Capitalism vs. Socialism - Make your argument here.

[coins4commies]

And how do you prevent big companies to use their money as leverage and lobby to corrupt your government and create regulations in their favor? :/

With representative democracy, socialism or capitalism is all the same. It leads to concentrate the power in few hands, them being corporations in capitalism and government members in socialism.

The end doesn't change, though capitalism takes longer I'd say.

Notice that the common factor in all the different systems you're talking about is state power. The state, and the corruption it attracts, is the problem, not capitalism or communism.

The inefficiencies created by bureaucratic bloat are destructive to any system as well.
The argument for Capitalism is in the results we are experiencing in quality of life right now.

"We" being the top few percent of the people on the planet.

[Balthazar]

Socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.
Capitalism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.

Neither of these approaches is acceptable, and neither of them can exist without oppression.

[mOgliE]

Socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.
Capitalism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.

You understand that lazyness has nothing to do with both systems?

Communism didn't fail because people were lazy, it failed because it became a dictatorship. Capitalism isn't failing because people are lazy, it is failing because in his very basic idea it will always lead to an increase of inequality. And when growth is no longer there to compensate those inequalities, it becomes pure theft.

Lazyness is a simplistic stupid myth of the typical old right winger trying to claim that young people and hippies are lazy assholes...

[Jet Cash]

I haven't read all of this thread, but has anybody pointed out that you can't have capitalism without capital? The US has lost most of it capital - it has gone to foreign investors and into the overseas trusts set up in tax havens. Most of the national assets have been removed from the country, and replaced with a massive debt mountain. This has turned the US into a communist country ruled by an unelected politbureau, and it is well underway with creating slavery in its population, and the forced acquisition of countries with a different political structure, and assets that are worth stealing.

[Balthazar]

Communism didn't fail because people were lazy, it failed because it became a dictatorship.

It failed because the government decided to solve all everyday issues by simply printing unbacked money. Since 1960s, the USSR council of ministers practiced a massive subsidizing of the economy through limitless enlargement of its debt to central bank.

Much like the US government is doing right now.

Lazyness is a simplistic stupid myth of the typical old right winger trying to claim that young people and hippies are lazy assholes...

Nope, the lazyness is real. Just think about that: why bother doing anything when you can borrow some trillion from the central bank.
Two systems with different agenda but plagued by the same practice.

[Balthazar]

It doesn't whether you have a "President of the US" or "Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR". As well it doesn't matter how many political parties do you have. Because borrowing money from the central bank  is independent of such irrelevant things.

In fact, it is always like taking a cocaine dose: you have a short euphoria and sense that you can quit this in any moment. But in practise you're getting loans again and again, until you're coming to getting loans just to pay interest for your previous loans.

[KingScorpio]

Socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.
Capitalism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.

Neither of these approaches is acceptable, and neither of them can exist without oppression.

capitalism also doesnt, work because no one wants to work for the money of an obvious scammer,

in socialism there is also capitalism, dont worry. its usually an even worse one.

people become imprisioned slaves, and the society is just a matter of time till there will be a revolution

[KingScorpio]

It doesn't whether you have a "President of the US" or "Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR". As well it doesn't matter how many political parties do you have. Because borrowing money from the central bank  is independent of such irrelevant things.

In fact, it is always like taking a cocaine dose: you have a short euphoria and sense that you can quit this in any moment. But in practise you're getting loans again and again, until you're coming to getting loans just to pay interest for your previous loans.

well said,

its always the same the bank is unloading risk on you, those that are the bank, have the least risks, they usually are free to work, and they enrich themselves and blame to others for their poverty, while abusing them as money earning cattle.

its the same in the usa (fighting against poverty) as in the ussr (fighting for social justice and against abuse)

regards

[_Miracle]

"We" being the top few percent of the people on the planet.

No "WE" being the individual in the current collective of humanity.
Our quality of life, the experience you and we all are having now as opposed to 500 years ago.

Capitalism has created this---in fact not theory.
It has been a bottom up creation of opportunity for the individual human being.
Bezos didn't start out as a billionaire--- he sold books out of his garage.

Has it become destructive for us to value money over people? YES
Personally I think it's perverse for us not to hold corporations criminally accountable when there actions have sociopathic results...and they knew it.
These are things we can address together right now.

Socialism doesn't work because of human nature, maybe in small scale ventures, for a time, until: two legs good four legs baaaaa'aad.
Even if we adopted socialism world wide tomorrow, people might feel better for a couple generations and then?

If we're going to fantasize about a utopian society, why not aim for the Star Trek model?
No one is ever scrambling for change for a cup of coffee or worried about whether to pay for their electricity or food.

[coins4commies]

No "WE" being the individual in the current collective of humanity.
Our quality of life, the experience you and we all are having now as opposed to 500 years ago.

Its really absurd to contribute every human advancement in the last 500 years to capitalism.  Are you sure they would have never happened without capitalism?  Could they not happen in a communist world?  Were most of the biggest advancements a product of private or public sector?  Did the soviet union not contribute to those advancements?  Science is unique to capitalism?

Capitalism has created this---in fact not theory.
It has been a bottom up creation of opportunity for the individual human being.
Bezos didn't start out as a billionaire--- he sold books out of his garage.

.
Its complete capitalist dogma.  Bezos didn't become a billionaire by selling books out of his garage...Those would have been some expensive books...It is not possible to become a billionaire from your own labor. 

Socialism doesn't work because of human nature, maybe in small scale ventures, for a time, until: two legs good four legs baaaaa'aad.
Even if we adopted socialism world wide tomorrow, people might feel better for a couple generations and then?

If we're going to fantasize about a utopian society, why not aim for the Star Trek model?
No one is ever scrambling for change for a cup of coffee or worried about whether to pay for their electricity or food.

We are aiming for the star trek model.  Thats communism.  Socialism is what gets us there.

[_Miracle]

Its really absurd to contribute every human advancement in the last 500 years to capitalism.  

It would be absurd to say that, that's why I didn't: it was a point of reference to a different time----don't try to change my words to fit your argument

Are you sure they would have never happened without capitalism?


                                                           Not sure whether they would have or not but they didn't.


Could they not happen in a communist world?  

                                                                           -------Maybe

Science is unique to capitalism?

                                                                               Never said that

Capitalism has created this---in fact not theory.
It has been a bottom up creation of opportunity for the individual human being.
Bezos didn't start out as a billionaire--- he sold books out of his garage.

            ----that's what I said

Its complete capitalist dogma.  Bezos didn't become a billionaire by selling books out of his garage...Those would have been some expensive books...It is not possible to become a billionaire from your own labor.

 
                                                                                                     Ok

Socialism doesn't work because of human nature, maybe in small scale ventures, for a time, until: two legs good four legs baaaaa'aad.
Even if we adopted socialism world wide tomorrow, people might feel better for a couple generations and then?

If we're going to fantasize about a utopian society, why not aim for the Star Trek model?
No one is ever scrambling for change for a cup of coffee or worried about whether to pay for their electricity or food.

We are aiming for the star trek model.  Thats communism.  Socialism is what gets us there.

 HuffPost
"The United Federation of Planets in Star Trek is mostly libertarian-socialist, post-scarcity economy."
Not sure I agree with HuffPost's analogy but it isn't a social structure that we are currently living anywhere.

I agree with "post-scarcity economy"

[_Miracle]

Oh dear god
I really do have to learn to quote properly

[mOgliE]

Nope, the lazyness is real. Just think about that: why bother doing anything when you can borrow some trillion from the central bank.
Two systems with different agenda but plagued by the same practice.

This is SO ABSURD and basically stupid that I can't really see what to answer.
It's like a child saying "The sky is blue so that birds can swim inside". I mean it's wrong on so many levels you can hardly explain him.

Lazyness means not wanting to actually do anything. Not wanting to work in the general and broad sense of the term.

You do understand that people in USSR weren't especially lazy and that people currently abusing the capitalistic system or the people trying to survive in it aren't especially lazy neither?

[Balthazar]

Nope, the lazyness is real. Just think about that: why bother doing anything when you can borrow some trillion from the central bank.
Two systems with different agenda but plagued by the same practice.

This is SO ABSURD and basically stupid that I can't really see what to answer.
It's like a child saying "The sky is blue so that birds can swim inside". I mean it's wrong on so many levels you can hardly explain him.

Lazyness means not wanting to actually do anything. Not wanting to work in the general and broad sense of the term.

You do understand that people in USSR weren't especially lazy and that people currently abusing the capitalistic system or the people trying to survive in it aren't especially lazy neither?

If there is no lazyness then how to explain the gazillion public debt which we're observing now?
After that I would like to see your ideas why the USSR government borrowed a ton of money from the central bank, while experts were opposing such practice and claimed that it leads to cataclysmic collapse.

[mOgliE]

If there is no lazyness then how to explain the gazillion public debt which we're observing now?
After that I would like to see your ideas why the USSR government borrowed a ton of money from the central bank, while experts were opposing such practice and claimed that it leads to cataclysmic collapse.

Greed of the people currently in power and different interest from yours. Why would the public debt be a problem for anyone but the public? Governments have no reason to reduce this debt that allows them to make harder policies, steer taxes to there pockets and increase the influence of their businesses.
Just give me a reason for them to NOT increase the debt.

USSR mismanagement is far too wide to give a precise answer here, what period do you talk about?

[KingScorpio]

Socialism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.
Capitalism doesn't work, because people are lazy and abusing the system.

You understand that lazyness has nothing to do with both systems?

Communism didn't fail because people were lazy, it failed because it became a dictatorship. Capitalism isn't failing because people are lazy, it is failing because in his very basic idea it will always lead to an increase of inequality. And when growth is no longer there to compensate those inequalities, it becomes pure theft.

Lazyness is a simplistic stupid myth of the typical old right winger trying to claim that young people and hippies are lazy assholes...

capitalism is also a dictatorship actually.

through a financial cartel

[dippididodaday]

Oh dear god
I really do have to learn to quote properly

Please stick to the topic under discussion...

Its complete capitalist dogma.  Bezos didn't become a billionaire by selling books out of his garage...Those would have been some expensive books...It is not possible to become a billionaire from your own labor.

 
                                                                                                     Ok

...for instance, take note neither Bezos, the garage-book seller, nor Bezos the CEO and president of Amazon could have been a billionaire using only his own labor.

[TECSHARE]

Oh dear god
I really do have to learn to quote properly

Please stick to the topic under discussion...

Its complete capitalist dogma.  Bezos didn't become a billionaire by selling books out of his garage...Those would have been some expensive books...It is not possible to become a billionaire from your own labor.

 
                                                                                                     Ok

...for instance, take note neither Bezos, the garage-book seller, nor Bezos the CEO and president of Amazon could have been a billionaire using only his own labor.

And you don't eat without the labor of others. What is your point?

[_Miracle]

Oh dear god
I really do have to learn to quote properly

Please stick to the topic under discussion...

Its complete capitalist dogma.  Bezos didn't become a billionaire by selling books out of his garage...Those would have been some expensive books...It is not possible to become a billionaire from your own labor.

 
                                                                                                     Ok

...for instance, take note neither Bezos, the garage-book seller, nor Bezos the CEO and president of Amazon could have been a billionaire using only his own labor.

                                                "Capitalism vs. Socialism - Make your argument here."  <---------topic

I've made my argument for capitalism clearly --- I'm not interested in reiterating for you: as you're trying to be rude,  you didn't take the time to read the thread and you don't seem to have any ideas of depth to add or conversate about.


If you think you have a point of your own to make then make one.

[dippididodaday]

...If you think you have a point of your own to make then make one.

It is quite obvious to me that this so called capitalism is nothing more than a system of hocus pocus, devised many years ago by self acclaimed  argle-bargle nitwits.