Why do people hate trumps wall..

[coins4commies]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

No it is not. In fact that's an incredibly insensitive thing to say for one who claims to be so sensitive to others.

You blithely say things like that only perhaps because you don't personally know the violence along the board. You are remote from people being raped and murdered by criminals that cross back and forth freely across the US border with Mexico.

My entire stance is based on the violence.  That is the same type of violence these people are trying to escape.  Its the same argument as saying refugees were full of embedded ISIS. 

No it is not an argument intended to invoke fear in people.

That's a total bullshit pitch and you know it.

Sure we've got systems to catch criminals, but that's after they murder or rape or steal, not before. The whole point is to not let them in so those things don't happen.

That myth has been debunked. The fear is irrational. 
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
Here we subscribe to the idea that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  If you are really concerned about rape, and murder, you should look at our natural born population which commits crimes at much higher rates. 

[1714298750]

1714298750

[Spendulus]

...
That myth has been debunked. The fear is irrational.  
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
Here we subscribe to the idea that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  If you are really concerned about rape, and murder, you should look at our natural born population which commits crimes at much higher rates.  

It's not a myth that there are 500 criminals in the caravan population. The only myths are in your words.

[coins4commies]

Its a non issue.  Known criminals will not make it through "catch and release", they will be caught and brought to whatever justice is deemed appropriate.   No one is saying criminals should be granted asylum.

Trump has closed san ysidro, our largest border entry point to all people.  Americans in TJ cannot get back.  Yet again we have to wait several hours for a judge to overrule our dictator in chief. 
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/25/us/san-ysidro-port-of-entry-closed/index.html
Until then, unjust policies should be broken. People should resist.

[skyrocketwolden]

A wall would be good for security reasons but in a world were trade and commerce, social lives and economies are driven because of lack of these walls i think its a bad idea

[Spendulus]

Its a non issue.  Known criminals will not make it through "catch and release", they will be caught and brought to whatever justice is deemed appropriate.   No one is saying criminals should be granted asylum. ....

Again you show your bias and mis statements.

Advocating criminals be allowed into the US, and advocating they be allowed to run free until they are "caught."

Oh, and by the way, this entire problem in large part exists because your "open border buddies" did in fact do just that, let the criminals run free, and let them repeatedly be caught and released, over and over. There is a large number of these cases, yes, including many of rape and murder.

Please stop being idiotic.

[coins4commies]

Of course out of millions of people, there will be some who commit rape and murder.  That is why I posted the article about the research.  Undocumented immigrants are not a special group of people immune to the human struggle.  The key is that they commit these crimes at a lower rate than the people already here. 

 Why not just focus on addressing issues of rape and murder in society in general?  Why focus on poor people who are actively trying to better themselves?  If you get bent out of shape over rape and murder by immigrants but not rape and murder by citizens, you are part of the rape and murder problem.

[bones261]

  You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

[Spendulus]

....If you get bent out of shape over rape and murder by immigrants but not rape and murder by citizens, you are part of the rape and murder problem.

Lol, now you are trying your skills at sophistry, and doing quite poorly.  But that's an inevitably outcome from attempting to argue illogical premises.

More importantly it is an admission to having lost the argument. Then one has no option but to resort to logical fallacies and such. You might consider that is not wise.

 You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

This is partly true. It would not impact the lucrative cocaine trade.

Assuming that the customers prefer the legal weed, if price and quality is good, this seems to improve things all around.

It's important to note that partial solutions to a large and complex reality should never be rejected. It was by a series of gradual relaxations and partial solutions that the West, notably Reagan, cracked open the Soviet block. And Nixon's starting a dialogue with China, that worked in a similar way. Trump and NK, etc. These are paths to a solution.

By the way, Legal is not a right/left issue today in the USA. You will find many on all sides of the political spectrum who would agree with legalization. That is why the trend toward legalization is succeeding.

The wall is a part of any solution and is a reasonable thing, assuming one gets out of the new progressive open border crap and thinks rationally.

[bones261]

 You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

This is partly true. It would not impact the lucrative cocaine trade.

Assuming that the customers prefer the legal weed, if price and quality is good, this seems to improve things all around.

It's important to note that partial solutions to a large and complex reality should never be rejected. It was by a series of gradual relaxations and partial solutions that the West, notably Reagan, cracked open the Soviet block. And Nixon's starting a dialogue with China, that worked in a similar way. Trump and NK, etc. These are paths to a solution.

By the way, Legal is not a right/left issue today in the USA. You will find many on all sides of the political spectrum who would agree with legalization. That is why the trend toward legalization is succeeding.

The wall is a part of any solution and is a reasonable thing, assuming one gets out of the new progressive open border crap and thinks rationally.

When I call for the end to the drug war, I mean all drugs, not just weed. Personally, I feel that the governments' efforts to suppress the market just succeeded in creating a black market. The black market creates more problems than the reduction(?) in ready supply alleviates. And herding people up into prisons to serve long sentences does not seem to deter any replacements to come and fill the gap.

[Spendulus]

....

When I call for the end to the drug war, I mean all drugs, not just weed. Personally, I feel that the governments' efforts to suppress the market just succeeded in creating a black market. The black market creates more problems than the reduction(?) in ready supply alleviates. And herding people up into prisons to serve long sentences does not seem to deter any replacements to come and fill the gap.

Okay that's a different matter. That's been tried in some locales around the world with mixed results.

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list. That's at the federal level.

At the state level in the USA we have various states "disobeying" the federal statutes and the feds looking the other way. They are not going to look the other way if a state tried to make all narcotics unregulated.

[Flying Hellfish]

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list.

Weed is a sched 1 narcotic, like heroin, Cocaine is a sched 2 narcotic.

Border walls don't work, migration is way to difficult to solve with a fucking wall...

[Spendulus]

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list.

Weed is a sched 1 narcotic, like heroin, Cocaine is a sched 2 narcotic.

Border walls don't work, migration is way to difficult to solve with a fucking wall...

Look, be reasonable. We can keep a lot of Mexicans employed building the wall. You know it's a good thing.

[byteball]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

[Spendulus]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

Not "West," you see.

Just some jerks with political objectives, like Soros.

Enemies of the US, and some fools that follow them.

[jerome892]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

[Spendulus]

...
Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

LOL, you got that all wrong.

Hispanic Americans have been in the USA before it was the USA. Think in terms of 500 years.

[byteball]

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

The parallel I was drawing was that all four neglect/violate post-1945 borders:
1) Blowing up Yugoslavia with pumping/propping up ethnic tensions, recognition of Kosovo;
2) Blowing up USSR into 15 "States" some of them not quite full-blown ones, with only half of them really independent;
2) Refusal to recognise Russian Crimea+Sevastopol despite them being Russian in 1945 (and Sevastopol being Soviet in 1991);
3) Propaganda that all migrants should be freely admitted on US South border.

There could be more examples. The basic idea here is: transnational capital has no borders, so stop shouting about need to defend them.

[Spendulus]

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

The parallel I was drawing was that all four neglect/violate post-1945 borders:
1) Blowing up Yugoslavia with pumping/propping up ethnic tensions, recognition of Kosovo;
2) Blowing up USSR into 15 "States" some of them not quite full-blown ones, with only half of them really independent;
2) Refusal to recognise Russian Crimea+Sevastopol despite them being Russian in 1945 (and Sevastopol being Soviet in 1991);
3) Propaganda that all migrants should be freely admitted on US South border.

There could be more examples. The basic idea here is: transnational capital has no borders, so stop shouting about need to defend them.

I may be missing something here, but why stop shouting about defending borders because of transnational capital?

How about caring about the southern US/Mexico border strictly for crime control, in terms of murder, rape, drugs?

I don't think I even know ANYBODY that cares about "transnational capital."

[nutildah]

But really, the first thing you need to know about the wall is there is no wall!

It was just a political maneuver Trump used to gain votes -- pretty standard politician tactic of promising something that sounds awesome to your base and then never delivering on it.

[dogtana]

Snipped

But really, the first thing you need to know about the wall is there is no wall!

It was just a political maneuver Trump used to gain votes -- pretty standard politician tactic of promising something that sounds awesome to your base and then never delivering on it.

Wasn't that quite clear when he said Mexico is going to pay for the wall? What a stupid statement.