Bitstamp :( warnings and rejoinders.

[tvbcof]

In times past Bitcointalk used to be the go-to for finding the skivvy on scammy, flaky, or otherwise unusual behavior of established services.  Now I find a fair number of references to the below described issues on Reddit (which I won't patronize) and other places, but nothing here.  Oh well.

I suggested to a friend to give Bitstamp a try about a month ago.  Friend has been trying unsuccessfully to get a test wire and a 5-fig USD wire to a SE Asian country for nearly a month now.  I know the situation well.  The friend is 100% clean as are the BTC.  The initial KYC stuff went well and quickly.

Friend has gotten various indications via ticket responses of when the wires would come through, and they have not.  When the dates came and passed there were no follow-ups on the tickets.

As some other users have experienced, when a wire is expected there is instead a request for yet more information like birthdays and tax numbers and such.  But still no money.

It looks like what Bitstamp does when they get a withdraw request is to sit on it for a while then hand it off to an unnamed processor.  When they hand it off they indicate that the request 'finished' via e-mail and on their UI, but that doesn't mean that a wire has even been attempted.  At that point the customer (and Bitstamp themselves?) have lost reference to the money.  Requests for tracking information go unanswered and/or unfulfilled, but that could mean that there has been no wire attempt and thus there is no tracing information exists.

In my own experience I got the same kinds of behavior from Mt. Gox before they went tits-up.  I made one small-ish wire request (which is to this day not complete) and took the rest of my money out via BTC before they collapsed.  My friend has done this today upon my suggestion.  Friend left the 5-fig wire transfer in place since it seems doubtful that Bitstamp could cancel it even if they wanted to.  The single redeeming feature of government sponsored fiat money is that it is subject to claims via a government operated court system should push come to shove.

Seems that Bitstamp has recently sold to some Korean gaming/investment firm.  The excuse that Bitstamp gives to some is that they are having troubles with their new payment processor which I don't particularly doubt, but the boilerplate 'can you PM me your ticket number so I can look into it' thing which the reps use on Reddit seems phony and suspect to me.  I mean why not just be responsive and honest on the ticket itself?  Looks to me like it's 'for show' to indicate to the world that they care.

If anyone has been getting wires, it would be interesting to try to reverse-engineer who the payment processor might be.  Especially if Bitstamp themselves goes dark a-la Mt Gox.

A suggestion I have for Bitstamp would be clear about how their hand-off process for withdraw requests works and name-names about who has the money at the present time when a query has been made.  Many people cannot afford to have tens of thousands of USD in limbo for weeks and months since a lot of them (such as my friend) have obligations for the money and were basing their operations around information about timings as presented by Bitstamp.  Few people expect a wire transfer to take anywhere near a month.

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[1Referee]

It may not at all apply to Bitstamp, but to me these cases reek of insolvency.

I remember that Coinbase at some point went through very similar delays, where they came up with all sorts of excuses to justify why it took so long. Don't forget that there is way more crypto in circulation than actual fiat, especially after a bull run that stimulated people to cash out, which basically means that the fiat reserves of exchanges are on their lows, maybe even completely exhausted.

As you said yourself, there is no way to fact check whether or not they actually process withdrawals as long as the money isn't in, so we can only speculate as to what might be going on in the background. Not much to do other than to wait for Bitstamp to have that deposit come through (whenever that may be).

[gentlemand]

I flatly refuse to use anywhere that freezes you and demands extra verification when you're already verified, let alone asks for details like tax shit that no other company on Earth would dare ask for. Why the fuck would I hand that over to a bunch of anonymous Slovenes?

Bitstamp have had problems with middle man banks in the past. I assume this is the same again. I can't imagine there'd be anything properly nefarious going on just after being bought out by a larger player.

They'll never see a penny from me again all the same.

[Slow death]

These exchanges have this type of behavior that in my opinion is a bad and shameful behavior, they have this type of behavior because the governments of their countries do not make periodic inspections and do not require that these exchange are licensed, because of this these exchanges steal the coins of their customers and the exchange will not have consequences for the side of them. just see a very important point: how many exchange have physical office for customers to complain? here is the headquarters of bitstamp:

OFFICE

Bitstamp USA Inc.
99 Hudson Street, 5th Floor
New York, NY 10013
United States

this is the headquarters of bitstamp

[tvbcof]

Nice to see all of the old-timers!

Holding people's BTC hostage until they produced an identity theft kit and supplied it to Bitstamp as they did back in the day was a true dick move.  Other entities who were compelled to migrate to more 'approved' KYC methods did not do this.  I swore that I would avoid their service for that reason and to this day I have.

In Bitstamp's defense, I noted that it's now half a decade on and I have not see a huge number of claims of flat out theft.  Seems like they have been trying successfully to operate a legitimate business and be contemplative in this challenging space.  It also seems that when they did eventually get hacked they made their customers whole and ate the losses, though I would also note that it would be easy to engineer  psy-op along these lines for marketing reasons.  e.g., to 'build credibility'.

At the end of the day, there are simply not a lot of good options for cashing out of BTC when one needs fiat in the real world.  Bitstamp was simply the 'least bad' option that I could see for my friend's situation, so that is what we tried first.

Here's a typical thread which describes my friends experience almost exactly:

  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitstamp/comments/9syucs/bitstamp_poor_service_and_money_never_arrived/

---

I'll throw out another thought in Bitstamp's defense:  If Bitstamp was to be transparent with respect to their sub-contractors (payment processors) in order to have credibility with their own user-base, it could be a big no-no in bank-land and they would have trouble getting anyone in that space to do business with them again.

Seems that the 'standard' in the fiat banking industry is to be secretive, deceptive, and dishonest and rely on the fact that most plebs cannot muster the financial resources to defend their own interests.  The banksters seem to be the primary forces behind installing governments in our so-called 'democracies' and the governments they install operate the courts systems.  It's no wonder that the banks have the upper hand, and they don't hesitate to screw other entities when it serves their interest.

Again, I don't doubt at all that the 'processors' (e.g., banks) are screwing with and screwing Bitstamp and that that is motivating force behind the problems that my friend is experiencing at the moment.  If I were a bankster I would try to arrange so that the only entities who could competitively operate were ones which were under U.S. jurisdiction.  Could well be that Bitstamp finds themselves a target of such an effort.

An interesting game play here is that in order to angle for control over the crypto-currrency space, the tactic is to make fiat currency and the fiat banking systems not work for certain people.  It will be interesting to see if the tactic ends up demonstrating even more that there is a need for crypto.  I personally have always had Bitcoin work in a reliable and expedient manner.  Dealing with fiat is ALWAYS a giant hassle and often doesn't work at all.  And I'm not even a criminal or even a tax cheat!

[LeGaulois]

They may be trying to buy patience from customers. Coinbase used this strategy a while back with canned replies etc. The number of complaints was increasing.
I suppose to not create panic waves or something about. It could work in a very short time period, but doing it for a longer period can be a challenge to them lol

[abracadabra]

Don't use Bitstamp.  They are currently not performing USD fiat withdrawals. My guess is some kind of money crunch or theft that they refuse to publicize. There are people that have been waiting over 2 months for their funds to be moved out of Bitstamp. There are people looking to spearhead a class action lawsuit against them.

there are tons of people having issues.  see https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitstamp/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/BitstampOfficial/

I used to be a supporter of Bitstamp, not any more.  The past few months something has been going on with Bitstamp and they won't be forthcoming with the truth.  All you will get is excuses and delay tactics.

[squatter]

The problems at Bitstamp seem really bad. I had no idea since I don't look at Reddit these days. Thanks for posting this, tvbcof.

There's many dozens of complaints about missing bank wires and SEPA transfers, and they go back to at least July. At first, I thought the issues had to do with a sloppy transition given the recent acquisition. But then I realized how far the complaints go back. It's getting to Gox-level delays now.

I'm surprised there's no disparity developing between Stamp and the other exchanges. When this kind of FUD happens to Bitfinex -- well, just look at what happened on October 14th when they disabled fiat deposits. USDT hit 85 cents that day on Kraken.

It may not at all apply to Bitstamp, but to me these cases reek of insolvency.

I remember that Coinbase at some point went through very similar delays, where they came up with all sorts of excuses to justify why it took so long.

When was that? I've never heard of delays like this at Coinbase. If the delay was a matter of days or even a few weeks, particularly during high volume times like the second half of last year, there could be legitimate reasons for it.

At first, I took the comparisons to Mt. Gox as hyperbole. After looking into this, I would immediately buy BTC and withdraw all funds, if I had funds at Bitstamp right now.

[BitHodler]

I'm surprised there's no disparity developing between Stamp and the other exchanges. When this kind of FUD happens to Bitfinex -- well, just look at what happened on October 14th when they disabled fiat deposits. USDT hit 85 cents that day on Kraken.

Bitstamp isn't nested as firmly in this ecosystem like Bitfinex, and there is less to fud about with how people consider Bitstamp to be one of the most reliable exchanges in the industry.

Whales are the first to exit an exchange when they start to feel that things might turn ugly, which immediately results in the cold wallets of that exchange to shrink, and that's exactly what happened to Bitfinex.

https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/3Nxwenay9Z8Lc9JBiywExpnEFiLp6Afp8v

As long as Bitstamp's cold wallet holdings hover between 90-100k BTC there isn't much to worry about.

[tvbcof]

The problems at Bitstamp seem really bad. I had no idea since I don't look at Reddit these days. Thanks for posting this, tvbcof.

...

Glad to do it.

By way of due diligence before suggesting to my friend to give Bitstump a try I came here to bitcointalk.org to see if there were any known current problems.  Unfortunately I saw none.

I also didn't notice the Bitstump issues strewn throughout Reddit because I don't use that platform very much.  I guess I should put it on my watch list for Bitcoin related stuff   I hate the way those fuckers are gung-ho about censorship of badthink and are joining hands with their brethren (Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc) in our so-called 'free countries' here in the 'developed world' to facilitate it.  So, I cringe whenever I see their text string grace my URL window.  Oh well.  at least I don't have to have an account with them to see their specially curated approved-for-sheeple content.  Yet.

[tvbcof]

According to this reddit post:

  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitstamp/comments/9uf6kt/psa_for_those_waiting_on_bitstamp_funds/

Bitstump's "new payment processor" and presumably the ones who are responsible for all the delays and grief for all involved would the this outfit:

  https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/xtrm#section-overview

No idea how accurate it is.  If anyone anywhere _has_ been getting money wired, I suppose that reference to this shop may show up somewhere on the tracking information.

One would presume that Bitstump has handed the fiat over to this outfit and they continue to sit on it.  It could be good to know if Bitstump goes completely dark.

[Slow death]

By way of due diligence before suggesting to my friend to give Bitstump a try I came here to bitcointalk.org to see if there were any known current problems.  Unfortunately I saw none.

The only case I encountered this year was this:

[BITSTAMP] problem -- Multi-deposits through one deposit request

But it is very strange that suddenly their clients have many complaints, here are people who are complaining and they are responding, see here:

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/bitstamp.net

[1Referee]

When was that? I've never heard of delays like this at Coinbase.

It happened in 2017 before the bull run took off, and I can even remember similar delays going back to 2016.

Whales are the first to exit an exchange when they start to feel that things might turn ugly, which immediately results in the cold wallets of that exchange to shrink, and that's exactly what happened to Bitfinex.

https://bitinfocharts.com/bitcoin/address/3Nxwenay9Z8Lc9JBiywExpnEFiLp6Afp8v

As long as Bitstamp's cold wallet holdings hover between 90-100k BTC there isn't much to worry about.

Thanks for bringing that up. I never took the cold wallet metric seriously till I started to notice how correlated the complaints around Bitfinex and the outflow of capital was during their recent banking problems.

I'll keep using Bitstamp as fiat entry point because it's the most convenient option for me, and I'm already verified there. Another thing is that the last time I withdrew fiat was back in 2015 so whatever is going on in the background, it's not and won't be affecting me personally.

[tvbcof]

In researching the presumed 'payment processor' who is reported to be at the root of the problem, I found this:

  https://www.xtrm.com/web/Fastrak/connect.aspx

on a standard Google search.  Lol!  It seems to give a list of the Slavs who would have certain admin privs at Bitstump.  Thanks, XTRM, for showing us a list of people who could likely tar up high quality identity theft kits for all of Bitstump's users and take them along on their way out the door.

A 'payment processor' who is so loose with information should probably not be trusted with more than about 10 cents.

[tvbcof]

Another amusing thing I ran across in my research:

  https://www.reddit.com/r/RippleTalk/comments/9ue3dd/bitstamp_has_a_new_official_subreddit/

This from just a few days ago.  Looks to me as though Bitstump is interested in being able to edit and delete the complaints which are now pouring in.  Another non-good sign.  Seems like they've forgotten about bitcointalk.org since I've seen no comment from them at all.  (They used to have employees who were actually moderators of this forum.)  I thought maybe they would at least grace us with some of their standard boilerplate bullshit but no joy.

[tvbcof]

An international wire NOT attempted through Bitstamp just cleared into my friend's account with the same information supplied to Bitstamp.  The entire process took under two days including whatever holds were applied by the SE Asian bank.  This proves that the information supplied was not a problem and the recipient's bank/bank account has no problems.  If Bitstamp tries that excuse on my friend we'll know it's BS.

I feel for people who don't have an extra 5-figure sum kicking around to adjust for Bitstamp failures (and perhaps losses?) and were relying on Bitstamp's capabilities as part of a necessary business transaction.  There must be plenty   It's always good to have a backup option whenever dealing with any fiat money systems.  Crypto-currencies are vastly more reliable in my now rather long experience with both.

[tvbcof]

The wires mentioned in opening this thread both cleared finally.  Maybe 10 days ago, but I forgot to update this thread.

My friend opened several tickets, one for each wire, and requested they not be closed until the money was accounted for.  Bitstamp seemed to have honored this request more or less.

I think it sucks that Bitstamp:

 - takes a fair amount of time to hand off wire requests to their 'processor'.

 - closes wire requests as 'finished' when they make the hand-off rather than when their processor actually attempts the wire.

 - seems to have no visibility into the workings of the processor and no way to do any sort of tracking, feedback, or updates.

 - keeps the 'processor' invisible to the customer thereby keeping 10's of thousands USD in a black hole for weeks or months at a time.  One senses that if the processor felt like simply absconding with them money, that could easily happen with no recourse for the customer.  Possibly no recourse for Bitstamp either.  With things being completely secret and invisible it is really difficult to understand how much influence even Bitstamp has in the matter.

So, Bitstamp, I suggest that you improve your process flow for wire transfers in order to provide a better level of service for your customers.  Just a friendly suggestion, and I'll certainly be checking back before mentioning your name in the future when someone asks me about potential exchange service providers.

[tvbcof]

New issue with Bitstamp

Now they are bothering at least one person for 'documents' about where Bitcoin came from.  This person is not in Europe or in the United States and has nothing to do with either geographical area.

The thing is, for some people buying 10 BTC cost about $20 back in the day, and plenty of people obtained a ton of BTC from mining.  There would have been no reason to keep detailed records of anything back then.  Bitstamp was around back in those days and at least some of them should know this.  They keep bothering people with the same questions over and over again and threatening to hold back wire transfers unless information which doesn't make any sense (and is fairly private even if it did.)

What do people suppose is Bitstamp's game here?  Are they working for some entity to get sensitive information about people?  Are they under the thumb of some national or multi-national interests and forced to gather information about citizens from third countries?  Are they just accumulating data for their own use and/or sale?

Obviously anyone doing anything over trivial sums of BTC needs to have multiple exchanges to use.  Any recommendations which are working somewhat at this time?

[gentlemand]

What do people suppose is Bitstamp's game here?  Are they working for some entity to get sensitive information about people?  Are they under the thumb of some national or multi-national interests and forced to gather information about citizens from third countries?  Are they just accumulating data for their own use and/or sale?

Obviously anyone doing anything over trivial sums of BTC needs to have multiple exchanges to use.  Any recommendations which are working somewhat at this time?

Desperation to be 'compliant' even though there are countless companies out there dealing with much larger sums that never make demands of this nature.

No matter what happens I still ain't going anywhere near them.

If they demanded documents for my $20 bitcoins I'd whip up a fake electricity bill from 2011. If that didn't do it I'd go straight to their regulator in Luxembourg and make a noise.

When the time comes to sell I won't be bothering with any exchange. It'll be OTC only.

If 2017 nearly finished them, the next explosion will totally and completely paralyse all of them.

[tvbcof]

...

...
If they demanded documents for my $20 bitcoins I'd whip up a fake electricity bill from 2011. If that didn't do it I'd go straight to their regulator in Luxembourg and make a noise.
...

I differ with you on two points here:

First, I rather doubt that Bitstamp is real wild about what they are doing.  I think it is foisted upon them by a variety of parties one of them being the Luxembourg regulators.  I think it is highly unlikely that anyone will get any relief from said regulators.  Most probably one would end up with their names on even more secret lists.

Secondly, and much more importantly, I would strongly advise to NOT fabricate any data or records.  The simple reason for this is that according to every definition I've read including very specifically that produced by Bitstamp, money laundering is specific to criminal activity.  If your coins are not a result of illegal activity, they will be after you get done fabricating data associated with them as data fabrication is almost certain to be classified by most court systems as a crime in and of itself.

Best to just walk away from Bitstamp (or any exchange) after you've used them.  Look for other ways.  Bitstamp is but a used jizz rag to my friend, but my friend has other friends who can pull another clean tissue out of the same box.