PoW vs PoS- Proof-of-Stake Might be the Winner here (Save the Environment)

[Zin-Zang]

We have debated the same topic over and over again but the "POS proponents" have never given a suggestion which POS coin should "replace" Bitcoin.

Give us a suggestion of one POS coin that we should grant the originators perpetual power, and tell us why?

It may be a PoW coin that switches to PoS succeeds bitcoin,
or
it may be a PoS coin that was PoS from the beginning.

The MarketPlace will choose which PoS coin replaces Bitcoin and when, not a single individual.

FYI:
Your confusion about perpetual power shows your lack of understanding,
if a PoS Staker sells their coins, they lose staking power, they can not profit forever without making sure their stake stays competitive.
You confuse high inflation PoS coins like Sprouts Classic, with other low inflation PoS coin.
High Inflation PoS coins will destroy themselves by hyper inflation that crashes them out of every market including dodge coin.
All you have to do is watch spouts classic to see this unfolding or go study the effects of hyper inflation.
The Succeeding PoS coin will have a lower inflation rate that does not exceed their daily demand of new coins in the marketplace.
And the Daily demand will be determined by the marketplace.  

FYI2:
I find it funny, how you worry about a PoS staker having power , but could care less that you have zero power in your Bitcoin.
Unless you are running a warehouse full of asics , you are a slave at the whim of the ASICS Miners, completely dependent on them to maintain the block chain.
Which if being a slave is your preferred choice, you might as well stick with fiat and your government overlords.
People that want the freedom to confirm their own transactions without an overlord's oversight Choose Proof of Stake.

[philipma1957]

FTFY  

@Dr. Agon don't take it personally ,   PoS is better than PoW

PoW is more Shit than PoS

Proof of Work take prompts centralization, with more awful outcomes than PoS

.... BTW you did not quote this and could be accused of bing a plagrist...



...


** This is a Corrected Version of Dr. Agon Post from the previous page. (IMO) **
** Truthfulness added to correct Inaccuracies in the comparison of PoS & PoW.**

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

On BCT  I am considered a whale or a major player. I could tag you for making that statement and not retracting it.  I won't  but here is my link to the solar array I am involved with


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1369207.0

it is on an old horse pasture with zero trees killed off.

It has been fully paid off due to last years coin runup

we use zero batteries
we are grid tied -- we sell  excess power in the day and buy back power at night
Contrary to your ignorant statement our actions lower the prices of power for our neighbors.

We sell power at 4 cents and buy power at 15 cents  that 11 cents is profit for the power company so we help to  lower the power companies cost of production of power which in turn lowers the customers power cost.

So while  wait for you retraction of that statement

Why don't you say I fucked up  when I made that statement it actually was an example of me not phil being ignorant and egotistical.

Based on my 20 years on the internet you will blow it off  and not do that.
Which is why
A} the world sucks in general
B}  and someone like you will always be "right"

Good luck with you life and that POS is better then POW belief system.


BTW I do think BCI  with a hybrid POW_POS setup is good as the   best of both setups can be used as a superior fusion of ideas.


also from your statement


"In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

[Zin-Zang]

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

And you think Elite Mega Rich ASIC Miners care what you think?

The personal insult was removed as soon as I saw you used the word please,
if you bother to read the 1st page , you can see it was removed.

You however left your insult of PoS.

I felt no need to contact you directly , thinking you be smart enough to see it was removed.
My mistake.

*By the way the only copy of the insult is in your post, so delete your own post if you don't want to see it. *  

On BCT  I am considered a whale or a major player. I could tag you for making that statement and not retracting it.  I won't  but here is my link to the solar array I am involved with

Cute Threat toward me,

Sorry , I don't care if you are Theymos.

it is on an old horse pasture with zero trees killed off.

It has been fully paid off due to last years coin runup

we use zero batteries
we are grid tied -- we sell  excess power in the day and buy back power at night
Contrary to your ignorant statement our actions lower the prices of power for our neighbors.

We sell power at 4 cents and buy power at 15 cents  that 11 cents is profit for the power company so we help to  lower the power companies cost of production of power which in turn lowers the customers power cost.

Being fully green means you are not dependent on the Grid at all.
You are doing nothing more than offsetting your energy cost, which is what any business would do.

Your problem is this, those ASICS have to be replaced in a year or so and then you'll need more electricity so those solar panels will not offset your costs as much. NJ is actually a lousy place to be a miner , you be better off in an area with hydro electric and those prices are way better.
You be priced out of the ability to mine in a 2 or 3 years and then you done. PoW has no future for you if you can't keep up with the mega rich guys.
Falling into the increasing input cost hamster wheel is what destroys many farmers, PoW miners in your situation are on the same hamster wheel.

Good Luck you're going to need it.

[philipma1957]

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

And you think Elite Mega Rich ASIC Miners care what you think?

The personal insult was removed as soon as I saw you used the word please,
if you bother to read the 1st page , you can see it was removed.

You however left your insult of PoS.

I felt no need to contact you directly , thinking you be smart enough to see it was removed.
My mistake.

*By the way the only copy of the insult is in your post, so delete your own post if you don't want to see it. *  

On BCT  I am considered a whale or a major player. I could tag you for making that statement and not retracting it.  I won't  but here is my link to the solar array I am involved with

Cute Threat toward me,

Sorry , I don't care if you are Theymos.

 As I said I could tag you but I won't.

You take it as a threat which as a typical internet troll that won't admit they are wrong would do.

back to my points which are true  answer them.

POS = piece of shit  it is basically a bank cd with zero protection

reply to that


you said "In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

Also My s-9's earn a profit from May /June 2016  until today Oct 2018

[Zin-Zang]

POS = piece of shit  it is basically a bank cd with zero protection

reply to that

POW = Proof of Waste

Proof of Stake => Environmentally Sustainable Consensus for Crypto

you said "In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."

Also My s-9's earn a profit from May /June 2016  until today Oct 2018

LOL,

Turn your ASICS off for 3 months, ie: don't run them at all , turn them off.
Then compare our profit margin.
Then you'll understand the word "constantly".

With a PoS coin , I can leave it off 3 months and earn the same interest.
I do lose the compounding effect , but unlike a PoW I would not lose everything.  

BTW I do think BCI  with a hybrid POW_POS setup is good as the   best of both setups can be used as a superior fusion of ideas.

Hybrid coins are no good, bringing the failure of PoW to the efficiently of Proof of Stake is a useless gesture.
Run PoW or PoS and take your stand.  Hybrid PoW/PoS are a waste of time as the energy wastefulness is still included.
In Time , the PoW will have to be dropped, as HoboNickel is dropping their hybrid status and moving to PoS only.
You don't tie a superior consensus such as Proof of Stake to an energy wasting consensus such as Proof of Work.
That is like creating a car that get 1000 miles to the gallon for 5 minutes and then burns 1000 gallons to go 1 mile the next 5 minutes.
No Point to it.  
 

[philipma1957]

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

The personal insult was removed as soon as I saw you used the word please,
if you bother to read the 1st page , you can see it was removed.

You however left your insult of PoS.

…

[/color] …

it is on an old horse pasture with zero trees killed off.

It has been fully paid off due to last years coin runup

we use zero batteries
we are grid tied -- we sell  excess power in the day and buy back power at night
Contrary to your ignorant statement our actions lower the prices of power for our neighbors.

We sell power at 4 cents and buy power at 15 cents  that 11 cents is profit for the power company so we help to  lower the power companies cost of production of power which in turn lowers the customers power cost.

Being fully green means you are not dependent on the Grid at all.


There is no such thing as fully green

…

You are doing nothing more than offsetting your energy cost, which is what any business would do.

That offset helps lower prices for NJ grid power users.
…
Good Luck you're going to need it.

I won’t need luck the solar array has been paid for.  It has 20-25 years of power life left to it.


So in my case pow allowed me and buysolar to build and pay for the array in under five years.

If it was only used for buysolar s home he would have about 21  kwatts of extra power 24/7/365 on average so
 500 kwatts a day
15000 kwatts a month
180000 kwatts a year.

At four cent sell back that is 7200 a year .

So we did well with pow. Now down the road will pow thrive?

Or will pos thrive?

Your position is pos

Mine is pow-pos hybrid.

To be clear about pos = piece of s... 

You can not insult POS. It is an idea not a person so it can not be insulted.

I don’t insult you for believing in POS I think you are mistaken to believe in the idea.

I do appreciate that you removed the insult directed at me.

I would love to see POS work I just don’t see how it will.
I don’t see regulation protecting pos coin holders.

I lost my interest on my ppc stake after I sold the coins before I got the interest.
I spent more then three days asking and talking to them about my stake issue and they did not have answers for me.

These are the people that developed the coin and basically they did not offer a solution to me.
So frankly I was disgusted with them.

Now BCI as a hybrid has clearly defined plan to pay interest.

They reward 10 coins to miners and hold 3 for stakers. from each block.
I get paid my interest weekly and I like the system.

[Zin-Zang]

It effectively , blocks all new transactions, meaning no one can spend anything on that blockchain.
That entire PoW coin usefulness as a payment system is utterly destroyed, plus the other miners ability to make new coin is also halted.
Since PoW coin miners input costs are so high, blocking them from receiving any new coins or transactions fees can be more devastating in a shorter amount of time.  Also an unspendable coin's price would crash on the markets in a few weeks.

While in theory it's true, the reality would be different.
The community/dev would kick the attacker by changing PoW algorithm, not best solution but it works.
But what could community/dev of PoS coins do aside from burn/invalidate coins of attacker which would change total coin supply? IMO it's worse than change PoW algorithm.

Also, even prevent transaction from confirmed for some time is enough to make coin's price crashed.

That would be interesting , a coin such as bitcoin changing PoW algorithms to avoid attack.
It would however not guarantee the attacker did not have enough resources in the other PoW algo to continue.

Consideratiing a PoS Attacker would need 90% of the coins to pull off the transaction blocking attack,
doubtful anyone would try as attaining 90% of a crypto coin can become astronomically expensive.
And doing so would completely destroy his entire investment with no alternate use for his coins.

And you can make the same argument for PoW, why would the miner block all transactions when it would cost him his investment.
And the answer is, he would not , unless he had an alternative coin he was going to mine and no longer cared about the original.
Also switching algo may be seen to investors as a lack of confidence and cause a worse price crash than the original attack.

Which certifies for PoW the Value is in the ASICS , while in PoS the Value is in the Coin.
  

Hybrid coins are no good, bringing the failure of PoW to the efficiently of Proof of Stake is a useless gesture.
Run PoW or PoS and take your stand.  Hybrid PoW/PoS are a waste of time as the energy wastefulness is still included.
In Time , the PoW will have to be dropped, as HoboNickel is dropping their hybrid status and moving to PoS only.
You don't tie a superior consensus such as Proof of Stake to an energy wasting consensus such as Proof of Work.
That is like creating a car that get 1000 miles to the gallon for 5 minutes and then burns 1000 gallons to go 1 mile the next 5 minutes.
No Point to it.  

Then you should look from security perspective (especially attack cost), Decred is good example of it.

IMO, still no point to combing the two, just add a reorg limit to a PoW coin, or use a checkpoint server as PoW become centralized in time anyway.

Myriad coin rans multiple PoW algo, and an attacker caused problem by focusing on 1 single PoW algo.
https://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin/comments/2ybp3w/groestl_attack_still_ongoing/
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/47961/do-multi-pow-currencies-open-up-additional-attack-vectors-on-a-blockchain

Chaining algorithms reduces security as if one part of the chain fails, the whole chain fails.
And in this case fail doesn't just mean completely broken, it can also mean an ASIC-proof algorithm turning out to be not ASIC proof.

[d5000]

We have debated the same topic over and over again but the "POS proponents" have never given a suggestion which POS coin should "replace" Bitcoin.

Give us a suggestion of one POS coin that we should grant the originators perpetual power, and tell us why?

For myself, I have some hopes that in the long term PoS could be added to Bitcoin itself

As I wrote in the other post in this thread, the goal would be to "boost" security with no additional energy costs. This could already be achieved with 1 PoS block per 10 PoW blocks. It could be a solution for the times when block rewards - and thus, miners' income - are lower than now. While transaction fees could rise, I believe it's likely that the equation "attack cost / market cap" will be lower, and thus a "security booster" like PoS would be very helpful.

[BayAreaCoins]

POW should be a thing of the past.

The only people that want to hang on to it, are the people with overpriced paperweights in warehouses.

POW people have the worst excuses for disliking POS.  It's disgusting & retarded.

[aliashraf]

POW should be a thing of the past.

How fast history's clock is ticking in your stupid world 

PoW has just started to conquer and some fools believe that they've got a new alternative, sick.

[BayAreaCoins]

POW should be a thing of the past.

How fast history's clock is ticking in your stupid world  

PoW has just started to conquer and some fools believe that they've got a new alternative, sick.

"This steam engine thing is just catching on..." or "Coal has just started to conquer"

K.

Networks would be more secure with POS than POW.

1.  POW opens your network up to technological advances that can disrupt your security.  

2.  POW market is as easy or easier to corner the market on than an actual coin (goes along a bit with tech advances, but there are other ways to do this as well... miners are HORRIBLY greedy people... DDOS a pool for 1 hour and everyone bails on that pool.)  When someone corners a POW markets mining power... you often can't tell because they divide the mining power up for the 'appearance' of decentralization and when they want to fuck you *poof*.  Over 73% of the Bitcoin POW is controlled by six 'separate' entities.  POW people argue "why would someone with that much mining power want to hurt their own coins?"  Well the same statement goes for the POS folks too and really the POS 'monster miner' has more to lose than the POW 'monster miner' because the POS value is directly tied to their 'monster miner'... whereas the POW whale could just be for lulz in between creating Atoms or something crazy.

3.  A ton of POW is based on criminals stealing computer power.  That crowd doesn't want that cash cow dead.  When you mine POW... you're competing against "electricity launders"/"computer power launders" that can easily afford $1 electric/comp power for 1 pennyworth of Bitcoin in return.  Switching major markets to POS would be a HUGE blow to these criminals pockets.

I could go on, but that's good enough.  I feel confident saying that I think I could get 80% of the Bitcoin mining network for 1 hour easier than I could get 80% of all the Bitcoins.  Bitcoin isn't going to change from POW to POS anytime soon though.

[Wind_FURY]

We have debated the same topic over and over again but the "POS proponents" have never given a suggestion which POS coin should "replace" Bitcoin.

Give us a suggestion of one POS coin that we should grant the originators perpetual power, and tell us why?

It may be a PoW coin that switches to PoS succeeds bitcoin,

You are a bigger moron than I thought. Which POW coin would that be? Plus which POW coin that had switched to POS had any success? Ethereum could not even do it. Haha.

or
it may be a PoS coin that was PoS from the beginning.

Then why should we grant perpetual powers to the originators of that system?

[BayAreaCoins]

Plus which POW coin that had switched to POS had any success?

CLAM was a POW coin that switched to POS.

It's also POS based on POW.  The Clamcoin itself was 100% premined with POW, then distributed to BTC, LTC and DOGE addresses, and then POS was enabled.

It's not been overly successful though, but it hasn't been successfully attacked either.  You literally couldn't attack CLAM with all the computing power or fiat in the world today (maybe tomorrow after we all sold our shit to you and ran for the hills!   )

[Wind_FURY]

Then the community should beware and should save one eye for the CLAM, the future of money. The redeemer of the unbanked, the breaker of debt-chains, the Godcoin, the savior, the Bitcoin killer.

[BayAreaCoins]

Then the community should beware and should save one eye for the CLAM, the future of money. The redeemer of the unbanked, the breaker of debt-chains, the Godcoin, the savior, the Bitcoin killer.

Phew, you know all the right things to say to me!!!!!!!!!!!!



But really, probably not.  CLAM isn't suit & tie enough for this VC butthole licking economy.  

[bitmover]

Plus which POW coin that had switched to POS had any success?

CLAM was a POW coin that switched to POS.

It's also POS based on POW.  The Clamcoin itself was 100% premined with POW, then distributed to BTC, LTC and DOGE addresses, and then POS was enabled.

It's not been overly successful though, but it hasn't been successfully attacked either.  You literally couldn't attack CLAM with all the computing power or fiat in the world today (maybe tomorrow after we all sold our shit to you and ran for the hills!  )

DOGE, CLAM........

wtf man, wake up.

Do you want to compare bitcoin to those projects? Those networks are barely used.

Do you know how many transactions are made daily in bitcoin network, and how many are made daily in CLAM?
CLAM marketcap is 800 BTC, on rank 488. This means that the whole CLAM project, all CLAM coins, are worth 800 BTC.

CLAM is basicaly a testnet, to test crazy ideas. And that's it. a Dead coin.


Bitcoin needs to be more conservative. Bitcoin cannot risk those untested protocols, based in vague ideas like "Save the environment", or "Pos is the future", based on vague arguments.

If Bitcoin adopts PoS or any other fancy protocol and there is even a smallest problem, the whole market will crash so spectacularly and probably never bounce back.

So, go spread those ideas in Altcoins board. Bitcoin needs to develop itself slowly and safe.

[Zin-Zang]

If Bitcoin adopts PoS or any other fancy protocol and
there is even a smallest problem, the whole market will crash so spectacularly and probably never bounce back.

Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

A Massive Price drop in a low inflation PoS coin is nothing more than a buying opportunity to increase your staking capacity.  
ie: PoS is superior to PoW in Survive ability.

[bitmover]

Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

I don't agree, that's not how it works.

Transactions fees are defined by demand and supply, basic economics.
It does not have a direct correlation with price.

In December when btc price was high the fees were high (the opposite of what you aaid).
Fees were high because there was a peak in demand , nothing to do with its price.

And high fees didn't kill btc, wasn't even a threat to it .

Nobody knows what problems pos will bring, as it has never been tested with a decent project with many transactions per day

[Zin-Zang]

Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

I don't agree, that's not how it works.

Transactions fees are defined by demand and supply, basic economics.
It does not have a direct correlation with price.

In December when btc price was high the fees were high (the opposite of what you aaid).
Fees were high because there was a peak in demand , nothing to do with its price.

And high fees didn't kill btc, wasn't even a threat to it .

Nobody knows what problems pos will bring, as it has never been tested with a decent project with many transactions per day

Clarifying:

I am not talking about transactions fees , I am talking about the Bitcoin Market Price.

The production cost to make a Bitcoin is ~$3000 last I checked.
(This includes the warehouse/asics/Electricity input costs needed to Break Even.)

If the market price falls below that input cost of ~$3000, say only $1500.
That means with every new bitcoin block created the miners loses $1500 per coin which is $18750 (12.5 coins per block)
, and that is if the miner is selling every bitcoin he makes.

Which means the big players will hoard bitcoin and quit selling it as they have bigger pockets,
but even they can not hold out for long losing $2.7 Million Dollars per day or $81 Million Dollars per Month.

When too many miners drop out, the network Hash drops,
(having a difficulty only reset every 2 weeks is really a security vulnerability that has never been fixed, Most Alts reset Difficulty after every block.)
When the Hash drops too low , blocks are only found every few days, so the normal 2 weeks could take months to complete.
During this time almost no one will be able to get a transaction into the blockchain as onchain transaction capacity will be severely diminished.
Where you used to have potential of 144 x 1.7mb blocks full of transaction per day , you may only have 10 blocks or less.

Only chances for recovery would be
1.  The other miners start mining at a loss losing millions per day, doubtful as low prices is why they stopped.
2.  Wait months for it to work it out , doubtful everyone will switch to another crypto.
3.  The Bitcoin Dev team will have to reset the difficulty with a fork , which will cause a crises in confidence and hurt BTC price even more.


Do you now see the problem with having PoW insane input costs?
During even just a short market lull of 2 or 3 months,
bitcoin very survival comes into question, with no guarantee it will last long enough for the price to recover.

I hear alot of fear in your voice about Proof of Stake, it has been around since 2013 and so far none of the fairly tales about it's easy destruction have been accomplished by anyone.  Over 5 years and no one has performed a attack that destroys the Proof of Stake Consensus , it all been falsehoods and lies about how easy PoS is to destroy. PoW is only 4 years older and it's centralization & energy waste failure are paramount and undeniable to all but the bitcoin fanatics that never recognize any of it's failures  .

There are many PoS Only coins with multi-million markets caps and no one has been able to destroy one of them.  
Blackcoin / Ardor / and Multiple others

[bitmover]

When too many miners drop out, the network Hash drops,
(having a difficulty only reset every 2 weeks is really a security vulnerability that has never been fixed, Most Alts reset Difficulty after every block.)
When the Hash drops too low , blocks are only found every few days, so the normal 2 weeks could take months to complete.

I don't think that would be a really great problem. Let's suppose Hash rate drops to Half (what would be a very pessimist scenario). Instead of blocks every 10 minutes, we would have blocks every 20 minutes (on average). No a problem at all in my opinion.

And at the most 4 weeks, difficult would be adjusted and mining would be decentralized again, and ASIC would be gone.


A drop to 1/5 of the hashrate (high unlikely, as if miners do not mine, what will they do to that equipment? They will have to mine either way, or the loss will be bigger).
This could be a problem, that would be easily fixed with a fork. Anyway, bitcoin could even though be mined with low hashrates for like 2 months and then the problem would be solved.

In such a situation, of a big price drop, every other alt would be completely worthless and there would be no reason to mine them.

I hear alot of fear in your voice about Proof of Stake, it has been around since 2013 and so far none of the fairly tales about it's easy destruction have been accomplished by anyone.  Over 5 years and no one has performed a attack that destroys the Proof of Stake Consensus , it all been falsehoods and lies about how easy PoS is to destroy. PoW is only 4 years older and it's centralization & energy waste failure are paramount and undeniable to all but the bitcoin fanatics that never recognize any of it's failures.

There are many PoS Only coins with multi-million markets caps and no one has been able to destroy one of them. 
Blackcoin / Ardor / and Multiple others

In all those 5 years, nobody was also able to prove that PoS fairy tale work in great scale also.

Those are all very small projects compared to bitcoin. Ardor has 100 million USD marketcap, which is about 40 times smaller bitcoin daily volume...... Comparing Ardor to Bitcoin is like comparing United States economy to Malaysia`s.

Even Vitalik Buterin is affraid of running Casper Protocol in Ethereum, because he knows that problems will pop up when it is up and running. And there are many problems related to PoS economy, which were already mentioned in this thread.