, people are willing to throw away 6,325.02 US dollars for the alteration of worthless number in publicly distributed database. And this is stupidity on a scale never seen in human history.

Your understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.
USD is not "loan created money". FED has not borrowed money from aliens or Illuminati to loan it forward to business banks. It printed it - created it from thin air. And the EUR/USD is not a ratio between "claims" to loans in respective currencies. That ratio is derived absolutely and only from supply and demand of each currency for another. The same goes for BTC/USD.

You haven't defined a term "value", as interpretations I think are clashing. In your case it definitely isn't a thing of supply and demand - like in neoliberal capitalism.

Does Ethereum as a network have value? If not, does Uber or Airbnb or Reddit have value and why?

Well, you have just demonstrated that it is you whose understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.

First, FED doesn't create money. FED creates paper proof or certificate of money. Banks on the other hand create digital proof or certificate of money. So neither the FED nor the banks create money. Money is essentially created by borrowers, i.e. without the borrowers there would be no money, except commodity money - whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made.

In other words, when a bank creates numbers out of thin air by giving someone a loan, the bank didn't create money, but worthless symbols. Only when the borrower takes liability to return the loan and when this liability is secured by some form of collateral, only then "numbers" are put into circulation and only then money (fiat money) is created.
When FED (FOMC) buys government securities then the government is the borrower that takes "liability to return the loan". And this loan is secured by taxing power of the government.

Now, does that look like bitcoin to you?

Second, supply is a concept that describes the total amount of a specific good or service that is available to consumers, while demand is a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, the supply and demand for a good vary, while value of a good is stable irrespective of these two concepts. For e.g. usability and other properties of iPhone won't change if you are not willing to buy it. Thus, value is something that is inherent to a thing and what doesn't change with supply and demand. Price is what changes in that regard.  

How do you mean that bank creates number out of thin air and gives this number to borrower? Bank cannot just create number of thin air, but it needs it to take it from somewhere. From it's asset. It does not have unlimited funds to lend money to borrowers worthy of it. It cannot just create money.

Please explain us your understanding of term "value". In the equilibrium of supply and demand there is an absolute value of a good or service. I.e. the price, basically. And that can be "calculated" only long term.

[fxsurfer]

The value of anything is subjective. Ask 1000 different people what they think a bitcoin is worth and get 1000 different answers. You see to some people Bitcoin is worth zero because they either don’t care about it or don’t want to use it or maybe even know anything about it. To some people bitcoin is very valuable. It would depend on who you are asking. Everything is only worth what someone else will pay for it. There is no such thing as absolute value. To some people gold and diamonds are just shiny rocks. What is the dollar value you would put on love or a friendship? What is your pet dog or cat worth? What is your time worth? What is your car worth? These questions all have very different answers depending on who you are talking to because value is subjective not objective.

It is mind blowing how you people are poorly educated. The value is NOT subjective. The value of a thing is its ability to provide some utility. The utility of an engine is its ability to perform function - to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. Now, is the ability to convert energy subjective? Of course, not. That is why if you ask 1000 different people whether a car engine can convert energy you won't get 1000 different answers.

The utility of a heart is its ability to pump blood to the organs and tissues of your body that need the oxygen and nutrients it carries. Now, is this ability subjective? Of course, not.

The utility of fiat money is its ability to provide its owner with assets of the banks or with property of borrowers. And this is also not subjective but legally enforceable, formally recorded in the balance sheets of the banks, and confirmed every time when a borrower if forced to give his property, goods or services to fiat money owners in order to get funds for his loan payments.

Bitcoin on the other hand has no utility, as it is just a byte in a memory.

Don't hurt your mind to much thinking about it. What is really amusing to me is that even though elitist like you have wasted a lot of their life learning facts in higher education they still need poorly educated people like me to school you on what value is.

If "the value of a thing is it's ability to provide some utility" and value is not subjective please tell me what makes a painting or artwork valuable. Why is some art worth nothing and some paintings are worth a million dollars?

Do you really think everyone on this planet values their heart exactly the same even as a utility? There are people on this earth that have some serious problems and are in traumatic consent pain they can only pray and hope that their heart gives out so they may die because that's what they want.

Is an engines sole purpose to convert energy into mechanical energy? Are there not old steam, airplane, and motorcycle engines in museums on display strictly for their design and aesthetic features? Value is always a utility? Is everyone's time worth exactly the same? Is everyone's love and friendship the same?

I don't think the question here is does the heart pump blood or an engine make mechanical power. Of corse it does. Are these things utilities, yes and they are also other things besides utilities. What I am saying here is the value of those things are different to different people and value is subjective not objective. An elitist such as yourself tries to tell people what the value of something is. The truth is you have no say in what is valuable to me or in my life and vice versa.

Values of things are subjective and do not have set prices in which they are worth the same all the time. Even circumstance can make the same item two different prices to the same person.

Bitcoin is worth zero? I'm sorry but this thing you say is worth nothing can buy my airplane ticket to travel across the country so to me it has some value. What you are saying just isn't good enough.

Things need to be utilities for them to have value? Honestly I don't even believe you believe that. I think you are just trying to talk yourself into your weird way of thinking. I'm glad you spent a lot of your time and money going to higher education to learn how to make a simple chart to explain to others the way you think is better then the way they think. I'm happy for you. You have the world figured out. But in all honesty I don't think anyone here really cares and if I were you I'd go get my money back from that fancy college if that's as much critical thinking that they are teaching nowadays.

You do not seem to sure of yourself. Keep trying though, this is a strong subject for such a weak mind.

You haven't schooled me, you just repeated the same nonsense I already refuted.

Painting is valuable because it provides a perceptual experience of satisfaction or pleasure. Pleasure is a mental state that humans experience as positive, enjoyable, or worth seeking. Or put simply, pleasure is a human need, it drives us, the way hunger does or fear. That is why painting is valuable - its inherent properties are able to satisfy human needs. Now, the degree to which something is experienced as pleasurable, together with someone's wealth, determine how much someone is willing to pay for it. Thus, value is objective since it is inherent to a picture, while price is subjective since it is inherent to a person.

Inherent property of a dollar is its claim status, which can ultimately provide its holder with goods, services or property of borrowers. And it is this inherent property what makes dollar valuable.

Even a rock, due to its inherent property of hardness, is valuable  - it can be used as a weapon and save human life in some circumstances. In that case, a person might pay a million dollars for it.

But, can for e.g. a particle which comprises a rock be used to save human life? No. Can it be used to satisfy other human needs? No. That is why this particle is valueless. Simply put, its inherent properties cannot provide utility to people. The same is true for Bitcoin. It is a number, it is an abstract mathematical object, it is mere byte in a memory whose inherent properties cannot provide utility to people. That is why it is valueless.

[dohh]

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” G. Carlin.

[gesdan]

i have a theory that all thing that in the world is have the zero values at the beginning, but we can see that the demand and the stock of that thing is not stable, sometimes the stock is low and sometimes the stock is high, it is makes the value of that things is always changes every time

[fxsurfer]

There is no proof for the bitcoin and it is impossible that we should judge the crypto and bitcoin is not a value less currency and if some one make an observation that will be just illusion not not fact that shows actual value of bitcoin.

Will bitcoin today has a value and I think it will never fall into zero value, because it has now an amazing price, if we are in dip today maybe tommorow or in the next months or year we are on pump status crypto is unstable. So there is a posibility to rise or maybe fall depending on the volume of investors on the feild.

Bitcoin never had, nor ever will have value. What you see on the exchanges is not value but letters and numbers, something like this: BTC/USD 6,352.02. Value of bitcoin has always been zero, i.e. numbers that you see are not quantifiers of value but marks of events where people give their possessions for free. In the legitimate market, like EUR/USD for e.g., number 1.1700 quantifies the value of claims derived from loan created money in the US in terms of claims derived from loan created money in the EU. So, we have ratio between two things (claims) with value of their own and number is only expression of that ratio. But in the case of BTC/USD, number 6,325.02 does not represent ratio between two values, since bitcoin is a number and numbers cannot have value on their own. For that reason 6,325.02 is nothing but a numerical mark of the fact that currently, people are willing to throw away 6,325.02 US dollars for the alteration of worthless number in publicly distributed database. And this is stupidity on a scale never seen in human history.

Your understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.
USD is not "loan created money". FED has not borrowed money from aliens or Illuminati to loan it forward to business banks. It printed it - created it from thin air. And the EUR/USD is not a ratio between "claims" to loans in respective currencies. That ratio is derived absolutely and only from supply and demand of each currency for another. The same goes for BTC/USD.

You haven't defined a term "value", as interpretations I think are clashing. In your case it definitely isn't a thing of supply and demand - like in neoliberal capitalism.

Does Ethereum as a network have value? If not, does Uber or Airbnb or Reddit have value and why?

Well, you have just demonstrated that it is you whose understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.

First, FED doesn't create money. FED creates paper proof or certificate of money. Banks on the other hand create digital proof or certificate of money. So neither the FED nor the banks create money. Money is essentially created by borrowers, i.e. without the borrowers there would be no money, except commodity money - whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made.

In other words, when a bank creates numbers out of thin air by giving someone a loan, the bank didn't create money, but worthless symbols. Only when the borrower takes liability to return the loan and when this liability is secured by some form of collateral, only then "numbers" are put into circulation and only then money (fiat money) is created.
When FED (FOMC) buys government securities then the government is the borrower that takes "liability to return the loan". And this loan is secured by taxing power of the government.

Now, does that look like bitcoin to you?

Second, supply is a concept that describes the total amount of a specific good or service that is available to consumers, while demand is a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, the supply and demand for a good vary, while value of a good is stable irrespective of these two concepts. For e.g. usability and other properties of iPhone won't change if you are not willing to buy it. Thus, value is something that is inherent to a thing and what doesn't change with supply and demand. Price is what changes in that regard.  

How do you mean that bank creates number out of thin air and gives this number to borrower? Bank cannot just create number of thin air, but it needs it to take it from somewhere. From it's asset. It does not have unlimited funds to lend money to borrowers worthy of it. It cannot just create money.

Please explain us your understanding of term "value". In the equilibrium of supply and demand there is an absolute value of a good or service. I.e. the price, basically. And that can be "calculated" only long term.

A bank indeed creates numbers out of thin air since they are just ... numbers, and there is no other way to create them. What the bank must take from somewhere is liability, or in other words, a person that will take liability to return numbers to the bank and offer some collateral for that. Numbers are just means to express the size of this liability and of course they are created out of thin air.

I explained the term "value" in the post above.

[Camilla Gill]

Bitcoin has value, because a lot of resources must be spent (hardware, electricity and bandwidth) to mine Bitcoins. Gold and Silver are unfounded but they have value, because it’s difficult to be found and mined. The same applies to Bitcoin. Bitcoin has unique features, so people want it, and they pay for it.

So, Bitcoin HAS value. Countries tolerate Bitcoin, because they know that it has value, and it’s not a scam.

[pitiflin]

Just as every database, this database is an organized collection of data which provides information about some aspect of reality, in this case the ownership of things. Alice, Bob, Steve and Peter own a specific quantity of iPhones, US Dollars, IBM shares and Bitcoins.

Shares is a piece of paper, bitcoin is a digital currency. What would you say if the person holding US$ is having it stored on PayPal, or if the person having iPhones has 2 iPhones that are non-functioning?

So, Peter owns 2 numbers and Peter owns number 2. But how can someone own a number?

Ever heard of a digital signature? That's how one can prove they own those bitcoins.

Just as every As such, these numbers are valueless on their own, and they can be created out of thin air. On the other hand, electronic devices, borrowers liabilities/collaterals, and company's capital, obviously cannot be created out of thin air. And that is why things (iPhones, US Dollars and IBM Shares) are what have value, not the numbers. Numbers are just symbols that represent/quantify these things and they cannot have value in principle. For e.g. in the case of dollars, it is not the number "20" in the database what Bob owns. He owns a share in the total claims that originated from the total borrowers liabilities. If the total liabilities(debt) in the U.S monetary system is X, Bob owns 20/X of share in claims derived from these liabilities.

You do know that USD is created out of thin air, as in, they are printed limitlessly and yet have people starving to death. Shares and bitcoin, both of their prices are determined by market forces. And shares ARE created out of thin air. Sometimes ownership of a company's capital means nothing.

But, in the case of bitcoin, Peter literally owns number "2" in the database, since bitcoin(entry in column C) is just a fancy name for the number in column B and it represents nothing outside the database itself. So, since bitcoin is a number while numbers are only representations of values that exist outside the database, not only that bitcoin has zero value but the term "bitcoin's value" is an oxymoron.

Bitcoin is not just a number, stop misleading people. Its a currency that has now become more of a speculative asset. Bitcoin has value, like it or not. It is not zero, if it was, nobody would be using it, and nobody would be "hodling" it. No one can explain anything to you,if you live in blindspread ignorance.

[Dylan Bargeman]

No currency has real value anymore. It’s all air. The only difference between fiat currencies and cryptocurrencies is that cryptocurrencies works faster, cheaper, is decentralized (no banks needed) and deflationary, instead of the greatest theft in the world: inflation.
Nature will always choose the path of least resistance or the most effective path. The most effective path is cryptocurrencies.

[maskeffec]

I would not say that bitcoin is worthless because of the current decline, because prices for coins are comparable to the technology they have, despite all the negative signs in the crypto currency market, and in general the world has a bad reputation, but Bitcoin is still very valuable compared to coins crypto others.

[Perunex]

There is no proof for the bitcoin and it is impossible that we should judge the crypto and bitcoin is not a value less currency and if some one make an observation that will be just illusion not not fact that shows actual value of bitcoin.

Will bitcoin today has a value and I think it will never fall into zero value, because it has now an amazing price, if we are in dip today maybe tommorow or in the next months or year we are on pump status crypto is unstable. So there is a posibility to rise or maybe fall depending on the volume of investors on the feild.

Bitcoin never had, nor ever will have value. What you see on the exchanges is not value but letters and numbers, something like this: BTC/USD 6,352.02. Value of bitcoin has always been zero, i.e. numbers that you see are not quantifiers of value but marks of events where people give their possessions for free. In the legitimate market, like EUR/USD for e.g., number 1.1700 quantifies the value of claims derived from loan created money in the US in terms of claims derived from loan created money in the EU. So, we have ratio between two things (claims) with value of their own and number is only expression of that ratio. But in the case of BTC/USD, number 6,325.02 does not represent ratio between two values, since bitcoin is a number and numbers cannot have value on their own. For that reason 6,325.02 is nothing but a numerical mark of the fact that currently, people are willing to throw away 6,325.02 US dollars for the alteration of worthless number in publicly distributed database. And this is stupidity on a scale never seen in human history.

Your understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.
USD is not "loan created money". FED has not borrowed money from aliens or Illuminati to loan it forward to business banks. It printed it - created it from thin air. And the EUR/USD is not a ratio between "claims" to loans in respective currencies. That ratio is derived absolutely and only from supply and demand of each currency for another. The same goes for BTC/USD.

You haven't defined a term "value", as interpretations I think are clashing. In your case it definitely isn't a thing of supply and demand - like in neoliberal capitalism.

Does Ethereum as a network have value? If not, does Uber or Airbnb or Reddit have value and why?

Well, you have just demonstrated that it is you whose understanding of the global economy and global banking system is poor.

First, FED doesn't create money. FED creates paper proof or certificate of money. Banks on the other hand create digital proof or certificate of money. So neither the FED nor the banks create money. Money is essentially created by borrowers, i.e. without the borrowers there would be no money, except commodity money - whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made.

In other words, when a bank creates numbers out of thin air by giving someone a loan, the bank didn't create money, but worthless symbols. Only when the borrower takes liability to return the loan and when this liability is secured by some form of collateral, only then "numbers" are put into circulation and only then money (fiat money) is created.
When FED (FOMC) buys government securities then the government is the borrower that takes "liability to return the loan". And this loan is secured by taxing power of the government.

Now, does that look like bitcoin to you?

Second, supply is a concept that describes the total amount of a specific good or service that is available to consumers, while demand is a consumer's desire and willingness to pay a price for a specific good or service. In other words, the supply and demand for a good vary, while value of a good is stable irrespective of these two concepts. For e.g. usability and other properties of iPhone won't change if you are not willing to buy it. Thus, value is something that is inherent to a thing and what doesn't change with supply and demand. Price is what changes in that regard.  

How do you mean that bank creates number out of thin air and gives this number to borrower? Bank cannot just create number of thin air, but it needs it to take it from somewhere. From it's asset. It does not have unlimited funds to lend money to borrowers worthy of it. It cannot just create money.

Please explain us your understanding of term "value". In the equilibrium of supply and demand there is an absolute value of a good or service. I.e. the price, basically. And that can be "calculated" only long term.

A bank indeed creates numbers out of thin air since they are just ... numbers, and there is no other way to create them. What the bank must take from somewhere is liability, or in other words, a person that will take liability to return numbers to the bank and offer some collateral for that. Numbers are just means to express the size of this liability and of course they are created out of thin air.

I explained the term "value" in the post above.

But these numbers that banks "create out of thin air" and take liabilities from people (in our case) with collateral needs to be transferred from somewhere. From its asset side - double entry bookkeeping. In other words, if a small bank which assets are 1 mil USD and 100 people want 100 mil USD loan (they want to take the liability) with a sufficient collateral, this small banks cannot provide the loans for them. They cannot create a number out of thin air and forward that number to these people that want the loan (and have a good collateral to get it), simply because it does not have the assets or funds to do that.

Does a airbnb platform have value? And I mean just the platform itself, without the company behind it, without the real estates which are on the platform. The platform itself is only bunch of numbers and other data.

[imutzz]

Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

[Perunex]

Dang it read 4 pages just to realize op is just trolling around, I don't even consider him serious anymore. many people already explained to him in so many ways that even beginners can understand and he just refuses to accept the fact.

Actually, I am not sure he is just trolling. He has a solid, veeeery theoretical point. Imo, we are just abstractly, in theory, talking about "value" in general and bitcoin. In practice this debate is actually quite meaningless. It is still imo interesting debate.