Unfair to Jr.Members

[tranthidung]

If your suggestion implemented in the future, I believe that we will witness a new massive wave of demoted higher-ranked users.
Anyway, I support your ideas.

jr. member - 1 merit,
member - 11 merits,
full member - 101 merits,
senior member - 251 merits,
hero member - 501 merits,
legendary - 1001 merits

Yeah, it is really fun to see higher-ranked users, who have not earned any merit more than 9 months after the launch of merit sytem, to be demoted.

I think it would be really FUN to see some high ranked users fighting to "EARN" their first merit ever ;-)

In my another post, I already discussed about the fact that there are so many higher-ranked users who can not earn merits.
That's one of the most ridiculous facts.

[Merit Analysis] Users ranked Sr. Member & up that have not earned any merit
Moreover, there are lots of Hero and Ledgendary have not earned any merit.

The percentage of users at Member, Full Member, Senior Member, Hero, and Ledgendary have not earned any merits till October of 2018 are 83%, 82.6%, 79.8%, 73.3%, and 47.2%, respectively. Amongst all ranks, Ledgendary is a outstanding one with nearly 47% of them have not received any merit. Ranks from Member to Senior Member (even with Hero Member) are almost the same.
Detailed statistics given below.

Rank	number of users	number of users       received at least 1 merit	number of users       with who didn’t earn any merit
Member	27 918	4 744 (17%)	23 174  (83%)
Full Member	18 181	3 173 (17,45%)	15 008  (82,55%)
Sr. Member	9 016	1 818 (20,16%)	7 198  (79,84%)
Hero Member	4 143	1 105 (26,67%)	3 038  (73,33%)
Legendary	2 145	1 133 (52,82%)	1 012  (47,18%)

~
I don't want to fall into arguments there, but it's something like unfair system, even for lower-ranks, of course above Junior Member rank.
Do you agree at this point?
How fair the forum and merit system, rank system are if someone started as a Newbie and get 100 merits to rank up to Full Member rank. In another case, someone who is a Full Member and will not get any merit over the next one year, will be able to stay at Full member, forever.
It will become more clearly unfair for higher ranks, such as Senior, Hero and Ledgendary ranks.

Outside the forum, in real life, in some nations, there are strict requirements on professors, associate professors that they have to satisfy strict criteria, which require them to have new contribution, new project, new published scientific articles during speficic period in order to be as Professors / Associate professors. If they can satisfy those criteria, they will be demoted (as Junior Member rank witnessed weeks ago in the forum).

[xfactor13]

jr. member - 1 merit,
member - 11 merits,
full member - 101 merits,
senior member - 251 merits,
hero member - 501 merits,
legendary - 1001 merits

If we are talking about fairness, then we can say that it is fair to implement the same rule to the high ranked members - requiring them to earn at least a single merit to maintain their rank and status.

The table below shows that low-ranked members are not the only spammers in this forum but there are only high-ranked members.  Sadly, the merit system can only target new accounts and cannot affect the old spammer accounts.

[Merit Analysis] Users ranked Sr. Member & up that have not earned any merit
Moreover, there are lots of Hero and Ledgendary have not earned any merit.

The percentage of users at Member, Full Member, Senior Member, Hero, and Ledgendary have not earned any merits till October of 2018 are 83%, 82.6%, 79.8%, 73.3%, and 47.2%, respectively. Amongst all ranks, Ledgendary is a outstanding one with nearly 47% of them have not received any merit. Ranks from Member to Senior Member (even with Hero Member) are almost the same.
Detailed statistics given below.

Rank	number of users	number of users       received at least 1 merit	number of users       with who didn’t earn any merit
Member	27 918	4 744 (17%)	23 174  (83%)
Full Member	18 181	3 173 (17,45%)	15 008  (82,55%)
Sr. Member	9 016	1 818 (20,16%)	7 198  (79,84%)
Hero Member	4 143	1 105 (26,67%)	3 038  (73,33%)
Legendary	2 145	1 133 (52,82%)	1 012  (47,18%)

~
I don't want to fall into arguments there, but it's something like unfair system, even for lower-ranks, of course above Junior Member rank.
Do you agree at this point?
How fair the forum and merit system, rank system are if someone started as a Newbie and get 100 merits to rank up to Full Member rank. In another case, someone who is a Full Member and will not get any merit over the next one year, will be able to stay at Full member, forever.
It will become more clearly unfair for higher ranks, such as Senior, Hero and Ledgendary ranks.

Outside the forum, in real life, in some nations, there are strict requirements on professors, associate professors that they have to satisfy strict criteria, which require them to have new contribution, new project, new published scientific articles during speficic period in order to be as Professors / Associate professors. If they can satisfy those criteria, they will be demoted (as Junior Member rank witnessed weeks ago in the forum).

The merit system discussion always target the spammers having low ranked account.  And your suggestion seems to address the issue of spammers having high-ranked account.  I hope theymos will consider this one.

Given the table above, assuming that the percentage represents members who only spam and cannot earn even a single merit since inception of the merit system, then almost half of the Legendary rank are spammers.  I think this number is alarming if we are really dedicated to lessen the number of spammers in this forum.

[darklus123]

Because most of the spamming problem starts from newbie and jr.members.

In my perspective if you were still jr.member before the 1 merit system happens you should have to really go back to newbie and prove something that atleast your worth it.

Earning 1 merit is not that hard tho. Plus it is still being highly abvious

[tranthidung]

Hi XFactor,
There are three possible theories on someone who have not earned any merit more than 9 months till the launch day of merit system:
- They are spammers. During the 9-month period, they kept posting/ spamming; and have not contributed anything deserves merits.
- They have been totally inactive during the 9-month period.
- They are service providers, such as mining pools, Escrow services, bounty managers, etc. Those sort of users mostly hard to get merits.

So, the figures above are only for reference. We need to have a forensic analysis with a bit deeper analysis to be able to really discover the facts.

[cryptovigi]

...
Given the table above, assuming that the percentage represents members who only spam and cannot earn even a single merit since inception of the merit system, then almost half of the Legendary rank are spammers.  I think this number is alarming if we are really dedicated to lessen the number of spammers in this forum.
...

You don't have to explain to me the table which I created myself ;-)

Unfortunetly you can't say literally that 47% of Legendary are spammers - in fact even I who created this calculation don't know that.  It's because set of data I used for preparing this table. In group of Legendary who didn't get any merit there are all Legendary whose account haven't beed deleted until also a group of users who make their rank years ago and then left the forum or maybe came here only sometimes to have some reading (I have no idea how many of them did this but for sure there are some - according to @mazdafunsun 250 of them wasn't active this year - for sure until 15 August https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4901670.0;all), there are also a group of people who wrote some posts which didn't deserved merits but you couldn't call them spam as well (no one has 100% merited posts).

So the purpose of my calculations was only to show how many ranked users didn't earn any merit at all but I wouldn't never say that all of them are spammers

....
So, the figures above are only for reference. We need to have a forensic analysis with a bit deeper analysis to be able to really discover the facts.
...

Agree!!!

...
The merit system discussion always target the spammers having low ranked account.  And your suggestion seems to address the issue of spammers having high-ranked account.  I hope theymos will consider this one.
...

You've right since today it targets only low ranked users but except numbers you have remember the scale - there are 50k-60k ranked users without merit and 1.500.000 - 2.000.000 low ranked users (newbies and jr.) without merit. So I have to agree that this group is much more important from the spam's point of view...

however, I didn't change my previous mind at all and stil claim that "it would be really FUN to see some high ranked users fighting to "EARN" their first merit ever ;-) "

[bitart]

Unfair... not likely... but let's discuss...
I have opened a topic in the Beginner section to help newbies (or demoted jr.s) to earn 1 merit, I've only asked to provide 5 meritable posts from the Bitcoin section, but there were only 2 (!!!!!) applicants in three weeks time...
This clearly means for me that
1. Newbies or demoted Jr.s are not posting in the Bitcoin section but in the Off topic or in the Alt section, or
2. Newbies don't need this kind of help because they can earn the necessary 1 merit for themselves somehow, or
3. They just don't care and they only report their social media participation here, and they don't need that single merit at all, or
4. etc....
So to summarize, merit system works, that's all

[Dig Bicks]

ya man this is some real bullshit up in here. Yall gonna make me lose my mind.

I shoulda been member rank by now.  Jews dont wanna hand out the merits.

[MagicSmoker]

ya man this is some real bullshit up in here. Yall gonna make me lose my mind.

I shoulda been member rank by now.  Jews dont wanna hand out the merits.

You have 1 measly merit and you already signed up for one of the shittiest shitcoin sig campaigns around. Please tell me more about your first world problems vis-a-vis merit.

[xfactor13]

Hi XFactor,
There are three possible theories on someone who have not earned any merit more than 9 months till the launch day of merit system:
- They are spammers. During the 9-month period, they kept posting/ spamming; and have not contributed anything deserves merits.
- They have been totally inactive during the 9-month period.
- They are service providers, such as mining pools, Escrow services, bounty managers, etc. Those sort of users mostly hard to get merits.

So, the figures above are only for reference. We need to have a forensic analysis with a bit deeper analysis to be able to really discover the facts.

Given the data gathered in the above initial figures, I also think there we need further research on this part.

The data is really alarming (almost half of the legendary not getting a single merit for 9 months?).

regarding your theories
1. If this will be proven, implementing a rule that will give a certain period of time for the high-ranked members to gain a certain number of merit for them not to be demoted is advisable;
2. If they are inactive for the past 9-month, the system/management can pinpoint them and not apply the rule to them? or maybe we can apply on the rule upon their login again?
3. If they are service providers, then we need another exception on them.  But if they are part of this forum and being part of the discussion, it is impossible for them not to gain a single merit for 9 months.  It just means that they are just shitposting.

[blackssmith2018]

First off, I agree with the implementation of 1 Merit for Jr. Members, but I find it unfair that those who were already Jr.Members were demoted to Newbie again, it's just unfair, they should have received 1 Merit from the System automatically and so only new members would be needed to get 1 Merit. When merit was implemented everyone automatically received Merit based on activity, so why is it now different?

You have a point but to against the merit system is not right because merit system is the best way to kill the fake account or multi-account we need to work hard to gain our merit if your account is legit. Because of most of the time so many multi-account right now that's the only way go avoid spammer or fake account.

[kawetsriyanto]

Sometimes to have a better achievement, we must do extreme changes.
I believe the requirement for 1 merit to be a Junior rank is fair for everyone.
Like @cryptovigi said all ranks rise 1 merit right now.

jr. member - 1 merit,
member - 11 merits,
full member - 101 merits,
senior member - 251 merits,
hero member - 501 merits,
legendary - 1001 merits

Basically, If we want to try improving our selves, I think it is not difficult to make qualities posts. And 1 Merit is not difficult to get If we do many efforts. 

To remember:
Before the implementation of the new regulation, I am sure Theymos realize a big problem related to spam posts. I think Theymos applied it based on many considerations. And applying the regulation is the best way to solve it. 

[darklus123]

Unfair... not likely... but let's discuss...
I have opened a topic in the Beginner section to help newbies (or demoted jr.s) to earn 1 merit, I've only asked to provide 5 meritable posts from the Bitcoin section, but there were only 2 (!!!!!) applicants in three weeks time...
This clearly means for me that
1. Newbies or demoted Jr.s are not posting in the Bitcoin section but in the Off topic or in the Alt section, or
2. Newbies don't need this kind of help because they can earn the necessary 1 merit for themselves somehow, or
3. They just don't care and they only report their social media participation here, and they don't need that single merit at all, or
4. etc....
So to summarize, merit system works, that's all

4 out of 4. As been stated always that most of them are not here to contribute but to suck out. I hope someday theymos would realize that and will take necessary action for bountry threads. Maybe atleast a full member or higher can only participate with bounty campaigns. Plus a certain necessary merits are also required, so that it will be more cleaner and I also do not believe that we can rely that one to bounty managers cause some of those are also suckers.

[suchmoon]

RIP OP:

Autoban user: N/A in topic #0 by member #1358498

[deguzmanwacky]

When merit was implemented everyone automatically received Merit based on activity, so why is it now different?

Theymos obviously knows where the spamming problem comes from, which is why he made the change the way he did.  It might not seem fair to those junior members who got busted back down to noob status, but all they have to do is earn one single merit to move back up in rank.  I would also add that the only folks who really care about how unfair it seems are the ones concerned solely with how much advertising they can put in their signature space. 

In any case, the change was already made.  Making new threads bitching about it isn't going to somehow change Theymos's mind and might actually put you on people's ignore list.  The whining started probably within the first hour after Jr. Members with no merit went back to Newbie, and it's time for it to stop. 

Not sure what OP is complaining about anyway, since he earned 1 merit and has a copper membership.  Makes me wonder how many alt accounts he's in control of.

i just saw a legendary member that has a 90% shitpost in their post history and the posts were incredibly worthless than what newbies post here

[suchmoon]

i just saw a legendary member that has a 90% shitpost in their post history and the posts were incredibly worthless than what newbies post here

Report the posts.

Post the link to the profile so that others could pitch in.

[Direwolve735]

I so often come across the word "unfair", coming from newbies, that I don’t even want to prove anything, explain, and protect the necessary innovations.


If peple don`t want to hear you, then probably better to just agree.


Some people complain for whining, and not to find a solution.

[Crypto Girl]

RIP OP:

Autoban user: N/A in topic #0 by member #1358498

What a waste of Copper Membership for him

Seriously, Theymos should increase the copper membership fee.
Just forgive OP for being a butthurt translator and merit ruined his living and force to pay for copper membership fee.  

[seoincorporation]

First off, I agree with the implementation of 1 Merit for Jr. Members, but I find it unfair that those who were already Jr.Members were demoted to Newbie again, it's just unfair, they should have received 1 Merit from the System automatically and so only new members would be needed to get 1 Merit. When merit was implemented everyone automatically received Merit based on activity, so why is it now different?

What is really unfair is all the spam generated by newbies. Is really easy for someone to open new accounts and post some trash like an ICO promotion or nonsense posts. If newbies were demoted then it was because the forum is done will all that spam and the only option was to make a drastic move.

To get 1 merit isn't really hard at all, just bring some quality info and merits will come alone.

[manfredmann]

What is really unfair is all the spam generated by newbies. Is really easy for someone to open new accounts and post some trash like an ICO promotion or nonsense posts. If newbies were demoted then it was because the forum is done will all that spam and the only option was to make a drastic move.

To get 1 merit isn't really hard at all, just bring some quality info and merits will come alone.

I saw some newbie or demoted jr. member that has relatively good post. But, they were in the super mega threads which is possible to be seen by mods and also it is unlikely to get for there are many post out there in a single thread compare to this section which thread has only 1 or single page.

I know merit is hard to get but it doesn't mean that one could not get it. It is just a matter of hard work on doing quality posts. It is also a big help on studying merited posts of those higher ranks and you can start those good poster here in this section.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The table below shows that low-ranked members are not the only spammers in this forum but there are only high-ranked members.  Sadly, the merit system can only target new accounts and cannot affect the old spammer accounts.

I think many high-ranked, older accounts are inactive and that might account for why they haven't earned any merits.  That data doesn't take into account how active members are, and I know there are a lot of members who made it to Hero and Legendary, and they simply don't post much anymore.

And some older members like gameristo haven't earned any merits because they're here just to buy bitcoin.  I would imagine there are examples of similar cases with the regulars in the Collectibles section, although I think they do give each other merits there.

Whatever the numbers say, I see it with my own eyes every time I read posts here that the majority of shitposts are from low-ranked members.  There's been a serious influx of new members who heard it's easy to make money on the forum, and that's only happened in the last couple of years since all of these ICO bounties started.  Some of them made it to higher ranks before the merit system was implemented, but they're usually not Sr. Members or above.  They're not earning merits, just like the rest of the bounty spammers aren't.

I'm trying to find Newbie and Jr. Members to give merits to, but man....it's rare to find posts worthy of merit by the lower-ranked peeps.  I actually get a feeling of accomplishment when I do finally come across a good post made by one of them.  It's almost like an Easter egg hunt, except there are only 10 eggs hidden in an area the size of Australia.  Crazy but true.