Society's misguided fear of hydrogen; a result of oil corporation?

[bluefirecorp_]

I like how all of a sudden, idiots think nitrogen is the exact same chemical as hydrogen.

Let's base all the fears of previous gas failures on hydrogen because there's other gases that had what feasibly could be similar issues.

So much misguided fear in today's society; such sad.

I used nitrogen as an example in my post, because its safe. My point was that a non reactive inert gas at 10,000 PSI is still a gas at 10,000 PSI. All of those movie scenes you see of people shooting bullets at car's fuel tanks and them blowing up is done with explosives, it doesn't actually work that way. If you shoot a bullet at a 10,000 PSI tank, there are going to be issues. Car crashes don't often cause fuel fires, a crash with a pressurized tank on board would probably cause the entire car to turn into shrapnel.

Pressurized containers are spooky when you consider that there are potential major forces that could be applied. I don't know if a fender bender would cause your car to explode, but a highway speed crash very well could, I might need to look into that. Just imagine the consequences of keeping a scuba tank in your car with you at all times. 12 gallons of gasoline or whatever a typical car holds isn't all that dangerous. If it ignites, the car is going to be engulfed in flames. Blow a hydrogen tank, and I'd be significantly more dangerous than an IED.

10000 PSI of the chemical matter actually really matters when you shoot the tank.


People aren't reading links, i'm pretty much ready to lock this shit because people are too retarded to actually LOOK at the research done with hydrogen. they broadcast their fears (thanks oil corps).

It's a fucking losing battle against the morons.
You literally cannot say "10000 psi tank of whatever == the same no matter what".

The false equivalency is just unwarranted fear mongering.

[SaltySpitoon]

10000 PSI of the chemical matter actually really matters when you shoot the tank.

You literally cannot say "10000 psi tank of whatever == the same no matter what".

The false equivalency is just unwarranted fear mongering.

PSI is a measure of force per unit area. 10,000 PSI of air and 10,000 PSI of nitroglycerin have the same potential energy from the pressure. There is additional chemical energy, but we are just talking about the pressure.

[bluefirecorp_]

10000 PSI of the chemical matter actually really matters when you shoot the tank.

You literally cannot say "10000 psi tank of whatever == the same no matter what".

The false equivalency is just unwarranted fear mongering.

PSI is a measure of force per unit area. 10,000 PSI of air and 10,000 PSI of nitroglycerin have the same potential energy from the pressure. There is additional chemical energy, but we are just talking about the pressure.

Each chemical escapes different. Each compound has different amounts of volumes. It's not just 'OH! LOOK DANGEROUS COMPRESSION ALL EXPLODES DA SAME, HERP DERP'

You need to stop the false equivalency and irrelevancy.

[SaltySpitoon]

Each chemical escapes different. Each compound has different amounts of volumes. It's not just 'OH! LOOK DANGEROUS COMPRESSION ALL EXPLODES DA SAME, HERP DERP'

You need to stop the false equivalency and irrelevancy.

Lets take a step back and make sure there are no misunderstandings here. Cars use the chemical potential energy from the combustion of gasoline to create kinetic energy for the car to move. The whole point of a fuel source, is to convert potential energy into kinetic energy. There is chemical potential energy, pneumatic potential energy, electrical potential energy, etc. To make Hydrogen a feasible fuel source, it needs to be compressed and kept under high pressure. That means you need to keep a pressurized fuel source in your vehicle in order to use hydrogen as fuel. As a basic principal, the pressurized fuel will have two energy components to it. 1) The potential energy from the pressurized tank, and 2) the chemical potential energy from the fuel.

We are saying that the potential energy just from the pressure is a hazard when you start applying potential structural damage, such as car accidents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWmONHipVo  < 300 PSI

[bluefirecorp_]

Each chemical escapes different. Each compound has different amounts of volumes. It's not just 'OH! LOOK DANGEROUS COMPRESSION ALL EXPLODES DA SAME, HERP DERP'

You need to stop the false equivalency and irrelevancy.

Lets take a step back and make sure there are no misunderstandings here. Cars use the chemical potential energy from the combustion of gasoline to create kinetic energy for the car to move. The whole point of a fuel source, is to convert potential energy into kinetic energy. There is chemical potential energy, pneumatic potential energy, electrical potential energy, etc. To make Hydrogen a feasible fuel source, it needs to be compressed and kept under high pressure. That means you need to keep a pressurized fuel source in your vehicle in order to use hydrogen as fuel. As a basic principal, the pressurized fuel will have two energy components to it. 1) The potential energy from the pressurized tank, and 2) the chemical potential energy from the fuel.

We are saying that the potential energy just from the pressure is a hazard when you start applying potential structural damage, such as car accidents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGWmONHipVo

Look up hydrogen explosions; find me a link that shows compressed hydrogen exploding similar to LNG or other more dangerous things like gasoline. You can't because it simply doesn't work that way.

Hydrogen just doesn't explode the same way that OTHER high pressure gases explode. They're not even remotely relevant here, but people are so stupid they can't seem to separate the concept of 'UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT GASES'.

[SaltySpitoon]

Look up hydrogen explosions; find me a link that shows compressed hydrogen exploding similar to LNG or other more dangerous things like gasoline. You can't because it simply doesn't work that way

It doesn't matter if its hydrogen or nitrogen, or metal ball bearings. Pressure is pressure. Its not a matter of it being hydrogen, its a matter of hydrogen fuel requiring a highly pressurized container. If structural damage occurs to a highly pressurized container, explosive decompression occurs. The water heater video from Mythbusters is just pressurized water, yet it still explodes when the pressure goes higher than what the container can handle.

[bluefirecorp_]

Look up hydrogen explosions; find me a link that shows compressed hydrogen exploding similar to LNG or other more dangerous things like gasoline. You can't because it simply doesn't work that way

It doesn't matter if its hydrogen or nitrogen, or metal ball bearings. Pressure is pressure. Its not a matter of it being hydrogen, its a matter of hydrogen fuel requiring a highly pressurized container. If structural damage occurs to a highly pressurized container, explosive decompression occurs. The water heater video from Mythbusters is just pressurized water, yet it still explodes when the pressure goes higher than what the container can handle.

http://www.hyresponse.eu/files/Lectures/Safety_of_hydrogen_storage_notes.pdf

*facepalms*

I just don't know what to tell you. You need to take a physics class mate.

[SaltySpitoon]

http://www.hyresponse.eu/files/Lectures/Safety_of_hydrogen_storage_notes.pdf

*facepalms*

I just don't know what to tell you. You need to take a physics class mate.

I've had plenty. I've said nothing incorrect. We are disagreeing on something very fundamental, and I'm not sure why. We aren't considering hydrogen at all, just compressed gas cylinders.

[bluefirecorp_]

http://www.hyresponse.eu/files/Lectures/Safety_of_hydrogen_storage_notes.pdf

*facepalms*

I just don't know what to tell you. You need to take a physics class mate.

I've had plenty. I've said nothing incorrect. We are disagreeing on something very fundamental, and I'm not sure why.

I don't think you're reading my links or responses which is the problem. You're saying 'OH NO! PRESSURE == BAD NO MATTER WHAT' and I'm trying to tell you; the way hydrogen escapes mitigates those risks.

'BUT LE PRESSURE = BADDDDD' -- wtf, listen to me.... HYDROGEN PROPERTIES MITIGATE RISKS BETTER THAN OTHER CHEMICALS.

'BUT THEY'RE ALL THE SAMEEEEEEEE' wtf... i give up with you.

[SaltySpitoon]

Energy is energy, you can disregard the contents. Hydrogen is not a magic substance that defies the laws of physics. Tell me the PSI and the volume of the tank, and I can tell you exactly how many joules of energy are stored there. That potential energy can be converted to kinetic energy, and the kinetic energy is what causes problems.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to word it in caps and sarcasm, but without the sarcasm, you are correct.

Scuba Tank video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyINNUaXa8Q
More!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_nVD3fkIs

Full of air, not an explosive chemical. Unless you are saying that if that scuba tank was full of hydrogen, and someone popped the top off, all of the hydrogen would just stay inside?

[TECSHARE]

A few real world examples so you can wrap your head around what we are dealing with here...


https://youtu.be/3_El-4k7xds?t=168

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jyDdeUCihc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drrK3ETymwc


WARNING this one is very graphic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdRwX12XE0A

[Spendulus]

...

I don't think you're reading my links ....

Three separate people with real world experience (some of it bad and some of it very bad) are trying to tell you things.

Your links-links totally don't matter.

This is lie first day on the job; you WILL wear safety glasses, steel toe boots and helmet, etc.

[TECSHARE]

Some more extreme examples...

Horrifying Bleve Explosions Around The World | Explosions Gone Wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuPVEsQaGB0

[Spendulus]

10000 PSI of the chemical matter actually really matters when you shoot the tank.

You literally cannot say "10000 psi tank of whatever == the same no matter what".

The false equivalency is just unwarranted fear mongering.

PSI is a measure of force per unit area. 10,000 PSI of air and 10,000 PSI of nitroglycerin have the same potential energy from the pressure. There is additional chemical energy, but we are just talking about the pressure.

Blue is a bit right but in the reverse of what he believes.

Assume that simultaneously, a 10,000psi tank of N2 and a tank of H2 fail.

When 10,000 PSI of a gas is free to move out against 14.7 PSI, the momentum of the gas is the same regardless of what element it is. Smaller, lighter molecules accelerate and reach a higher terminal speed that larger molecules (example, N2=28 vs H2=2).

H2 uncombusted and released would be more destructive.

From Wikipedia.

The potential energy stored in an explosive material may, for example, be

chemical energy, such as nitroglycerin or grain dust

pressurized gas, such as a gas cylinder or aerosol can

nuclear energy, such as in the fissile isotopes uranium-235 and plutonium-239

Explosive materials may be categorized by the speed at which they expand. Materials that detonate (the front of the chemical reaction moves faster through the material than the speed of sound) are said to be "high explosives" and materials that deflagrate are said to be "low explosives".

The wave front from expanding (not exploding or "detonating") H2 is roughly 1200 meters per second, that's four times faster than a 45 caliber bullet.

Horrifying Bleve Explosions Around The World | Explosions Gone Wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuPVEsQaGB0

How would you like to be behind a hydrogen car that got into an accident in a tunnel?

[TECSHARE]

Everything wrong with hydrogen fuel for internal combustion engines | Auto Expert John Cadogan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu1v7d7-Wh0

[Spendulus]

Everything wrong with hydrogen fuel for internal combustion engines | Auto Expert John Cadogan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu1v7d7-Wh0

But I like hydrogens! Yes, I like hydrogens injected into ICE engines. Most of all when they are safely attached in chains until the moment their power is needed. Carbon makes a great carrier for those hydrogens. If we linked the carbon atoms together to form a chain, we could have hydrogens all around on that chain and it would be safe, right up until we wanted to combine it with Oxygen.

Wait...

Did I just invent gasoline?