Why do people hate trumps wall..

[popcorn1]

People say Trumps wall is wrong   we even have the EU saying we don't build walls and Trump is wrong for wanting to do this WHY?..

Now before you answer  i would like you to consider what you are saying..

Now we in the UK want to leave the EU and because we VOTED in a democratic vote to leave the EU want to build a wall a boarder Funny though considering they hate trump building a wall..

And this is the HYPOCRITES  in the EU we deal with..And this is another reason why i want out..

They hate Trumps wall because well the USA is it's own country so have every right to a boarder BUT the EU want it's boarders to protect their lot ..

So why do they want a boarder through Ireland ..I thought they hate walls   Oh only if it doesn't upset their money pies..

BUT USA   you are bad for wanting a boarder just like they want in IRELAND..

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[bluefirecorp_]

Pretty sure Trumpers and Brexiters are like-minded fools.

[jackg]

We have a wall, it’s called the sea .

Pretty sure Trumpers and Brexiters are like-minded fools.

There are intelligent ones though on the brexit side, much like the intelligent ones on the trump side.
A few of us are in it for the long haul. We know we’ll probably start off with a horrible deal that won’t make us want to leave because Germany want to keep the whole eu together so why would they give use a strong position to leave. After a while of hurt, they’ll eventually allow us to separate as a learning opportunity to other countries to say “The uk had a horrible time of leaving and now they’ve only just been set free, you don’t want that for your country do you?”


We also owe a lot of money to Germany and a few other EU states, they’re clearly not going to forget that they’d like that back at some point are they?

Also, GBP has only fallen by 1p against the dollar, clearly something is xpectant of a change in the negotiations otherwise it might have devalued a lot more than that.

[monchico]

People hate the "walls of Trump" because it is the supreme symbol of the differentiation of cultures and peoples, in contrast to the reigning modernism that claims that the oppressed have more rights than the “oppressors”, so the separation incites them hate these symbols.

The differentiation of peoples is something natural since the beginning of humanity, when these were united was when one surpassed the other and forced him to remain in this. In no way an uncontrolled union, even if it is a search for opportunities, is something natural or healthy for countries, as is evident throughout Europe.

[dogtana]

The rest of the EU was AGAINST you guys leaving, against Brexit, because it is convenient not to have borders (for a UK native I am surprised you spell it: boarders LOL), we have gotten used to free passage of people, goods and capital. So in fact it is Brexiters who want the border, not the EU. It is clear you want to be out of the EU, so you want the border. It is natural there are outer borders to the EU. Did you not realise this when you opted out?

The EU is acting pretty consistently here. Does not want Trump's wall and did not want a border with the UK. Plus a border is not the same as a wall. See Game of Thrones for reference.

[coins4commies]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons

1. It costs money-  Americans love to pretend there is no money for things many of us consider important but suddenly want to spend money on something like a wall.  Mexico will not pay for it.

2. It won't work- building a wall at the border won't keep out illegal immigrants because most of them fly into our country

3. Its a humanitarian disaster- if people are trying to flee a dangerous situation, a wall can cause them to be backed into a corner.  Freedom of movement is seen as a major human right to many.  yes you can make it illegal to run across a border but don't physically stop people who may be in danger.

4. Its an ecological disaster- the fragmentation of all habitat along the border would put unneded pressure on many species.  You are essentially cutting many populations into two groups

5.  not a deterrent-  a wall, like the war on drugs, would only increase the reliance on cartels for navigating the border.  They own all of the tunnels and have the means to smuggle. 

6. it sends an ugly message symbolically. - the statue of liberty has long stood as the beacan of our nation.  the wall would replace "send me your poor, huddled masses" with "stay the fuck out"

[Teleshot]

Ah yes, that's very important. Gotta make sure the wall meant to divide two countries doesn't look unwelcoming and cold to the great american children who Donald Trump saved from the evil, savage rapists he totally doesn't hate or who he totally didn't force to pay billions of dollars and impose sanctions when they refused.
Now if only we could invent some sort of a sound barrier to prevent the protesters and human rights activists complaints from the other side from reaching their ears…

[Zeth]

Ok, so we build a wall around the border…what's stopping people from walking around?

[ToRs]

This is going to be a weird game of tower defence. The most massive tower defense game in hundreds of years.

[Spendulus]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons....

Mainly international interests induce liberals to work against the wall because a porous open border would serious weaken the US. Just like it weakened Europe. That's what those international interests want.

The next "caravan" will be 100,000 or millions of people. They are organized for political purposes by people with motives.

The interest of the US is served by letting those in who we want in, not  hardened criminals and not those with certain infectious diseases.

It's our right to select who comes in, and it's not the right of whomever wants in to get in.

For just one example, a left wing radical communist like yourself. I wouldn't let you in the USA.

[coins4commies]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons....

Mainly international interests induce liberals to work against the wall because a porous open border would serious weaken the US. Just like it weakened Europe. That's what those international interests want.

The next "caravan" will be 100,000 or millions of people. They are organized for political purposes by people with motives.

The interest of the US is served by letting those in who we want in, not  hardened criminals and not those with certain infectious diseases.

It's our right to select who comes in, and it's not the right of whomever wants in to get in.

For just one example, a left wing radical communist like yourself. I wouldn't let you in the USA.

Are you sure Europe's issues can all be blamed on Schengen?  Nothing to do with the 2008 crisis or the aging population?

Future caravans will be bigger and bigger largely because of climate change.  We can expect hundreds of millions of climate refugees worldwide by the turn of the century as there will be more flooding, droughts, and failed states because of all of that.  I feel like the US should aim to have the largest acceptance rate.  Why should any other country be better equipped to handle refugees than our large nation that was founded on these very principles?
https://reliefweb.int/report/world/climate-migrants-might-reach-one-billion-2050


We have a very low population density and 100,000 refugees is hardly a drop in the bucket.  Our aging population demographics could be strengthened by a new influx of immigrants. 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-miller-immigration/aging-united-states-must-get-the-economics-right-on-immigration-idUSKCN1BP184

Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new and reminds me of nazi Germany's desire to create a supreme race of people.  The US was built on multiculturalism and the quote on the statue of liberty should still hold merit.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/30/solve-migrant-caravan-problem-help-us-economy-work-visas-column/1811074002/

I respect your honesty but the idea that you would discriminate against someone because their political views are different from yours is un-American.  Your desire to create a nation of people who only hold the views you hold is bigoted.  I would never suggest the denial of someone simply because we have difference of political opinion. 

A lot of people come to America to avoid that same sort of political persecution you are suggesting.  Have you no respect for diversity? Shame.  Your sense of urgency is alarming.  Why do you feel so threatened in the first place?  If your ideas are correct and righteous, shouldn't you have faith that they will win out and withstand the test of the time?

[TECSHARE]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons....

Mainly international interests induce liberals to work against the wall because a porous open border would serious weaken the US. Just like it weakened Europe. That's what those international interests want.

The next "caravan" will be 100,000 or millions of people. They are organized for political purposes by people with motives.

The interest of the US is served by letting those in who we want in, not  hardened criminals and not those with certain infectious diseases.

It's our right to select who comes in, and it's not the right of whomever wants in to get in.

For just one example, a left wing radical communist like yourself. I wouldn't let you in the USA.

Are you sure Europe's issues can all be blamed on Schengen?  Nothing to do with the 2008 crisis or the aging population?

Future caravans will be bigger and bigger largely because of climate change.  We can expect hundreds of millions of climate refugees worldwide by the turn of the century as there will be more flooding, droughts, and failed states because of all of that.  I feel like the US should aim to have the largest acceptance rate.  Why should any other country be better equipped to handle refugees than our large nation that was founded on these very principles?
https://reliefweb.int/report/world/climate-migrants-might-reach-one-billion-2050


We have a very low population density and 100,000 refugees is hardly a drop in the bucket.  Our aging population demographics could be strengthened by a new influx of immigrants. 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-miller-immigration/aging-united-states-must-get-the-economics-right-on-immigration-idUSKCN1BP184

Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new and reminds me of nazi Germany's desire to create a supreme race of people.  The US was built on multiculturalism and the quote on the statue of liberty should still hold merit.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/30/solve-migrant-caravan-problem-help-us-economy-work-visas-column/1811074002/

I respect your honesty but the idea that you would discriminate against someone because their political views are different from yours is un-American.  Your desire to create a nation of people who only hold the views you hold is bigoted.  I would never suggest the denial of someone simply because we have difference of political opinion. 

A lot of people come to America to avoid that same sort of political persecution you are suggesting.  Have you no respect for diversity? Shame.  Your sense of urgency is alarming.  Why do you feel so threatened in the first place?  If your ideas are correct and righteous, shouldn't you have faith that they will win out and withstand the test of the time?

I see so you care about political discrimination do you? I can't remember you ever voicing a single concern over violence against Trump supporters and conservatives over the past couple years... funny how that rule suddenly changes isn't it? It is almost like your mind is constructed under a Post Modernist rubric where everything is pliable to the point that rules don't even exist any more, as long as you can explain it away!

Overrunning a nation with invaders is an ANCIENT battle tactic. This isn't a new game, just new faces with new toys.


https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-Kalergi-Plan

This is the template being followed.

[BADecker]

Trump doesn't care. He is doing what is best for the people. If he makes a mistake, he knows he will be gone in two terms or less.

People are stupid. They look at the wall through eyes without understanding.

[Spendulus]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons....

Mainly international interests induce liberals to work against the wall because a porous open border would serious weaken the US. Just like it weakened Europe. That's what those international interests want.

The next "caravan" will be 100,000 or millions of people. They are organized for political purposes by people with motives.

The interest of the US is served by letting those in who we want in, not  hardened criminals and not those with certain infectious diseases.

It's our right to select who comes in, and it's not the right of whomever wants in to get in.

For just one example, a left wing radical communist like yourself. I wouldn't let you in the USA.

.....
Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new and reminds me of nazi Germany's desire to create a supreme race of people.  The US was built on multiculturalism and the quote on the statue of liberty should still hold merit.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/30/solve-migrant-caravan-problem-help-us-economy-work-visas-column/1811074002/

I respect your honesty but the idea that you would discriminate against someone because their political views are different from yours is un-American.  Your desire to create a nation of people who only hold the views you hold is bigoted.  I would never suggest the denial of someone simply because we have difference of political opinion.  

A lot of people come to America to avoid that same sort of political persecution you are suggesting.  Have you no respect for diversity? Shame.  Your sense of urgency is alarming.  Why do you feel so threatened in the first place?  If your ideas are correct and righteous, shouldn't you have faith that they will win out and withstand the test of the time?

No, you are definitely one I would not let in, but you have not understood the reasons why.  That's fine with me. I wouldn't let you in because of your constant lying. As an example, your words, totally made up....

Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new

You obviously don't know or care about the actual facts about Ellis Island. For example, people with turberculosis were turned back there. Good policy, right? Accept only healthy people? And you don't know about country quotas either, right?

Of course you knew about those things, you're just lying because it suits you.

As for future caravans of climate change, sure...buddy....

We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

[coins4commies]

The US already has a border.  People hate Trump's wall for many reasons....

Mainly international interests induce liberals to work against the wall because a porous open border would serious weaken the US. Just like it weakened Europe. That's what those international interests want.

The next "caravan" will be 100,000 or millions of people. They are organized for political purposes by people with motives.

The interest of the US is served by letting those in who we want in, not  hardened criminals and not those with certain infectious diseases.

It's our right to select who comes in, and it's not the right of whomever wants in to get in.

For just one example, a left wing radical communist like yourself. I wouldn't let you in the USA.

.....
Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new and reminds me of nazi Germany's desire to create a supreme race of people.  The US was built on multiculturalism and the quote on the statue of liberty should still hold merit.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/30/solve-migrant-caravan-problem-help-us-economy-work-visas-column/1811074002/

I respect your honesty but the idea that you would discriminate against someone because their political views are different from yours is un-American.  Your desire to create a nation of people who only hold the views you hold is bigoted.  I would never suggest the denial of someone simply because we have difference of political opinion.  

A lot of people come to America to avoid that same sort of political persecution you are suggesting.  Have you no respect for diversity? Shame.  Your sense of urgency is alarming.  Why do you feel so threatened in the first place?  If your ideas are correct and righteous, shouldn't you have faith that they will win out and withstand the test of the time?

No, you are definitely one I would not let in, but you have not understood the reasons why.  That's fine with me. I wouldn't let you in because of your constant lying. As an example, your words, totally made up....

Historically, people showed up at Ellis Island and were widely accepted.  Your idea of social engineering and selection of people based on racial quotas and an "ideal immigrant" is very new

You obviously don't know or care about the actual facts about Ellis Island. For example, people with turberculosis were turned back there. Good policy, right? Accept only healthy people? And you don't know about country quotas either, right?

Of course you knew about those things, you're just lying because it suits you.

As for future caravans of climate change, sure...buddy....

We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

If I said something that was false, why would you assume I am lying?  Its the internet.  Why would I lie just to prove a point when you can easily access the facts.  If someone says something wrong, why not just assume they are misinformed instead of assuming they are evil and trying to trick you with a lie?

  I have no opposition of health screening but we aren't doing that anymore.  I'd love to setup ellis island centers all along the southern border with enough staffing and capacity to process anyone who wanted to come and give them health screening.  That would be fantastic.  Why do you assume people who disagree with you want to spread infectious diseases?

We are at the bridge, THIS is us getting to it.  Honduras has suffered a historic drought at the same time of this instability.  Same with Syria and the horn of Africa. 

[Spendulus]

...,

  I have no opposition of health screening but we aren't doing that anymore.  ....

Standard questions and issues on the immigration forms, dude.

Every applicant....

So you are wrong. Now be honest. You are either for unimpeded illegal entry, which MEANS no health screening, or you are for legal immigration, which means health screening. And we know you are for unimpeded illegal immigration, so stop the lying ("saying things that are false"/"being misinformed" blah-blah-blah) about being for health screening.

....
We are at the bridge, THIS is us getting to it.  Honduras has suffered a historic drought at the same time of this instability.  Same with Syria and the horn of Africa.  

No, it's not. Again, you are wrong.

You just can't slap blame on climate change for every stupid political agenda item you are told to believe in over and over.

The Government of Honduras declared State of Emergency in the Dry Corridor from August 15th until December 31st, 2018, to address the lack of water provoking a loss of crops. The drought, triggered by El Niño, affects 145 municipalities from 13 departments.

El Nino is a standard, ordinary and periodic weather event.
https://reliefweb.int/disaster/dr-2018-000106-slv

What are El Niño and La Niña?
El Niño and La Niña are opposite phases of a natural climate pattern across the tropical Pacific Ocean that swings back and forth every 3-7 years on average. Together, they are called ENSO (pronounced “en-so”), which is short for El Niño-Southern Oscillation.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/el-niño-and-la-niña-frequently-asked-questions

The ENSO pattern in the tropical Pacific can be in one of three states: El Niño, Neutral, or La Niña. El Niño (the warm phase) and La Niña (the cool phase) lead to significant differences from the average ocean temperatures, winds, surface pressure, and rainfall across parts of the tropical Pacific. Neutral indicates that conditions are near their long-term average.

[Nikivanov346]

This is going to be a weird game of tower defence. The most massive tower defense game in hundreds of years.

Only it is not a game. Confrontation and standoff on the border. This wall will only become a reason of conflicts but won't affect the illigal migration traffic. These measures will increase the cost of help for illigal border crossing as I think.

[HayaH]

I'm baffled by those who may support forward thinking initiatives such as Bitcoin and yet cheer Trump and his wall. There is nothing decentralized nor modern about a wall, it's totally old school and quite ineffective to boot. While should we look for information and currency to flow freely from nation to nation but block people from doing so? It won't stop illegal immigration - it'll cost a bunch, cause disputes and border issues, harm the environment,make people fleeing dependent upon criminals for passage, destabilize border towns on both sides, potentially trap people if any country becomes too dangerous; alienate allies on the continent, divide south America from North America and otherwise isn't any good for us as a species. Heck, that whole "me first isolationism" stuff that Trump spews is counter to the world that Satoshi envisioned when he / she / they created bitcoin.

Decentralized, global, transparent system......

You're either for the future or against it....

either for walls or for bridges....

I can only guess what Satoshi would likely say about Trump and his wall.

[Spendulus]

I'm baffled by those who may support forward thinking initiatives such as Bitcoin and yet cheer Trump and his wall...

So I need a passport to go to Mexico but Mexicans don't need a passport to come to the US?

[KingScorpio]

People hate the "walls of Trump" because it is the supreme symbol of the differentiation of cultures and peoples, in contrast to the reigning modernism that claims that the oppressed have more rights than the “oppressors”, so the separation incites them hate these symbols.

The differentiation of peoples is something natural since the beginning of humanity, when these were united was when one surpassed the other and forced him to remain in this. In no way an uncontrolled union, even if it is a search for opportunities, is something natural or healthy for countries, as is evident throughout Europe.

well mexicans and aztecs also differentiated between themselves (culturally and geographically) and the tribes that they enslaved and sacrificed to their gods

[coins4commies]

...,

  I have no opposition of health screening but we aren't doing that anymore.  ....

Standard questions and issues on the immigration forms, dude.

Every applicant....

So you are wrong.

The current "legal" immigration process is not reasonable and keeps most of these people out.  There is no point in submitting an application when all that does it make it so you can't come.

To qualify for permanent resident status through the Diversity Visa Lottery Program, known commonly as the green card lottery, you must be immigrating from a country with a low rate of immigration to the US. If less than 50,000 people from your home country have immigrated to the US in the past 5 years, then you may be eligible to submit an application.

ok so you have to win a lottery to get in.  The problem is that the quotas have decreased continuously and countries that have serious issues like drought are going to have more people applying than what the quota is. The application process is also expensive while the people are coming because they are poor . I wouldn't recommend poor people spending money they don't have on an application for a lottery. So then we look at the asylum route...

The FY2018 allocation for Latin America and the Caribbean is 1,500. FY2017 admissions totaled
1,688. FY2018 admissions from this region are expected to include Cubans as well as minors
from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras gaining admission under the Central American
Minors (CAM) refugee program (see “Refugee Processing Priorities”).

Well the ceiling has been lowered to 1500 people from ALL OF LATIN AMERICA when there may be millions who want to come.  Really some kind of joke.  This is how they make legal immigration impossible.  Telling people to stay home and apply is essentially telling them to never come. 

This leaves the only reasonable option to enter the US and plead your case in court when you get caught on an overstay. 

Now be honest. You are either for unimpeded illegal entry, which MEANS no health screening, or you are for legal immigration, which means health screening. And we know you are for unimpeded illegal immigration, so stop the lying ("saying things that are false"/"being misinformed" blah-blah-blah) about being for health screening.

To be clear, our current system encourages illegal immigration as the only real option.  If you support the status quo, then you are for illegal immigration.   

I am for a reasonable reform to the current system which is really just a deterrent to immigration.  I'm in favor of the ellis island way.  I think we should have large immigration centers with a lot of staff and facilities setup all along the border to receive these people, conduct health screenings, get their information, and send them on their way. Eliminate the quotas for countries in crisis.

When you have a problem, you have to try to solve it by addressing the root causes and we have an illegal immigration problem not because these are bad people, but because they are desperate, have to come here, and don't have a reasonable legal pathway.  I am certain they would take the legal path if they had confidence it was fair and would allow them in.

....
We are at the bridge, THIS is us getting to it.  Honduras has suffered a historic drought at the same time of this instability.  Same with Syria and the horn of Africa.  

No, it's not. Again, you are wrong.

You just can't slap blame on climate change for every stupid political agenda item you are told to believe in over and over.

 
The idea is that the effects of el nino are exacerbated by climate change, and even if this event had nothing to do with climate change, it shows us how dramatic shifts in climate can disrupt agriculture and turn the people who rely on it into migrants.  It would be even more alarming if we can't deal with a simple el nino event with major climate crises on the way.    Since we refused to prevent climate change, we need to start shifting into response mode and think about how we will deal with the hundreds of millions misplaced by rising sea levels and food shortages.  Coral reef ecosystems are also dying with ocean acidification. 

If the areas where food can be produced move or shift, there HAS to be a way for the people who rely on that food to move as well.

[Spendulus]

....
The idea is that the effects of el nino are exacerbated by climate change....

More lying. It just happens you cannot fool me with this talk because I know a bit about El Nino and those weather patterns. Deal with it; it is a normal weather pattern and a normal drought. You can't just lie your way around the issue. Please stop making things up.

...,

  I have no opposition of health screening but we aren't doing that anymore.  ....

Standard questions and issues on the immigration forms, dude.
Every applicant....
So you are wrong.

The current "legal" immigration process is not reasonable and keeps most of these people out.  There is no point in submitting an application when all that does it make it so you can't come.
....

I know a hundred people who came through the legal immigration, and a dozen in my immediate family. So you are lying/making things up yet again.

....Coral reef ecosystems are also dying with ocean acidification.  ...

Or are the coral reefs changing and not dying? Is that another subject you are wrong on? Regardless, I'm happy to let anyone living under the water on a coral reef into the USA.

....
The current "legal" immigration process is not reasonable and keeps most of these people out.  There is no point in submitting an application when all that does it make it so you can't come.....The FY2018 allocation for Latin America and the Caribbean is 1,500. FY2017 admissions totaled 1,688. ...

More lying/mistaken shit. Venezuela ALONE was 61,000.

Just check Wikipedia.

According to the 2016 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics, the United States admitted 1.18 million legal immigrants in 2016.[5] Of these, 20% were family-sponsored, 47% were the immediate relatives of U.S. citizens, 12% were employment-based preferences, 4% were part of the Diversity Immigrant Visa program, and 13% were refugees and/or asylum seekers.[5]

[Zeth]

I expect the US to be part of the new "Axis" with the world revolving around nationalism...

[coins4commies]

More lying. It just happens you cannot fool me with this talk because I know a bit about El Nino and those weather patterns. Deal with it; it is a normal weather pattern and a normal drought. You can't just lie your way around the issue. Please stop making things up.

I have no reason to make stuff up.  You can know about normal el nino and it can be exacerbated by climate change. Both can be true. Take a look at this fact sheet that summarizes climate change impacts for honduras

• Increased frequency and intensity of El Niño/La
Niña cycles.

That is listed under changes they have seen since 1960
https://www.climatelinks.org/sites/default/files/asset/document/2017_USAID%20ATLAS_Climate%20Change%20Risk%20Profile_Honduras.pdf

I know a hundred people who came through the legal immigration, and a dozen in my immediate family. So you are lying/making things up yet again.

This doesn't go against my point that there are still large numbers of people with no practical path of immigration.  There is a difference bettween that and "no one can immigrate".  

Or are the coral reefs changing and not dying? Is that another subject you are wrong on? Regardless, I'm happy to let anyone living under the water on a coral reef into the USA.

Good because hundreds of millions of people currently rely on the life underwater on coral reefs.  

....
The current "legal" immigration process is not reasonable and keeps most of these people out.  There is no point in submitting an application when all that does it make it so you can't come.....The FY2018 allocation for Latin America and the Caribbean is 1,500. FY2017 admissions totaled 1,688. ...

More lying/mistaken shit. Venezuela ALONE was 61,000.

Just check Wikipedia.

According to the 2016 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics, the United States admitted 1.18 million legal immigrants in 2016.[5] Of these, 20% were family-sponsored, 47% were the immediate relatives of U.S. citizens, 12% were employment-based preferences, 4% were part of the Diversity Immigrant Visa program, and 13% were refugees and/or asylum seekers.[5]

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31269.pdf
Ok so notice my quote came from FY2018 and FY2017 and your stats came from 2016, before Trump was president.  No one is saying we don't have any immigration.  Its just not an easy process especially if you are poor and under duress.  Anyone who can afford the time and resources to go through our legal immigration process is not really that desperate after all.  The caravaners are DESPERATE.

Trump's agenda is to shift our immigration policy to be "merit based" which means 12% employment based would be fine but the 4% of immigrants we are talking about would be shut out.

13% were refugees in 2016- The problem is most of the caravaners don't count as refugees by the  definition that the US uses, so if they apply without entering first, they will be declined because they are trying to escape violence that is not being directed at them because of race, nationality or political opinion.  

4% were diversity immigrant visa or "lottery" winners-  We take around 11,000 from Honduras.  Out of millions who want to come.

So what are desperate people from Honduras with no family in the US and no special skills supposed to do? Take the chance that they will win the lottery? Or enter the US and argue their refugee status in court after "catch and release"

[Dawson]

Once Trump said:

I will build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall.

He didn't know, that Great Wall is already build in China over a thousand years ago?

[Spendulus]

... ...
So what are desperate people from Honduras with no family in the US and no special skills supposed to do? Take the chance that they will win the lottery? Or enter the US and argue their refugee status in court after "catch and release"

Are you just trying to make idiotic statements?

Look at the diaspora of people fleeing Venezuela, a communist paradise.

They are going all over.

The US is not the only country.

[JealousCup]

People say Trumps wall is wrong   we even have the EU saying we don't build walls and Trump is wrong for wanting to do this WHY?..

Now before you answer  i would like you to consider what you are saying..

Now we in the UK want to leave the EU and because we VOTED in a democratic vote to leave the EU want to build a wall a boarder Funny though considering they hate trump building a wall..

And this is the HYPOCRITES  in the EU we deal with..And this is another reason why i want out..

They hate Trumps wall because well the USA is it's own country so have every right to a boarder BUT the EU want it's boarders to protect their lot ..

So why do they want a boarder through Ireland ..I thought they hate walls   Oh only if it doesn't upset their money pies..

BUT USA   you are bad for wanting a boarder just like they want in IRELAND..

The UK wanted all the benefits of staying in the EU without sharing the burden with the member countries, so the reaction of the EU is quite understandable. But I don't get why people want to nuild walls in places which were created free of access. After all, if a disaster was to occur on a global scale, especially in developed countries, they will retract their arguments about any wall because their survival would be in jeopardy. Except, of course, if they finally find a way to achieve transhumanism.

[Spendulus]

More lying. It just happens you cannot fool me with this talk because I know a bit about El Nino and those weather patterns. Deal with it; it is a normal weather pattern and a normal drought. You can't just lie your way around the issue. Please stop making things up.

I have no reason to make stuff up.  You can know about normal el nino and it can be exacerbated by climate change. Both can be true. Take a look at this fact sheet that summarizes climate change impacts for honduras

• Increased frequency and intensity of El Niño/La
Niña cycles.

That is listed under changes they have seen since 1960
https://www.climatelinks.org/sites/default/files/asset/document/2017_USAID%20ATLAS_Climate%20Change%20Risk%20Profile_Honduras.pdf

This is not a document that says what you claim. Not at all.

If you actually want to claim climate change then substantiate it. Show a statistically significant variation from the long term norm, separated from any regional weather patterns, and from 60-80 year ocean cyclic variations. Your link does not do that, in fact it does not prove any claim. It only makes an assertion, which you repeated blindly.

Let's go to the opinion of Dr. Gavin Schmidt, one of the most rabid warmer types around. Here is what he says about El Nino assuming more intense "climate change".

....climate models differ in their assessment of future El Niño events. Some suggest the ENSO cycle will become more intense, others say it will weaken, and some find there will be little change. According to Schmidt, “There is a very large variation in ENSO statistics (frequency/magnitude) over time, and so detecting a shift due to climate change is very challenging. Models as a whole are all over the shop, and so it doesn’t fill one with great confidence.”


Yet more lying/making things up.

....
There is no point in submitting an application when all that does it make it so you can't come.....The FY2018 allocation for Latin America and the Caribbean is 1,500. FY2017 admissions totaled 1,688. ...
.....
Ok so notice my quote came from FY2018 and FY2017 and your stats came from 2016, before Trump was president....

Let's see what the Washington Post has to say about your claims.

Last year, 27,629 Venezuelans petitioned U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services for asylum, an 88 percent increase from 2016 and up from 2,181 in 2014. So far this year, the number of Venezuelans who have applied — nearly all of them in Miami — is almost three times as great as any other nationality, according to the latest USCIS asylum data.

Unlike the Central Americans who wade illegally across the Rio Grande and turn themselves in to U.S. border guards, the Venezuelans typically land at the Miami airport with tourist and business visas.

Wait, that's just Venezuelans....and there's a lot more to Central America than that....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/even-as-trump-tightens-asylum-rules-thousands-of-venezuelans-find-a-warm-welcome-in-miami/2018/05/15/5e747fec-52cf-11e8-a551-5b648abe29ef_story.html?utm_term=.d81fe6e8e71c

Maybe you were making assertions that sounded like they were about all the immigration from Honduras, while citing numbers for the one program that only represents 4% of it?

Is there ANYTHING TRUE IN ANYTHING YOU SAY?

[coins4commies]

This is not a document that says what you claim. Not at all.

If you actually want to claim climate change then substantiate it. Show a statistically significant variation from the long term norm, separated from any regional weather patterns, and from 60-80 year ocean cyclic variations. Your link does not do that, in fact it does not prove any claim. It only makes an assertion, which you repeated blindly.

Let's go to the opinion of Dr. Gavin Schmidt, one of the most rabid warmer types around. Here is what he says about El Nino assuming more intense "climate change".

....climate models differ in their assessment of future El Niño events. Some suggest the ENSO cycle will become more intense, others say it will weaken, and some find there will be little change. According to Schmidt, “There is a very large variation in ENSO statistics (frequency/magnitude) over time, and so detecting a shift due to climate change is very challenging. Models as a whole are all over the shop, and so it doesn’t fill one with great confidence.”


Yet more lying/making things up.

Finding a source that disagrees with mine (and the consensus) doesn't mean I "made stuff up".  This actually sheds some light on why so many deniers think scientists are lying. Science, especially climate science, doesn't operate by "proving" things.  Thats the reason why it has so much utility.  Science is about forming theories based on what the body of evidence points towards. 

You have it backwards with what you are telling me to do.  To come up with a claim and then go cherrypicking for data that can "prove" that claim.  Thats pseudoscience.

You are also getting too caught in the weeds.   Regardless of whether or not this is caused by climate change, these people are leaving, climate was a factor, and climate science suggests there will be many more situations like this in the near future due to climate change. 

Let's see what the Washington Post has to say about your claims.

Last year, 27,629 Venezuelans petitioned U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services for asylum, an 88 percent increase from 2016 and up from 2,181 in 2014. So far this year, the number of Venezuelans who have applied — nearly all of them in Miami — is almost three times as great as any other nationality, according to the latest USCIS asylum data.

Unlike the Central Americans who wade illegally across the Rio Grande and turn themselves in to U.S. border guards, the Venezuelans typically land at the Miami airport with tourist and business visas.

Wait, that's just Venezuelans....and there's a lot more to Central America than that....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/even-as-trump-tightens-asylum-rules-thousands-of-venezuelans-find-a-warm-welcome-in-miami/2018/05/15/5e747fec-52cf-11e8-a551-5b648abe29ef_story.html?utm_term=.d81fe6e8e71c

Maybe you were making assertions that sounded like they were about all the immigration from Honduras, while citing numbers for the one program that only represents 4% of it?

Is there ANYTHING TRUE IN ANYTHING YOU SAY?

You are getting off-topic by bringing venezuela into this.  Its a different situation that isn't completely relevant to this thread. 
1. Venezuela has a lot more wealthy, educated people who can get jobs in the us
2. Venezuelans are being accepted as political assylum seekers because of socialism in venezuela
3. Venezuelans can afford to get tourist visas and fly to miami

If it was that easy, do you really think the Hondurans would prefer to walk thousands of miles just to break the law?  Why do you think they are going through so much trouble?

The 4% number is the only one important because that is the only program Hondurans in the caravans have access to from Honduras.   They don't have the education or special skills to get a job in the US ahead of time.

[Spendulus]

This is not a document that says what you claim. Not at all.

If you actually want to claim climate change then substantiate it. Show a statistically significant variation from the long term norm, separated from any regional weather patterns, and from 60-80 year ocean cyclic variations. Your link does not do that, in fact it does not prove any claim. It only makes an assertion, which you repeated blindly.

Let's go to the opinion of Dr. Gavin Schmidt, one of the most rabid warmer types around. Here is what he says about El Nino assuming more intense "climate change".

....climate models differ in their assessment of future El Niño events. Some suggest the ENSO cycle will become more intense, others say it will weaken, and some find there will be little change. According to Schmidt, “There is a very large variation in ENSO statistics (frequency/magnitude) over time, and so detecting a shift due to climate change is very challenging. Models as a whole are all over the shop, and so it doesn’t fill one with great confidence.”


Yet more lying/making things up.

Finding a source that disagrees with mine (and the consensus) doesn't mean I "made stuff up".  

....

Yes, actually you did make stuff up. Because I'm using the consensus to refute you. You misrepresented "the consensus."

I quoted directly Gavin Schmidt, he's right at the core of the few people that write up and direct what the "consensus" believes. Here's another direct comment from Schmidt.

...Gavin Schmidt, director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, estimated that El Niño accounted for 0.07˚C of the above average warming that occurred in 2015...

You claimed that climate change made the El Nino stronger. No, it didn't. And the El Nino contributed only seven hundredths of one degree to the weather pattern.

You don't even understand the subject. You have it exactly backwards.... You don't even know what the consensus of scientific opinion is on a subject, but you are quick to claim it's what supports your argument.

That's what we call making things up.

....
.....

Maybe you were making assertions that sounded like they were about all the immigration from Honduras, while citing numbers for the one program that only represents 4% of it?

Is there ANYTHING TRUE IN ANYTHING YOU SAY?

....
The 4% number is the only one important because that is the only program Hondurans in the caravans have access to from Honduras.   They don't have the education or special skills to get a job in the US ahead of time.
[/quote]

You are once more misrepresenting the actual facts very substantially.

Many, many other Hondurans did emigrate as family members of US citizens and through the other mechanisms. You misrepresented the facts by leaving that out.

Some did not qualify or were too lazy to try. They noticed that Soros et.al. was organizing a giant publicity stunt to crash the US border and decided to get in on it. The newspaper adds for the Caravan said they'd get free food and cash. So they headed north.

It is certain we don't want them. We definitely don't want the 500 criminals in that group. But you do. You've kept quiet about those criminals, haven't you?

[HayaH]

I'm baffled by those who may support forward thinking initiatives such as Bitcoin and yet cheer Trump and his wall...

So I need a passport to go to Mexico but Mexicans don't need a passport to come to the US?

It's not a passport policy I'm questioning, but rather why those people who would support a forward thinking, global, free, decentralized project like Bitcoin would ever yell America First or support Trump's wall. It's just completely against everything crypto currency stands for from where I'm standing; hence it baffled me a tad bit. That's all .

[Spendulus]

I'm baffled by those who may support forward thinking initiatives such as Bitcoin and yet cheer Trump and his wall...

So I need a passport to go to Mexico but Mexicans don't need a passport to come to the US?

It's not a passport policy I'm questioning, but rather why those people who would support a forward thinking, global, free, decentralized project like Bitcoin would ever yell America First or support Trump's wall. It's just completely against everything crypto currency stands for from where I'm standing; hence it baffled me a tad bit. That's all .

Good question.

You see, Bitcoin isn't for total free trade and movement. It's a very strict rule set, for example, protocols...

Bitcoin does not allow double spending, eg, stealing. Border walls prevent criminals, hence prevent, stealing.

The blockchain preserves the unique identity of transactions, and their history. The border wall forces people to show their unique identity and their history, including what they may want to conceal, such as criminal history, or communicable diseases. A person might be refused entry at the border, just as miners might refuse an illegitimate transaction.

Except for the rule set being applied by a government instead of peer to peer, the border wall implements a similar set of restrictions that allows freedom of movement, instead of restricting it.

Side note, I would much prefer a decentralized identity verification process through blockchain than national ID.

[coins4commies]

Yes, actually you did make stuff up. Because I'm using the consensus to refute you. You misrepresented "the consensus."

I quoted directly Gavin Schmidt, he's right at the core of the few people that write up and direct what the "consensus" believes. Here's another direct comment from Schmidt.

...Gavin Schmidt, director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, estimated that El Niño accounted for 0.07˚C of the above average warming that occurred in 2015...

You claimed that climate change made the El Nino stronger. No, it didn't. And the El Nino contributed only seven hundredths of one degree to the weather pattern.

You don't even understand the subject. You have it exactly backwards.... You don't even know what the consensus of scientific opinion is on a subject, but you are quick to claim it's what supports your argument.

That's what we call making things up.

So this is something entirely different than what I am talking about.  Bolded quote talks about how much of the global average increase in temperature El nino was responsible for.  It doesn't say anything about the strength of el nino.  It definitely doesn't suggest that climate change wouldn't make el nino stronger.  The quote isn't even about that.

The idea is not that warming affects el nino.  The idea is that warming melts ice, changes ocean temperatures and sets off a series of events that changes climate around the world.  Global climate change.  Not everywhere gets warmer, many places actually get cooler.

The idea is that global climate change leads to an increase in extreme el nino events.  That could mean stronger, weaker, longer, or shorter.  There is consensus that it WILL affect ENSO but the reason there isn't a consensus on HOW it will affect it is because ENSO is complex and affected by so many variables.  This is generally the problem with modeling climate change in general.  I'm an atmospheric scientist and only wanted to keep this out of the weeds for your sake.
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/blogs/enso/enso-climate-change-headache
Really good article with a great analogy.

You missed my main point while in the weeds...

You are also getting too caught in the weeds.   Regardless of whether or not this is caused by climate change, these people are leaving, climate was a factor, and climate science suggests there will be many more situations like this in the near future due to climate change.  

This is really just a sample of what is yet to come.  Its not easy to identify nor is it so important to pinpoint if any single event is due to climate change.  Its more important to think about these types of events as the types of events we will see more often in a world of climate change.  

....
.....

Maybe you were making assertions that sounded like they were about all the immigration from Honduras, while citing numbers for the one program that only represents 4% of it?

Is there ANYTHING TRUE IN ANYTHING YOU SAY?

....
The 4% number is the only one important because that is the only program Hondurans in the caravans have access to from Honduras.   They don't have the education or special skills to get a job in the US ahead of time.

You are once more misrepresenting the actual facts very substantially.

Many, many other Hondurans did emigrate as family members of US citizens and through the other mechanisms. You misrepresented the facts by leaving that out.

Some did not qualify or were too lazy to try. They noticed that Soros et.al. was organizing a giant publicity stunt to crash the US border and decided to get in on it. The newspaper adds for the Caravan said they'd get free food and cash. So they headed north.

It is certain we don't want them. We definitely don't want the 500 criminals in that group. But you do. You've kept quiet about those criminals, haven't you?
[/quote]
I left those out because they aren't relevant to people who don't have sponsors in the US; family or work.   I don't believe in conspiracy theories and don't usually entertain them, but if Soros did that to press the issue, bring attention and put pressure on the government to reform the system, then great.  That should be a great thing for everyone who doesn't want illegal immigration by exposing a system that encourages it.   People will always take the path of least resistance. Why not make that the legal path?

Why should risking your freedom, safety, health, everything crossing illegally be the easier option?

[Spendulus]

....
I left those out because they aren't relevant to people who don't have sponsors in the US; family or work. ...

People will always take the path of least resistance. Why not make that the legal path?

Why should risking your freedom, safety, health, everything crossing illegally be the easier option?

So you left out ALL the other everyday methods by which Hondurans do get into the USA legally. You left out ALL the problems with this group, like the fact there are 500 criminals in the group. You left out the problem with group members having possible communicable diseases. You ignored completely other countries that might take them. Then you tried to argue they were "climate change refugees," and that was a complete laugh. Then you make an unverified assumption that they ALL had no other recourse for US immigration except illegal entry.

So after mis stating the facts repeatedly, and getting caught repeatedly, then making a plea for sympathy for the down trodden, your argument now is simply that we should have an open border policy, kind of,

"Just Because."

[coins4commies]

Yes I left out all of the examples of people who had special reasons why they might be able to migrate to the US legally and focused on the desperate poor people that the caravans we are discussing consist of.  Yes I left out Venezuelans, doctors, and family members of Americans because those are not the majority of people rushing across our southern border.  Those are not the majority of the people who would be affected by a wall.  I want everyone to have a pathway to migrate to the US.  If that is what you are calling open borders then fine, I want open borders because that is what our country was built on.  Its such a stretch so suggest anyone is against testing for diseases or catching criminals. 

If someone commits a crime, they should be prosecuted and every person could be screened for disease if they didn't have to risk their freedom by doing so.

[Spendulus]

Yes I left out all of the examples of people who had special reasons why they might be able to migrate to the US legally and focused on the desperate poor people that the caravans we are discussing consist of.  Yes I left out Venezuelans, doctors, and family members of Americans because those are not the majority of people rushing across our southern border.  Those are not the majority of the people who would be affected by a wall.  I want everyone to have a pathway to migrate to the US.  If that is what you are calling open borders then fine, I want open borders because that is what our country was built on.  Its such a stretch so suggest anyone is against testing for diseases or catching criminals. 

If someone commits a crime, they should be prosecuted and every person could be screened for disease if they didn't have to risk their freedom by doing so.

So you made up the entire set of false facts to assert your agenda driven wishes.

But you will add a couple exclusions now?

So what would you do about the 500 criminals in the caravan?

[coins4commies]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

[Spendulus]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

No it is not. In fact that's an incredibly insensitive thing to say for one who claims to be so sensitive to others.

You blithely say things like that only perhaps because you don't personally know the violence along the board. You are remote from people being raped and murdered by criminals that cross back and forth freely across the US border with Mexico.

[coins4commies]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

No it is not. In fact that's an incredibly insensitive thing to say for one who claims to be so sensitive to others.

You blithely say things like that only perhaps because you don't personally know the violence along the board. You are remote from people being raped and murdered by criminals that cross back and forth freely across the US border with Mexico.

My entire stance is based on the violence.  That is the same type of violence these people are trying to escape.  Its the same argument as saying refugees were full of embedded ISIS. 

[Spendulus]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

No it is not. In fact that's an incredibly insensitive thing to say for one who claims to be so sensitive to others.

You blithely say things like that only perhaps because you don't personally know the violence along the board. You are remote from people being raped and murdered by criminals that cross back and forth freely across the US border with Mexico.

My entire stance is based on the violence.  That is the same type of violence these people are trying to escape.  Its the same argument as saying refugees were full of embedded ISIS. 

No it is not an argument intended to invoke fear in people.

That's a total bullshit pitch and you know it.

Sure we've got systems to catch criminals, but that's after they murder or rape or steal, not before. The whole point is to not let them in so those things don't happen.

[coins4commies]

The same thing we do when "criminals" show up in a visa application or at the airport.  We already have systems in place for catching criminals.  That is part of the conversation solely to invoke fear in the hearts of people who are otherwise morally active.

No it is not. In fact that's an incredibly insensitive thing to say for one who claims to be so sensitive to others.

You blithely say things like that only perhaps because you don't personally know the violence along the board. You are remote from people being raped and murdered by criminals that cross back and forth freely across the US border with Mexico.

My entire stance is based on the violence.  That is the same type of violence these people are trying to escape.  Its the same argument as saying refugees were full of embedded ISIS. 

No it is not an argument intended to invoke fear in people.

That's a total bullshit pitch and you know it.

Sure we've got systems to catch criminals, but that's after they murder or rape or steal, not before. The whole point is to not let them in so those things don't happen.

That myth has been debunked. The fear is irrational. 
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
Here we subscribe to the idea that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  If you are really concerned about rape, and murder, you should look at our natural born population which commits crimes at much higher rates. 

[Spendulus]

...
That myth has been debunked. The fear is irrational.  
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
Here we subscribe to the idea that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  If you are really concerned about rape, and murder, you should look at our natural born population which commits crimes at much higher rates.  

It's not a myth that there are 500 criminals in the caravan population. The only myths are in your words.

[coins4commies]

Its a non issue.  Known criminals will not make it through "catch and release", they will be caught and brought to whatever justice is deemed appropriate.   No one is saying criminals should be granted asylum.

Trump has closed san ysidro, our largest border entry point to all people.  Americans in TJ cannot get back.  Yet again we have to wait several hours for a judge to overrule our dictator in chief. 
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/25/us/san-ysidro-port-of-entry-closed/index.html
Until then, unjust policies should be broken. People should resist.

[skyrocketwolden]

A wall would be good for security reasons but in a world were trade and commerce, social lives and economies are driven because of lack of these walls i think its a bad idea

[Spendulus]

Its a non issue.  Known criminals will not make it through "catch and release", they will be caught and brought to whatever justice is deemed appropriate.   No one is saying criminals should be granted asylum. ....

Again you show your bias and mis statements.

Advocating criminals be allowed into the US, and advocating they be allowed to run free until they are "caught."

Oh, and by the way, this entire problem in large part exists because your "open border buddies" did in fact do just that, let the criminals run free, and let them repeatedly be caught and released, over and over. There is a large number of these cases, yes, including many of rape and murder.

Please stop being idiotic.

[coins4commies]

Of course out of millions of people, there will be some who commit rape and murder.  That is why I posted the article about the research.  Undocumented immigrants are not a special group of people immune to the human struggle.  The key is that they commit these crimes at a lower rate than the people already here. 

 Why not just focus on addressing issues of rape and murder in society in general?  Why focus on poor people who are actively trying to better themselves?  If you get bent out of shape over rape and murder by immigrants but not rape and murder by citizens, you are part of the rape and murder problem.

[bones261]

  You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

[Spendulus]

....If you get bent out of shape over rape and murder by immigrants but not rape and murder by citizens, you are part of the rape and murder problem.

Lol, now you are trying your skills at sophistry, and doing quite poorly.  But that's an inevitably outcome from attempting to argue illogical premises.

More importantly it is an admission to having lost the argument. Then one has no option but to resort to logical fallacies and such. You might consider that is not wise.

 You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

This is partly true. It would not impact the lucrative cocaine trade.

Assuming that the customers prefer the legal weed, if price and quality is good, this seems to improve things all around.

It's important to note that partial solutions to a large and complex reality should never be rejected. It was by a series of gradual relaxations and partial solutions that the West, notably Reagan, cracked open the Soviet block. And Nixon's starting a dialogue with China, that worked in a similar way. Trump and NK, etc. These are paths to a solution.

By the way, Legal is not a right/left issue today in the USA. You will find many on all sides of the political spectrum who would agree with legalization. That is why the trend toward legalization is succeeding.

The wall is a part of any solution and is a reasonable thing, assuming one gets out of the new progressive open border crap and thinks rationally.

[bones261]

 You know, simply ending the drug war rather than erecting an expensive wall would probably do wonders in reducing this problem. Getting rid of the black market for drugs would make the dangerous drug cartels obsolete. Also, it would reduce people seeking asylum, for both the claims for needing asylum that are legitimate and the ones that are not legitimate. Plus, the government can use the now legitimized recreational drug policy as a new way to raise revenue. Seems to be working reasonably well here in Colorado with legalized Marijuana.

This is partly true. It would not impact the lucrative cocaine trade.

Assuming that the customers prefer the legal weed, if price and quality is good, this seems to improve things all around.

It's important to note that partial solutions to a large and complex reality should never be rejected. It was by a series of gradual relaxations and partial solutions that the West, notably Reagan, cracked open the Soviet block. And Nixon's starting a dialogue with China, that worked in a similar way. Trump and NK, etc. These are paths to a solution.

By the way, Legal is not a right/left issue today in the USA. You will find many on all sides of the political spectrum who would agree with legalization. That is why the trend toward legalization is succeeding.

The wall is a part of any solution and is a reasonable thing, assuming one gets out of the new progressive open border crap and thinks rationally.

When I call for the end to the drug war, I mean all drugs, not just weed. Personally, I feel that the governments' efforts to suppress the market just succeeded in creating a black market. The black market creates more problems than the reduction(?) in ready supply alleviates. And herding people up into prisons to serve long sentences does not seem to deter any replacements to come and fill the gap.

[Spendulus]

....

When I call for the end to the drug war, I mean all drugs, not just weed. Personally, I feel that the governments' efforts to suppress the market just succeeded in creating a black market. The black market creates more problems than the reduction(?) in ready supply alleviates. And herding people up into prisons to serve long sentences does not seem to deter any replacements to come and fill the gap.

Okay that's a different matter. That's been tried in some locales around the world with mixed results.

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list. That's at the federal level.

At the state level in the USA we have various states "disobeying" the federal statutes and the feds looking the other way. They are not going to look the other way if a state tried to make all narcotics unregulated.

[Flying Hellfish]

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list.

Weed is a sched 1 narcotic, like heroin, Cocaine is a sched 2 narcotic.

Border walls don't work, migration is way to difficult to solve with a fucking wall...

[Spendulus]

It's not going to happen in the USA, but the reasons are essentially that there is a strong argument for taking weed off the Schedule 4 narcotics list. There is no argument for taking narcotics off the narcotics list.

Weed is a sched 1 narcotic, like heroin, Cocaine is a sched 2 narcotic.

Border walls don't work, migration is way to difficult to solve with a fucking wall...

Look, be reasonable. We can keep a lot of Mexicans employed building the wall. You know it's a good thing.

[byteball]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

[Spendulus]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

Not "West," you see.

Just some jerks with political objectives, like Soros.

Enemies of the US, and some fools that follow them.

[jerome892]

Related: why West hates when Russia is protecting it's borders?
Gorby dismantled USSR on promises NATO will not extend. Those promises were broken.
So West is crying four years now about Crimea suddenly lost to NATO bases, and pretends there are no
legitimate borders that need to be protected. Including South border of USA.

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

[Spendulus]

...
Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

LOL, you got that all wrong.

Hispanic Americans have been in the USA before it was the USA. Think in terms of 500 years.

[byteball]

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

The parallel I was drawing was that all four neglect/violate post-1945 borders:
1) Blowing up Yugoslavia with pumping/propping up ethnic tensions, recognition of Kosovo;
2) Blowing up USSR into 15 "States" some of them not quite full-blown ones, with only half of them really independent;
2) Refusal to recognise Russian Crimea+Sevastopol despite them being Russian in 1945 (and Sevastopol being Soviet in 1991);
3) Propaganda that all migrants should be freely admitted on US South border.

There could be more examples. The basic idea here is: transnational capital has no borders, so stop shouting about need to defend them.

[Spendulus]

Aren't these totally different things? I mean, one thing is occupying a part of another country and totally different is that you want to keep all people of colour out of your country?

The parallel I was drawing was that all four neglect/violate post-1945 borders:
1) Blowing up Yugoslavia with pumping/propping up ethnic tensions, recognition of Kosovo;
2) Blowing up USSR into 15 "States" some of them not quite full-blown ones, with only half of them really independent;
2) Refusal to recognise Russian Crimea+Sevastopol despite them being Russian in 1945 (and Sevastopol being Soviet in 1991);
3) Propaganda that all migrants should be freely admitted on US South border.

There could be more examples. The basic idea here is: transnational capital has no borders, so stop shouting about need to defend them.

I may be missing something here, but why stop shouting about defending borders because of transnational capital?

How about caring about the southern US/Mexico border strictly for crime control, in terms of murder, rape, drugs?

I don't think I even know ANYBODY that cares about "transnational capital."

[nutildah]

But really, the first thing you need to know about the wall is there is no wall!

It was just a political maneuver Trump used to gain votes -- pretty standard politician tactic of promising something that sounds awesome to your base and then never delivering on it.

[dogtana]

Snipped

But really, the first thing you need to know about the wall is there is no wall!

It was just a political maneuver Trump used to gain votes -- pretty standard politician tactic of promising something that sounds awesome to your base and then never delivering on it.

Wasn't that quite clear when he said Mexico is going to pay for the wall? What a stupid statement.

[Flying Hellfish]

But really, the first thing you need to know about the wall is there is no wall!

It was just a political maneuver Trump used to gain votes -- pretty standard politician tactic of promising something that sounds awesome to your base and then never delivering on it.

A little known fact is while Trump waits (forever) for funding for his Southern border wall he has started construction on the Norther border wall.  Turns out the communists in Canada are more of a threat than the immigrants from the south!

Trump lost his mind when he heard the US has the worlds longest undefended border with a communist dictatorship.  The commies are coming over the border with Chinese and Russian soldiers Trump feels that hundreds of thousands of these commies are invading the US daily from the North!

The Northern wall has been being built in secret since 2016


Trump is a little scared the Commies are hiding a fire/ice breathing dragon which would make the wall much less effective but he still believes fire/ice breathing dragons are fake news!

Trump has also commissioned a study on the feasibility of east and west border walls as well (he wants walls of water and they will be great), he feels they can almost eliminate immigration entirely if they are physically walled off from the rest of the planet!

[coolcoinz]

Apparently, no wall is too high for a skilled Mexican. If even children are able to go over it, it's not going to stop the hordes when zombie apocalypse comes.  Money well spent Mr. Trump! *Clap* *Clap*

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/4/smuggler-dropped-two-children-top-border-wall-dhs/

Wasn't that quite clear when he said Mexico is going to pay for the wall? What a stupid statement.

Mexicans are going to buy it and turn it into a climbing wall for children. They've been training since 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVdi14ECCc

[nutildah]

^

Now THAT's a wall!

Did the Canadians pay for it?

[Spendulus]

Mexicans are going to buy it and turn it into a climbing wall for children. They've been training since 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVdi14ECCc

It's just inevitable that they will pay for it.

[nutildah]

It's just inevitable that they will pay for it.

How so?