Suicide

[relativity]

Okay, this one is several pages back, but I don't care because it's too important to be glossed over.

How Atlas was allowed to continue on with his suicide threats is beyond me.

I thought you said you were a psych major? You should know that NO ONE who threatens suicide actually ever does it, and those who do feel so alone they never tell anyone. That's practically psych 101. At most he's guilty of being an attention whore  

Rassah, I'm really hoping this is you being sarcastic, or said with tongue firmly in cheek, because this is ridiculous. This is one of the most heavily debunked suicide myths, period.

70% of people who threaten go on to make an attempt. I thought everyone knew that was a myth. Freaking seriously?! Please stop spreading harmful disinformation to people who might believe it.

And Matthew? You're being hugely, massively creepy right now. Let it go.

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[relativity]

Not being sarcastic. Note not a single one of those lists of myths mentions posting on forums or telling everyone. It's a horrible and private thought, and though yes, they try to reach out and leave clues, it's usually to friends, trusted people, or those they hope care about them. Posting about suicide publicly on a forum is 97% chance of begging for attention, and although the person may be desperate and depressed, it's extremely unlikely they will act on the publicly announced suicide. You have to actually look for and know how to recognize the signs of those who are serious. Also, as always, 73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

(bold mine)

Hey dumbass you didn't actually click my links at all, did you? I know this because my statistic wasn't made up on the spot, it was found in the last one:

"People thinking about suicide give clues and warnings as cries for help. Over 70% who do threaten to kill themselves either make an attempt or complete the act."

CITATION: Providing Access to Help (2011). PATH Training Manual. Bloomington: PATH.

Do you want more links? Have more links. Maybe try reading some of them this time, it might be fun.

By the way, this whole online vs. real life nonsense: you're moving the goalposts and you know it. The first time you just said, and I quote:

You should know that NO ONE who threatens suicide actually ever does it, and those who do feel so alone they never tell anyone. That's practically psych 101.

But ignoring that: Fine. Let's pretend this is about online vs. real life, and by the way, way to pretend to be a psychology and/or suicide expert. (Hint: you're not, and it's really obvious.)

I propose a deal. Find me one legitimate citation that says people who talk about suicide a lot and/or mention suicide online are drama-whores that can be dismissed out of hand -- as opposed to the conventional wisdom which says that all threats of suicide are to be taken seriously, because even the "cry for attention/help" angle is often employed by someone who is considering it but doesn't know how else to get help. ONE LEGITIMATE CITATION. And I'll send you 5 BTC. But it has to be an actual legitimate citation (peer-reviewed, scientific, an organization that isn't a bunch of fucking cranks) since I have now sent you nine links for my side of things, so some dude writing a blogpost isn't going to cut it.

If you can't, then instead, you come on here and admit you were wrong and say that, yes, it's harmful and dangerous to shrug off people who talk about suicide, and admit that you don't have any expertise in this field, and apologize and shut up about it. You don't have to pay me any BTC. You just have to walk it back.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Not taking sides, but here's the best info I've found: http://www.nmha.org/go/suicide

People who talk about suicide, threaten suicide, or call suicide crisis centers are 30 times more likely than average to kill themselves.

The three times I've attempted it, it was over pussy, and only did it for the attention. Boy, that didn't work out at all. Now, at 51, I have Chester. Life is good!

[Primitive Caveman]

Rassah, I'm really hoping this is you being sarcastic, or said with tongue firmly in cheek, because this is ridiculous. This is one of the most heavily debunked suicide myths, period.

70% of people who threaten go on to make an attempt. I thought everyone knew that was a myth. Freaking seriously?! Please stop spreading harmful disinformation to people who might believe it.

Not being sarcastic. Note not a single one of those lists of myths mentions posting on forums or telling everyone. It's a horrible and private thought, and though yes, they try to reach out and leave clues, it's usually to friends, trusted people, or those they hope care about them. Posting about suicide publicly on a forum is 97% chance of begging for attention, and although the person may be desperate and depressed, it's extremely unlikely they will act on the publicly announced suicide. You have to actually look for and know how to recognize the signs of those who are serious. Also, as always, 73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

You're talking out your ass, aren't you? You don't know shit about what your talking about, and it shows. You seem like you're trying to be a funny, snarky internet asshole, but suicide isn't fresh game. Quit trying to be a smartass and shut up.

[Maged]

Rassah, I'm really hoping this is you being sarcastic, or said with tongue firmly in cheek, because this is ridiculous. This is one of the most heavily debunked suicide myths, period.

70% of people who threaten go on to make an attempt. I thought everyone knew that was a myth. Freaking seriously?! Please stop spreading harmful disinformation to people who might believe it.

Not being sarcastic. Note not a single one of those lists of myths mentions posting on forums or telling everyone.

While that's true, consider your very own words:

It's a horrible and private thought, and though yes, they try to reach out and leave clues, it's usually to friends, trusted people, or those they hope care about them. Posting about suicide publicly on a forum is 97% chance of begging for attention, and although the person may be desperate and depressed, it's extremely unlikely they will act on the publicly announced suicide. You have to actually look for and know how to recognize the signs of those who are serious. Also, as always, 73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

The part I bolded makes it clear that it is quite possible for a long-time forum member to be serious. While I agree that a random newbie posting about suicide is likely trolling, it's a different case entirely when it comes to established forum members. Established members might consider the people on the forum to be their friends, or at the very least, they hope that the people on the forum care about them. They might consider it "safer" than telling a trusted friend, because people on the internet aren't as likely to report it to people in real life.

[repentance]

Maged makes an important point about people considering those in online communities to which they belong as trustworthy friends.  For some people, fellow members of online communities are the only ones with whom they feel any connection at all.

People tend to verbalise suicidal ideation in the hope that others can somehow relieve their despair.  It would be fair to say that they want others to understand and acknowledge the depth of that despair and sense of hopelessness but it's not usually simple "attention-seeking" in the common sense of that term.  I think it tends to get labelled that way because people assume that if someone talks about killing themselves and doesn't go on to make an attempt, it somehow proves that they were "only bluffing".  In my experience, that assumption is invalid (and the research seems to support the proposition that openly expressed suicidal ideation is a cry for help).  

I think it would be helpful if Rassah clarified his use of the term "threatened suicide", because I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing here.  I belong to a demographic which has a 15% lifetime risk of completed suicide, so my interest in this discussion isn't entirely academic.

[relativity]

I did read them all. They all say the same thing. I also don't trust suicide statistics much.

Why? That's not a smartass question, I promise. Why do you not trust the statistics? I don't think I've been linking to any controversial organizations; if I have, it was unintentionally, and I'll find some non-affiliated ones.

I'm not a psochology expert, as I've only had a bunch of classes, read a bunch of articles, and treated it as a hobby. I suppose you are an expert on suicide? Why? Me, besides reading about it, I've had extensive personal experiences. Not something I like to talk about though.
And fine, I'll keep the goal posts the same. People who threaten suicide don't go through with it. I'll stand by that.

I would not call myself an expert, no. I've also taken psychology classes, and been in therapy.

I'm actually wondering about something here. I'm wondering if some of your personal experiences don't agree with the statistics, which is why you then don't believe them. That is, when it was someone close to you who was suicidal, he or she did not choose to talk about it, because it was too painful for him or her to share very openly. So when you see someone else talking about it, your internal thought process is "well, if they were really suicidal, they would react more like (insert name here)."

It's understandable, but it's not definitive. Life isn't really one-size-fits-all like that. I hope whatever experience(s) you've had weren't too painful. I've had some experiences, too, and I think one of the reasons I've been particularly fiery in this thread is that I've seen some very real damage caused by exactly this myth.

And fine, I'll keep the goal posts the same. People who threaten suicide don't go through with it. I'll stand by that.

Okay. I'd like to clarify one thing, here, if that's okay. Plenty of people commit or attempt suicide without ever vocalizing it first; I'm not implying they don't. Some people, in speaking about it, are able to get the help they need in order to not attempt. And I'll grant you that there might be a percentage that uses "I MIGHT AS WELL JUST KILL MYSELF" as the ultimate drama trump card; some people just suck. Having said that: I would say the majority of people who say "I have been thinking about suicide" will, if they are left unhelped, proceed to attempting -- the 70% statistic sounds about right.

Off hand, my not serious citations are www.secondlife.com, www.furaffinity.net, www.devientart.com, and a slew of other places frequented by lonely antisocial furs and/or nerds. I'll do some more research later when I get home. I'm not sure I can find something that literally says that people who talk about suicide can be dismissed out of hand, though. Would a citation that says something like those who threaten suicide don't do it, and those who do don't really talk about it? Do you need 100% for both statistics, or is a high enough percentage ok?

I hang out with a lot of nerds, too. Finding connection and space online is good. Finding a place where you can talk about your fears of hurting yourself? Even better. And that might even work at making the 70% into 65% or 60% or one day, I hope, 0%. Because a lot of people talk about suicide because they're having those thoughts, and they're scared, and reaching out for reasons not to go through with it. I hope more people can find them.

I totally don't need 100%. I'd settle for something that says a clinical trial or a citation says that most people who threaten or talk about suicide never attempt it, and most people who attempt have never talked about it. I'd accept 51% as "most," even. And I'm willing to say that because I've never seen any study that gets anywhere near that. As I said earlier: plenty of people talk about it and don't attempt, and plenty of people commit but never talk about it first, but the Venn diagram of talking and attempting has a huge overlap in the middle.

[relativity]

Dammit, Rassah, I keep thinking maybe we're getting somewhere, but no.

Okay, you asked me not to quote you, so I won't, but holy shit, you talk about anecdata filling people with expectations and then seeing patterns that fill them, and that's all your post is. That's it. You have preconceived ideas, and you fit life into those patterns. You see what you expect to see.

You mention people who threaten it in drama-whore ways: which, welcome to drama-whores. Just because a drama-whore threatens to leave a forum and never come back doesn't mean people never leave forums, either. Those people are a minority.

When people on the news who are newly bereaved say "I had no idea he wanted to kill himself," that doesn't necessarily equate to there having been no signs. That's often a case of those people having blinkers on. If you dig, you can uncover signs, like the person saying the day before "if I died tomorrow, you could pay off the house" and oh, hey, that's not the same thing! Or "Sometimes I think everyone would be better off if I was dead." The horrible truth is that people don't want to believe that people around them are in that much pain and considering it.

My parents also said that people who threaten suicide never do it: it's a common belief from their generation. It's also been thoroughly debunked by actual mental health professionals. Yes, suicide is stigmatized, but plenty of people are trying their damnedest to make it so that it isn't. More importantly, actual mental health professionals presumably have the resources to manage a study with the proper controls in place, so saying that the statistics are naturally going to be off has no basis in any sort of reality.

The reason I am adamant about this is that, again, this belief is wrong and causes real, actual damage. Some people who are suicidal are scared, because they are suicidal but do not actually want to die (it's possible, think about it), and they're trying to find someone to help them hold on. Being brushed aside because "talking about it means you don't mean it" just pushes those people into attempting.

Again, the fact that I had nine links and Phinneas Gage had a tenth -- and that I could easily find another five to ten, if you like, right now -- and all you have is some vague statements backing what I already said, that some people threaten suicide without meaning it? That should tell you something. Namely, that you're clinging to a preconceived ideal with absolutely no rational reason to it except "your gut."

That's fine, and your gut can think whatever it wants, but I'm still not satisfied about this. I wanted you to walk it back -- and started this messy derail -- because this isn't just an "agree to disagree" concern. This is something that can actually hurt people.

It's not okay to cling to ignorance just because you've never looked critically at something your mom told you once. Prejudice is prejudice. Opinions like yours contribute to the stigmatization of mental health, and the difficulty people have in getting help for serious problems.

[rainingbitcoins]

Plus he strikes me as one of those who likes himself way too much to do something like that.

Sometimes the people who appear to love themselves the most are the ones who actually hate themselves the most and are putting up walls of false bravado to compensate for or disguise that fact. Certainly not always, but sometimes.

[Primitive Caveman]

Anyone else find it funny that Rassah wants us to side with him in the face of statistical data because of a few anecdotes and "momma says"?

[rainingbitcoins]

I'm sure that's possible. But if someone hates themselves, why would they care about what others think and try to convince others about how awesome they are? Could you please walk me through this line of thought?

It's a desperate attempt to gain the self-worth they don't have. Validation from others is one of the greatest self-esteem boosters out there. I doubt many people who hate themselves actually want to hate themselves.

[relativity]

Stop talking in terms of what people who are "actually" suicidal do and don't do, until you have facts and citations to quote. You have nothing but a half-dozen anecdotal cases. I have evidence. You don't. You don't get to tell me what actual suicidal people do because that's what you've decided actual suicidal people do, based on what a handful of people you know have told you about their own experiences.

You want to play it like this? Let's play it like this.

Bipolar disorder: The fact that bipolar has become a slang term for someone who is moody and overemotional speak for itself.

Bipolar disorder, lifetime rate of suicide: between 15 and 20% citation 1 citation 2

Borderline personality disorder: This one's a classic.

The features of BPD include emotional instability, intense unstable interpersonal relationships, a need for relatedness and a fear of rejection. As a result, people with BPD often evoke intense emotions in those around them. Pejorative terms to describe persons with BPD such as “difficult,” “treatment resistant,” “manipulative,” “demanding” and “attention seeking" are often used, and may become a self-fulfilling prophecy as the clinician's negative response triggers further self-destructive behaviour.

citation

Borderline personality disorder, lifetime rate of suicide: between 8 to 10%. citation 1 citation 2

Histrionic personality disorder:

Histrionics are the quintessential drama queens. They are theatrical, their emotions exaggerated to the point of a caricature, their gestures sweeping, disproportional, and inappropriate. They are easily suggestible and over-reactive.

citation

Histrionic personality disorder, oh no look a quote that almost looks like it might support you!!!, stating what I already admitted, that some people do threaten suicide for attention:

A person with this disorder might also:

(skip ahead)

Threaten or attempt suicide to get attention

citation

Histrionic personality disorder, a quote explaining why the above doesn't mean we should ignore suicidal threats (beyond the basic "it would take a psychic to discern which ones are real"):

Suicidality should be assessed on a regular basis and suicidal threats should not be ignored or dismissed. Suicide sometimes occurs when all that was intended was a gesture, so all such thoughts and plans should be taken with the same seriousness as with any other disorder.

citation

Histrionic personality disorder, lifetime rate of suicide: I could not find the breakdown for histrionic itself, which I am admitting, here. So instead I found this:

All major mental disorders carry an increased risk of suicide. However, 90% of suicides can be traced to depression, linked either to manic-depression (bipolar), major depression (unipolar), schizophrenia or personality disorders, particularly borderline personality disorder.

(skip ahead)

People with a diagnosis of a personality disorder, particularly borderline, antisocial or narcissistic personality disorders, are at a high risk of suicide.

citation

Note that it doesn't say "except histrionic: those people don't."

So: yes. All of these "drama queen" personality disorders have a higher suicide rate than the general population, not lower.

I don't know how many more links I can pull out. I have evidence, I have data, I have citations, and you have a gut feeling and some people you knew on forums that never went on to attempt THAT YOU KNOW OF. You say that therapists aren't psychic, but mention that your friends never went on to attempt. That you know of. I tell my therapist a hell of a lot more than I tell my friends. Someone who goes to the psychiatric hospital for an attempt might not want people finding out about it, because there is a stigma about mental health in this country, one that you are perpetuating.

Once again, you're moving the goalposts. It sounds like you're saying "people who threaten suicide a lot piss me off, and I shouldn't have to care." That's fucking great. You don't have to care. Good for you. So what? But don't announce to the rest of the world that they don't mean it, and they're not going to go through with it. That causes real, actual damage and can end up with real, actual people being really, actually dead.

You're making this about internet forums and drama queens. You know what? Most drama queens are broken people searching for attention because they need help and don't know how to get it.

I'm sorry they're not asking for help in a way that you've deemed to be acceptable. That doesn't mean that they're lying. It doesn't make them unworthy of help. If you don't want to be around drama queens, that's fine, they're exhausting, but that doesn't mean shit about whether or not they'd actually go through with their threats, and more importantly, whether they would or not has no bearing on your original premise, which was that people who threaten suicide don't do it, which is really not true.

Though now that I think about if, if the drama types were serious, maybe I just don't care, because every one of them was an evil, manipulative asshole who onlly ended up causing a ton of pain for others.

Congratulations, you're a horrible person. You think people who cause drama for other people deserve to literally die.

[Rassah]

Though now that I think about if, if the drama types were serious, maybe I just don't care, because every one of them was an evil, manipulative asshole who onlly ended up causing a ton of pain for others.

Congratulations, you're a horrible person. You think people who cause drama for other people deserve to literally die.

Yes. They don't deserve to be murdered, but I would call them on their bluff and give them an easy way out. If they take it, it's their choice and the world won't miss them.

Meh, sorry, this whole topic is too stressful for me to deal with, so I'm out. I walk back whatever, or whatever. I'm not trolling, and yes, I don't care. Stopped caring back in March of 1996. If it makes me a horrible person, then I'm a horrible person. Feel free to wipe this whole topic, and sorry for wasting your time.

[relativity]

You're either trolling or a horrible person. I no longer care which.