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Author Topic: Brexit - Why do they call a second referendum a "people's vote"  (Read 435 times)
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October 12, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
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 #21

It's a common propaganda tactic to use simple names to associate ideas or feelings with the thing you want to promote.
In Soviet Russia the state propaganda press was called Truth. Orwell makes great note of all these things.
Calling it the peoples vote is meant to support their agitprop tactic of pretending that the first vote was a sham, orchestrated by "them", and based on disinformation.
It's rather amusing, considering that before the referendum, Remainers would rubbish the idea of a forced second vote (as happened in Ireland, Holland etc) as conspiracy theory and here they are (the EU and neolibs) attempting to do just that. It's laughable.
If there is a second vote, the public has no reason to vote ever again.

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October 12, 2018, 10:33:02 AM
 #22

The core of the question is though, if now the majority votes for not leaving how can you deny their choice?


Technically we have already left, as we triggered an irrerversible leaving process. We can extend the "transition" period to allow furher disposal and theft of national assets by the Eton/Oxford banking elite. Alternatively, we can apply to rejoin the bankrupt EU. There wouldn't be any pont though, as the Elite are already working on the replacements for the EU - eEstonia, The Saudi community, The new British UnCommonwealth, and some Asian projects for example. They need to get rid of a load more of the world population first though. If you don't belive me, then reflect on these facts.

The giant mosquito created by a company founded by Oxford Univerity in 2002, and recently released in North Carolina following the Hurricane devastation.
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Harvard and the Sorbonne are closely linked with the Eton/Oxford group - remember Clinton was a Rhodes scholar at Oxford.

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October 12, 2018, 07:49:39 PM
 #23


British inclusion into the EU was never voted on, this was a bureaucratic hijacking to begin with. Speaking of lies, lets talk about the cost of limitless unenforced illegal immigration and the violence and crime it brings. It worked well in the referendum because no one bothered asking the people to begin with, and they never wanted this.

Your elected representatives are the people you vote for, not bureaucrats.

The European immigration is legal and does not bring crime, it does not bring violence and greatly contributes to the UK productivity. These are statistical facts.

If people don´t want this, what is the problem in asking again? No need to answer, we both know what the result would be.


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October 12, 2018, 08:00:06 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2018, 09:16:34 PM by paxmao
 #24

We can extend the "transition" period

You can make a vague deal that will be deemed unacceptable by hard brexiters, but the problem of having a country and a governing party that are divided is not going to solve itself.

For the moment, the UK rebate (a huge amount of money) is questioned in case the UK decides to remain. Creating uncertainty and trouble is not free.


True, but what is the point of having a vote if it is just ignored? ...

If there is a second vote, the public has no reason to vote ever again.

The vote was not ignored. The government has tried to deliver the promises that were made during the referendum. Just in case someone did not know already, these were absolutely impossible.

- The EU immigration is linked to the common market and the UK cannot pick and choose.
- You can´t pretend to access a market without having a common jurisdiction.
- You can´t substitute the trade the UK has with Europe with imaginary trade deals with Trumpist USA, China, India nor any other country.

And so many other stupidities that no-one ever thought that would have to be delivered, as the result was not expected.

At this point, most UK citizens have finally realised that it was a bad idea to leave,  that the younger generations are going to pay for it dearly and that it would be convenient to re-think (re-vote) to see what people think today after seeing the true nature of a Brexit.

The core of the question is though, if now the majority votes for not leaving how can you deny their choice?

Correct, they could be offered a choice of what type of Brexit they want or try (I am not that sure it is really possible) to revert the decision.

The realistic alternatives at this point are:

a) WTO rules, with no deal at all. Hard border in Ireland.
 This option is super-expensive. Not even the UK can afford the luxury of doing this.

b) Canadian style trade deal.
Reasonable, yet still very expensive. Probably would cause a crisis for the young generations.

c) Norwegian / Swiss type of deal, with full access to market and free movement of people.
Would make the UK loose face, as it was better to have influence, but minimises the crisis, the pound recovers and we are again one happy (dysfunctional) family.

There is no chance of a Chequers agreement. In the UK is seen as insufficient for the brexiters and in Europe is seen as giving a ridiculously privileged treatment to the UK.

BTW, Can any of the hard brexiters here provide a practical, economically viable and realistic answer to the Irish border issue? Because all that is being said is about conspiracy theories, governing illuminati, etc... but I just don´t see anything that could possibly solve the real problems. Just a mumble-jumble of empire-age nostalgia, mixed with false information and xenophobic propaganda.

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October 12, 2018, 09:12:36 PM
 #25

We can extend the "transition" period

Again - no you can´t. That requires the consensus of the 27 EU members. At most you can make a vague deal, but the problem of having a country and a governing party that are divided is not going to solve itself.

True, but what is the point of having a vote if it is just ignored? ...

If there is a second vote, the public has no reason to vote ever again.

The vote was not ignored. The government has tried to deliver the promises that were made during the referendum. Just in case someone did not know already, these were absolutely impossible.

- The EU immigration is linked to the common market and the UK cannot pick and choose.
- You can´t pretend to access a market without having a common jurisdiction.
- You can´t substitute the trade the UK has with Europe with imaginary trade deals with Trumpist USA, China, India nor any other country.

And so many other stupidities that no-one ever thought that would have to be delivered, as the result was not expected.

At this point, most UK citizens have finally realised that it was a bad idea to leave,  that the younger generations are going to pay for it dearly and that it would be convenient to re-think (re-vote) to see what people think today after seeing the true nature of a Brexit.

The core of the question is though, if now the majority votes for not leaving how can you deny their choice?

Correct. The people anyway would not be able to vote on remaining or leaving, but they could be offered a choice of what type of Brexit they want.

The realistic alternatives at this point are:

a) WTO rules, with no deal at all. Hard border in Ireland.
 This option is super-expensive. Not even the UK can afford the luxury of doing this.

b) Canadian style trade deal.
Reasonable, yet still very expensive. Probably would cause a crisis for the young generations.

c) Norwegian / Swiss type of deal, with full access to market and free movement of people.
Would make the UK loose face, as it was better to have influence, but minimises the crisis, the pound recovers and we are again one happy (dysfunctional) family.

There is no chance of a Chequers agreement. In the UK is seen as insufficient for the brexiters and in Europe is seen as giving a ridiculously privileged treatment to the UK.

BTW, Can any of the hard brexiters here provide a practical, economically viable and realistic answer to the Irish border issue? Because all that is being said is about conspiracy theories, governing illuminati, etc... but I just don´t see anything that could possibly solve the real problems. Just a mumble-jumble of empire-age nostalgia, mixed with false information and xenophobic propaganda.


Yes, the vote is being ignored, if it wasn't why try to vote again? Yes the UK absolutely can replace its trade with the EU, that is how world markets work. The "BREXIT" did not cause any of these issues. These ware all already issues, or they were invented to create as much disincentive as possible for leaving the EU. This is basically a financial and geopolitical bait and switch. The EU arrangements are odious on their face and DESIGNED to strip EU of its wealth, rights, and sovereignty.


The core of the question is though, if now the majority votes for not leaving how can you deny their choice?
Because that is how voting works. People choose and the most popular choice wins. Only they already voted, and it was to leave.


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October 12, 2018, 09:31:09 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2018, 09:42:48 PM by paxmao
 #26

Because that is how voting works. People choose and the most popular choice wins. Only they already voted, and it was to leave.

Why are you afraid to let people vote now then? They now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are.

You may try to deny what´s happening, but the problem with reality is that is there even if you don´t like it: All the economic indicators of UK are going downhill, including the leadership in finances, the industrial capability and the ability of updating salaries with inflation even at full employment. The interest rates are also now going to catch the families on the wrong foot.

And no, you cannot replace more 25% of your exports without a huge damage to the country, that´s not how markets work.

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October 13, 2018, 01:16:12 AM
 #27

Because that is how voting works. People choose and the most popular choice wins. Only they already voted, and it was to leave.

Why are you afraid to let people vote now then? They now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are.

You may try to deny what´s happening, but the problem with reality is that is there even if you don´t like it: All the economic indicators of UK are going downhill, including the leadership in finances, the industrial capability and the ability of updating salaries with inflation even at full employment. The interest rates are also now going to catch the families on the wrong foot.

And no, you cannot replace more 25% of your exports without a huge damage to the country, that´s not how markets work.

Oh nice debate tactic there, you really put me on the defensive. I sure am scared! DOOM AND GLOOM! THE SKY IS FALLING!

Really though, I explained multiple times already why this second vote is a fraud and the EU itself was a fraud to begin with. What you are talking about is not reality, it is a synthetic manufactured illusion created by the media. Another vote just gives these con artists another opportunity to rig it right this time. Any problems you can point at were ongoing previously or purposely exasperated by the EU in a punitive attempt at punishing the UK for voting to leave. They are desperate because all it will take is one more major contributing nation to leave before the EU is a non-entity.


Also everyone might want to take note, this was Hitler's ultimate goal, a unified Europe. Just saying...


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October 13, 2018, 03:01:33 AM
 #28

Because that is how voting works. People choose and the most popular choice wins. Only they already voted, and it was to leave.

Why are you afraid to let people vote now then? They now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are.

You may try to deny what´s happening, but the problem with reality is that is there even if you don´t like it: All the economic indicators of UK are going downhill, including the leadership in finances, the industrial capability and the ability of updating salaries with inflation even at full employment. The interest rates are also now going to catch the families on the wrong foot.

And no, you cannot replace more 25% of your exports without a huge damage to the country, that´s not how markets work.
Why are you afraid to let people vote now then.. We British are not afraid of another vote    we just want the first vote carried out first ..
See the idea of voting is 1 vote to see what the outcome is    no point in voting again and again because some didn't get what they wanted OR what is the point in having a vote?..

Now have had more time to ponder how real were the promises and what the consequences are..
We was told nuke war locust starve to death sky falls in mega death  I mean what more could they have told us before we voted leave? ..

Now everyone knows the EU don't want us to leave NOW lets imagine we have a second vote on the outcome we go to the EU and say what deal can we have what do you think they will say ?    KNOWING we are having a second vote on the outcome of leaving the EU ..

They will say nuke war locust starve to death sky falls in mega death<<A FACT   so now do you want to leave the EU  UK ?   then are we suppose to say oh we are all going to die lets stay? ..Because this is the plan  well the hope   but we had a vote we leave then after 10 years we may want to rejoin but i doubt it  Grin..
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October 13, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Last edit: October 13, 2018, 03:48:51 PM by paxmao
 #29

- No, Europe is not a dictatorship, you have elected members. You can leave whenever you want as long as you are willing to accept te consequences like an adult.

- No, many countries in Europe are glad that the UK has decided to leave, because it was in the way of the fiscal unification agenda of Germany and France.

- No, the hard border with Ireland was not there before Brexit. The cost of it cannot be assumed.

- No, is not a debate tactic, it is, once again, the reality of things. The result of the first vote has been carried out. People now, with full information of the results achieved can have a say. A say that you want to silence while you pretend to be the paragon and defender of democracy - Because you know what the result would be don´t you?

- The chance of re-joining the EU in a future date is unrealistic. UK has caused a big problem and an economic loss to everyone in the EU along with uncertainty to many British and non-British citizens. This is not like dating, it has severe consequences on the lives of many people - not the rich precisely.

There is no hell or falling heavens, there are simply hard economic facts that are showing themselves and promises that are impossible to deliver. That is not what leavers voted for.



PROMISED ......VS........ DELIVERED
WOULD YOU NOT HAVE A SAY ON THIS RESULT?





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October 13, 2018, 05:53:57 PM
 #30

So much misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread.

The referendum asked a fairly simple question - should we leave the EU? The country said that it wanted out, and the two year transition period wass to create new trading rules, not to try to make everything as bad as possible to weaken the country as a punishment for disobeying the Elite.

Democracy doesn't work when your choice is between two Prime Ministers, both of whom are part of the Eton/Oxford puppet masters group. It is even harder to implement when the senior civil servants are also sworn membersof the same coven. It has taken Donald Trump two years of very careful planning and action to start to pull America out of the same pit. We need a Donald Trump in the UK.

Uncontrolled immigration has been a massive economic and social disaster for Britain. Just visit some of the cities to see the results, and that includes London.

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October 13, 2018, 07:24:45 PM
 #31

I think you gotta understand that opinions of humans change.

And if people want to vote again let them vote, that is what democracy is.

Btw. You guys could also vote if you should do a 2nd vote.  Cheesy



So much misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread.

The referendum asked a fairly simple question - should we leave the EU? The country said that it wanted out, and the two year transition period wass to create new trading rules, not to try to make everything as bad as possible to weaken the country as a punishment for disobeying the Elite.

Democracy doesn't work when your choice is between two Prime Ministers, both of whom are part of the Eton/Oxford puppet masters group. It is even harder to implement when the senior civil servants are also sworn membersof the same coven. It has taken Donald Trump two years of very careful planning and action to start to pull America out of the same pit. We need a Donald Trump in the UK.

Uncontrolled immigration has been a massive economic and social disaster for Britain. Just visit some of the cities to see the results, and that includes London.
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October 13, 2018, 09:56:43 PM
 #32

Uncontrolled immigration has been a massive economic and social disaster for Britain. Just visit some of the cities to see the results, and that includes London.

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.


There are many ways of getting out of the EU. Norway is out, Switzerland is out, Rusia is out... But they are not outside in the same way.

In the name of democracy, the final say has to be silenced. - Am I the only one that sees something wrong in that statement?

Democracy doesn't work when your choice is between two Prime Ministers, both of whom are part of the Eton/Oxford puppet masters group. We need a Donald Trump in the UK.

Well, at least someone is proposing a solution: Offering Trump the "presidency" of UK. Would you you allow a referendum on that, or would you say that it was implicit on the previous one?


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October 13, 2018, 11:11:16 PM
 #33

Uncontrolled immigration has been a massive economic and social disaster for Britain. Just visit some of the cities to see the results, and that includes London.

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.


There are many ways of getting out of the EU. Norway is out, Switzerland is out, Rusia is out... But they are not outside in the same way.

In the name of democracy, the final say has to be silenced. - Am I the only one that sees something wrong in that statement?

Democracy doesn't work when your choice is between two Prime Ministers, both of whom are part of the Eton/Oxford puppet masters group. We need a Donald Trump in the UK.

Well, at least someone is proposing a solution: Offering Trump the "presidency" of UK. Would you you allow a referendum on that, or would you say that it was implicit on the previous one?

If the EU borders are open, and other countries don't control immigration, the UK's immigration is effectively uncontrolled. You talk about whats on paper all you want. The reality is people don't want the EU. They already get almost no representation at a national level. Do you really believe you will get representation at a supranational or global level? Please. If you do I have a rare autographed football from Santa Claus I would like to sell you.

The EU is the problem, it always was. Not participating is the solution. No one ever voted to join the EU, they were just pigeonholed into it by bureaucrats so people like you can pretend Brexit is the cause of these issues and not the EU. Unaccountable international organizations controlled by cartels are the problem. National sovereignty is the solution.


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paxmao
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October 14, 2018, 09:26:03 PM
 #34

If the EU borders are open....

They are not. There is an immigration law in the EU. Regarding immigrants from the EU, they have never been a problem. They are on average qualified and willing to integrate themselves in UK, follow the law and pay taxes.

No one ever voted to join the EU, they were just pigeonholed into it by bureaucrats so people like you can pretend Brexit is the cause of these issues and not the EU....

Again, you put yourself as the paladin of democracy, yet at the same time you deny people a say on their future.

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popcorn1
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October 14, 2018, 09:40:56 PM
 #35

No, Europe is not a dictatorship..Say the same to ITALY POLAND HUNGARY GREECE ..Oh and trying to do the same to the UK Cheesy  NO CHANCE..

you have elected members. JUNKER unelected ? The European Commission is a permanent unelected body of 17 people appointed by national Governments for 5 years or more..

You can leave whenever you want as long as you are willing to accept the consequences like an adult.
I think it's the EU who will be having consequences when we leave   that's why they want us to stay so much..

I want a no deal walk away   27 countries all squabbling over apples and car parts   make them our self Grin..

I worked in car factory and many many times they have slow downs because you can only sell so many cars before everyone has a car Roll Eyes..
They are called slow downs many many factories have this but they will blame brexit at this present time in life   REMEMBER when business has share holders easy to blame something else than your companies performance  Wink..

just another world lesson from the popcorn1..
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October 14, 2018, 09:59:09 PM
 #36

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.
Not "LONDONERS" really         more like IRAQ AFRICA all rolled into one ..

Be like going to TOKYO and no JAPAN peoples there Grin  so what was the point in going to JAPAN? Undecided Cheesy..
Maybe i go to botswana and they be more cockneys there ?..

Hmm maybe we should change our countries names like call botswana LONDON  and LONDON botswana  Wink..
See that way if i go on holiday i know what type of holiday i will be getting..

I can imagine a poor guy from Japan saving up to go to LONDON then when he gets here thinks fuck me it's like botswana Cheesy..
When he should of went to botswana where all the cockneys are..
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October 14, 2018, 10:34:53 PM
 #37

If the EU borders are open....

They are not. There is an immigration law in the EU. Regarding immigrants from the EU, they have never been a problem. They are on average qualified and willing to integrate themselves in UK, follow the law and pay taxes.

A law on the books is not the same as reality or enforcement. Never been a problem? NEVER?! ok... Also I would love to see your data supporting these conclusions. BTW, are you talking about illegal immigrants, or just immigrants? I know you people like to make it like people like me don't make a distinction.

Legal immigrants largely do all those things, illegal immigrants don't. Also many "legal" immigrants are there by false pretenses, which really makes them illegal immigrants.

No one ever voted to join the EU, they were just pigeonholed into it by bureaucrats so people like you can pretend Brexit is the cause of these issues and not the EU....

Again, you put yourself as the paladin of democracy, yet at the same time you deny people a say on their future.

Uh, no. That is what the people pushing the EU have done. OH WE MUST ALLOW THE VOTE! THIS IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC! You yourself literally even did it in the same breath as you accuse me of it. I am simply arguing within the rubric presented. Frankly in my opinion pure Democracy is a flawed form of government, but that is another discussion.


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paxmao
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October 15, 2018, 03:26:49 PM
Last edit: October 16, 2018, 11:04:28 AM by paxmao
 #38

No, Europe is not a dictatorship..Say the same to ITALY POLAND HUNGARY GREECE ..Oh and trying to do the same to the UK Cheesy  NO CHANCE..

All these countries can leave as long as they accept the consequences. A different matter is if it is in their best interest to stay, which it is.

you have elected members. JUNKER unelected ? The European Commission is a permanent unelected body of 17 people appointed by national Governments for 5 years or more..

National Governments are elected, thus the Commission is elected by elected people to represent the interest of their countries in the best possible manner. You may call that "non-elected" but I disagree.

I think it's the EU who will be having consequences when we leave   that's why they want us to stay so much...

You are free to think so. For me, it is clear that Germany and France agendas are going to progress much faster without the UK, which has been basically blocking the much needed changes in EU due to its own internal divisions.

Now, there is no doubt that the EU is stronger with the UK in. But as I said, nothing is free, and the UK has been receiving more than giving.

they will blame brexit at this present time in life

You are free to think so and convince others if you can. But, then let them all have a final say and see if you have succeeded. Unless you think that the result is not going to be of your liking of course.

Immigration has never been uncontrolled in the UK. London voted massively against brexit, so apparently Londoners do not agree with that.
Not "LONDONERS" really         more like IRAQ AFRICA all rolled into one ..

Only British could vote in the referendum. Only Londoners could vote in London. Perhaps your idea of what British people are is outdated, roughly by half a century+.


. BTW, are you talking about illegal immigrants, or just immigrants?

EU immigrants are all legal by definition as things stand now.

Illegal immigration may and does cause problems if is not dealt with correctly.



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October 22, 2018, 06:07:42 PM
 #39

In 1990 people in my coutry decided to leave Yugoslavia. On the referendum 88.5% of all voters (94.8% of those participating) voted for independence. In 2003 people in my country decided to join the EU. 90% of those who voted were in favor of joining the EU with 60% appearing for the vote. If I recall corectly on the Brexit referendum, around 52% voted to leave the EU and about 70% of eligible voters voted. Such an important decision, such a divided country.

Yet I don't think there is way back. The process has been set in motion, it is not up to UK to reverse it. I can't even imagine a politician in entire UK to pull the brake. It has been decided, it will be done.
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