Re: I.Goldstein's charity ponzi

[bitleaker]

I don't recall a single time I've failed.

Delusions work like that Atlas. In your eyes, I can believe that you don't recall a single time you have ever failed. In everyone else's eyes, we can all recall many times that you have failed - that is because we are not suffering from the same delusions as you are

[ineededausername]

I don't understand why the Bitcoin community embraces scams like Ponzi schemes so enthusiastically.  Crap, theymos had (still has?) a link to a Ponzi scheme in his sig for the longest time.  It's just sad.  And letting one of the least reliable forum posters run one in the main forum for "charity" is beyond embarrassing. 

If you read the rules for Ponzi and still think it's a scam, you're an idiot.  It's a voluntary activity.

[Rassah]

I still think it's funny that everyone here and on SA, including Matthew, are trying to "change" or "fix" Atlas. Can't be done. You can't change people even if you call their parents. But it's entertaining to watch you all try.

[I.Goldstein]

Call my parents. I dare you. You could give me no greater pleasure.

[Jalum]

I will be contacting Manny's parents directly to discuss with them the annoyance their son has been to the community, the dangers he has opened them up to in a federal level, and his general mental health issues.

You're a really creepy guy.  This is an internet slapfight.  Leave it on the internet.

[Giraffe.BTC]

I don't understand why the Bitcoin community embraces scams like Ponzi schemes so enthusiastically.  Crap, theymos had (still has?) a link to a Ponzi scheme in his sig for the longest time.  It's just sad.  And letting one of the least reliable forum posters run one in the main forum for "charity" is beyond embarrassing. 

If you read the rules for Ponzi and still think it's a scam, you're an idiot.  It's a voluntary activity.

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

[ineededausername]

I don't understand why the Bitcoin community embraces scams like Ponzi schemes so enthusiastically.  Crap, theymos had (still has?) a link to a Ponzi scheme in his sig for the longest time.  It's just sad.  And letting one of the least reliable forum posters run one in the main forum for "charity" is beyond embarrassing.  

If you read the rules for Ponzi and still think it's a scam, you're an idiot.  It's a voluntary activity.

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

Nigerian princes promise something that they can't deliver. I don't.
Amway is a perfectly legitimate business by my standards (or at least the concept of Amway -- how they operate is an entirely different matter...).
Some people win, others lose.  Gambling as a whole "preys on people's natural stupidity and greed."  That doesn't make it morally wrong.
I'm tired of arguing with people like you.

[Rassah]

I don't understand why the Bitcoin community embraces scams like Ponzi schemes so enthusiastically.  Crap, theymos had (still has?) a link to a Ponzi scheme in his sig for the longest time.  It's just sad.  And letting one of the least reliable forum posters run one in the main forum for "charity" is beyond embarrassing. 

If you read the rules for Ponzi and still think it's a scam, you're an idiot.  It's a voluntary activity.

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

So, are you saying slot machines, Black Jack, Roulette, State Lottery, and all other forms of gambling are a scam? In this "ponzi" everyone is aware of what it is and what the chance of payout is. How is this not just a Ponzi style lottery?

[ineededausername]

I don't understand why the Bitcoin community embraces scams like Ponzi schemes so enthusiastically.  Crap, theymos had (still has?) a link to a Ponzi scheme in his sig for the longest time.  It's just sad.  And letting one of the least reliable forum posters run one in the main forum for "charity" is beyond embarrassing. 

If you read the rules for Ponzi and still think it's a scam, you're an idiot.  It's a voluntary activity.

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

So, are you saying slot machines, Black Jack, Roulette, State Lottery, and all other forms of gambling are a scam? In this "ponzi" everyone is aware of what it is and what the chance of payout is. How is this not just a Ponzi style lottery?

+1. You nailed it.

[Explodicle]

"Mr and Mrs Goldstein! Hello, my name is Matthew, I'm with the South Korean police and I've been reading your son's posts on the internet. DID YOU KNOW your son is unstable and makes all these UNTRUE claims about unrecognized imaginary internet money?

No, I haven't formally opened up a case, I've just been reading these forums on my own time...

Well YES, I am a grown man. Wh...

Now you hold it right there. I MAJORED in child psychology! I can diagnose your kid with...

Hello? Hello? DAMMIT I WILL CALL INTERPOL ON THESE ABUSIVE PARENTS!"

[johnj]

Bitcoins: Free from banks, not from stalkers.

That's creepy as fuck you want to get involved in that dudes personal life, and threatening state intervention is gross.

[Giraffe.BTC]

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

Nigerian princes promise something that they can't deliver. I don't.
Amway is a perfectly legitimate business by my standards (or at least the concept of Amway -- how they operate is an entirely different matter...).
Some people win, others lose.  Gambling as a whole "preys on people's natural stupidity and greed."  That doesn't make it morally wrong.
I'm tired of arguing with people like you.

Arguing with me is voluntary, therefore you must enjoy it.

The gambling analogy is a good one.  Gambling can be done fairly, but not all gambling is fair.  Let's say I create a game with complicated rules that pays out well at first to draw people in but eventually just takes everyone's money, that is a scam.  But just because that game is unfair doesn't make poker a scam.  See, some things are scams and some things aren't.  Ponzi schemes are scams.  Puppies are not.  Nigerian prince emails are scams.  Hugs from your grandma are not.

[Rassah]

Giving money to Nigerian princes and joining Amway is also voluntary.  That doesn't make either any less of a scam.  Scams that prey on people's natural stupidity and greed don't stop being scams simply because the mark isn't robbed at gunpoint.

Nigerian princes promise something that they can't deliver. I don't.
Amway is a perfectly legitimate business by my standards (or at least the concept of Amway -- how they operate is an entirely different matter...).
Some people win, others lose.  Gambling as a whole "preys on people's natural stupidity and greed."  That doesn't make it morally wrong.
I'm tired of arguing with people like you.

Arguing with me is voluntary, therefore you must enjoy it.

The gambling analogy is a good one.  Gambling can be done fairly, but not all gambling is fair.  Let's say I create a game with complicated rules that pays out well at first to draw people in but eventually just takes everyone's money, that is a scam.  But just because that game is unfair doesn't make poker a scam.  See, some things are scams and some things aren't.  Ponzi schemes are scams.  Puppies are not.  Nigerian prince emails are scams.  Hugs from your grandma are not.

If you publicly told everyone that your game would pay out more to those who played first, it won't be a scam. Scam implies you are telling people something that is untrue. No one is hiding anything here. Sending money to someone in Nigeria after they tell you they just need money and won't pay you back isn't a scam either.

[ineededausername]

Yeah, I publicly admit that people LOSE MONEY ON PONZI.  They can also win.
This full disclosure makes ponzi NOT A SCAM.

[I.Goldstein]

You don't see me calling ineedausername a scammer because I could lose nearly 67 BTC at any moment. I am fully aware of what I got into. He has classified nothing about his game.

Ponzi is far from a scam. It's gambling but not a fraudulent scam.

[naypalm]

A Charity Ponzi? X that gives X to help a person or organization and Y that screws people out of Y shouldn't be in the same sentence. They cancel each other out!

[Primitive Caveman]

I never thought I would see someone defend ponzi schemes like this. Holy shit, you people really don't know anything about economics, do you?

[Giraffe.BTC]

Yeah, I publicly admit that people LOSE MONEY ON PONZI.  They can also win.

Funny how you phrase it like that, with a generic statement that applies to every type of gambling and investment.  That's Scamming 101.  "Folks, I can't guarantee you'll get rich on this.  You could technically lose your money.  But that's life:  you've got to spend money to make money!"

This full disclosure makes ponzi NOT A SCAM.

Full disclosure?  That generic statement is not full disclosure.  Full disclosure in a Ponzi scheme would be maintaining an updated listing of how many people have paid in so far, how many more have to pay in for the previous group to collect and how many MORE will have to pay in for you to collect.  No Ponzi schemes do this because people would stop putting their money once the numbers point to collection being nearly impossible. 

But since you're obviously very interested in running an honest operation, I'm sure you'll want to include this information for people to make an informed decision before joining...

[ineededausername]

You can already see how many people paid in.  Since you do not realize this, you have obviously not even attempted to take a rational look at my site.  Arguing without knowing what you're talking about makes you look like an idiot.
The other two suggestions you make are actually good ideas, they'd help people make informed decisions.  I'll try to get them implemented soon.  However, you can already calculate these figures from the site's public listings.
Also, I'd like to note that late in a Ponzi game, people are betting that either they'll get the large jackpot or that they'll get paid out because the game will go on for a very long time due to the large jackpot.

[Rarity]

As a public relations expert I would suggest one of the problems you are having is one of perception.  Since you have named your game after a fraudulent and illegal investment scheme associated with criminals such as Bernie Madoff, people are assuming out of ignorance that your game is similar to the fraudulent activities of other individuals.

I would suggest dropping those references from your site and focusing on the BitConduit brand as the name of the game.  You still maintain full disclosure of the rules and payments of course.  I personally believe all pure chance gambling should be illegal, but since like poker this is a game of skill where you interpret the actions of others it is a little less problematic.