Poll: is it OK to send merits to your own alts?

[Veleor]

What is about relatives which sending 10-50 merit to each other?
I don't see the big difference between them and alts because relatives (or "relatives") are often rating messages very subjectively, in my mind.

I kinda want to vote again from my Mobile

Is it OK to participate in polls with your alt? 

[1714808590]

1714808590

[1714808590]

1714808590

[1714808590]

1714808590

[LoyceV]

What is about relatives which sending 10-50 merit to each other?

From what I've seen, most of the transactions sending 10-50 Merit at once are not for good posts anyway.
Do as theymos recommended: don't waste sleep over it, in the end it will be a small fraction of total Merit. Remember: We're destroying more merits than we're sending. Like, way more., give it time and the spammers run out of sMerit.

Is it OK to participate in polls with your alt?  

Make a poll

And there's this:

I think that tagging may be appropriate in particularly obvious cases, or particularly egregious cases involving hundreds of merit points and several posts. But generally you should start out by assuming good faith, and only change that opinion as the evidence really piles up.

This isn't easy

[suchmoon]

And there's this:

I think that tagging may be appropriate in particularly obvious cases, or particularly egregious cases involving hundreds of merit points and several posts. But generally you should start out by assuming good faith, and only change that opinion as the evidence really piles up.

This isn't easy

So I guess the question is whether proven alts sending merits to each other is a "particularly obvious case"... of what exactly? Looks like 36:0 so far the consensus is that merit-to-alts is not ok.

And there's this:

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

[Atomicat]

What is about relatives which sending 10-50 merit to each other?
I don't see the big difference between them and alts because relatives (or "relatives") are often rating messages very subjectively, in my mind.

If the posts are of high quality I don't see it as an issue considering the amount of merits sent isn't favoring the relative with extra merits over another member's post of similar value but honestly 10-50 merits is a lot to give out for a single post.
But doing this in order to alter your rank might still be frowned upon cause there's a very high chance if you need to ask a relative to merit your post it's doesn't really contribute much value to the community.

This again brings us to the point that if your post is actually contributing value to this community it's very easy to get merits by bringing it to the attention of merit sources.

The main issue this community is trying to prevent here is low quality posts eating up the merits in our economy.

I kinda want to vote again from my Mobile

Is it OK to participate in polls with your alt? 

No I don't think it's OK to manipulate poll results using alts but it's clearly a form of humor from LoyceV in this situation.


EDIT: I just want to also include this lovely quote in my post. Thanks suchmoon

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

[suchmoon]

The main issue this community is trying to prevent here is low quality posts eating up the merits in our economy.

I don't know if that smiley indicates a joke but the reality is that (1) merits are not scarce and (2) merits that have been sent to alts probably wouln't have been put to good use anyway.

My main problem with alt merits is that it distorts the relative quality of posts/posters/ranks/etc and indicates the dishonesty of the perp.

[Atomicat]

The main issue this community is trying to prevent here is low quality posts eating up the merits in our economy.

I don't know if that smiley indicates a joke but the reality is that (1) merits are not scarce and (2) merits that have been sent to alts probably wouln't have been put to good use anyway.

Nah, I just pictured all the low quality posts eating up the merits in circulation. I kinda imagined a large fish(low quality posts) eating up the merits(smaller fishes) we have.
I tried to find a picture to make it a little clearer but was unsuccessful.

You're actually right regarding your second point but unspent merits in the ecosystem is still better than poorly spent merits.

My main problem with alt merits is that it distorts the relative quality of posts/posters/ranks/etc and indicates the dishonesty of the perp.

Agreed.
Making manipulative/poor merit spending a more frowned upon act in this community help increase the value of given merits/ranks gained from merit-based progression.

[MikeMike]

I think there is a valid reason to send Merit to a "Corporate Type" account
setup by the main Developer so as to manage multiple threads and projects.
It is given to denote the trust level the original Developer is designating to that legitimate account.
The account creds are held by the Team and others will be posting since it is too much work for any one individual.
Specially since it takes Merit to be able to post pictures and the threads need to be created soon.
NOTE:
At the time I was not aware of the option to buy a "copper Membership" that allows you to post pictures...

Below is my reasoning taken from the negative feedback and the reference links.
Please read it all carefully prior to responding to this post.

Also what must be considered is "Intent".
Did I do this to deceive people?
I fully agree those whom buy accounts with lots of Merit and trust and history
like some well known major coins devs do here should not be tolerated.
I also believe that those whom send Merit to deceive people should not be tolerated.

I have sent 3 DMs to suchmoon asking him to be reasonable in this matter with no reply.
I also asked the Mods to at least ask him to turn it neutral and keep a watchful eye on me/The KORE Team using
the KORE - DEV account and to see if we scam people which we will not. Our projects are real and we have invested hundreds of BTC into them.

MikeMike

EDIT:
Since one of my other posts were deleted Im adding these facts here:
An old KORE Team member called Clutch who was responsible for all the Language threads
left the Team and did not give us his creds.
We are releasing a new wallet soon and in my post made clear what the account was for.
I made sure to give the KORE Team the creds to the account and in time others will be posting.
My intent was to never have that happen again losing access to OP pages etc.







Here is the negative feedback reference link suchmoon the creator of this thread gave me:
http://archive.vn/aIT07#selection-2761.0-2790.6












Here is my reply to the negative feedback:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=234771
















My third attempt to reach out to  suchmoon.
Below is copy of this PM.
Look at the time stamp:
KORE - DEV / MikeMike negative feedback
« Sent to: suchmoon on: January 04, 2019, 07:33:01 PM »


Note the time stamp of the creation of this thread suchmoon created here:
Poll: is it OK to send merits to your own alts?
January 04, 2019, 09:10:54 PM

This IMO shows a clear refusal to be reasonable in this matter...
This is unprofessional behavior.
Please read these pms in their entirety prior to commenting...

Could you please reply regarding my previous pms to you regarding the consideration of removing or turning neutral your negative feedback.
We need to use the KORE - DEV account to create multiple new OP pages soon for the other Languages and coins.
From my first post I have been forthright as the the reason it was created.
I/We are not trying to fool anyone or scam people.
We need to be able to post graphics with this account soon and that is one other reason I sent Merit to it.
Besides wanting to show directly is is an account I/MikeMike approve of and created and showing also by Merit given to it.
I do not see where or how this is deserving of this negative feedback.

You don't have to believe it but I too am a person wanting to expose corruption and have in the past
with the old dev of KORE and other devs/coins as well as a main driving reason for the creation of these KORE Projects.
I am others were sick of being taken advantage of by scam devs.

Please respond.
My Personal PMs also prove this.


MikeMike

Below is a copy of my PM with the Moderator:
I sent this copy to suchmoon today:
Look at the timestamp:
Re: KORE - DEV / MikeMike negative feedback #3
« Sent to: suchmoon on: Today at 07:56:06 PM »

Thank you for your reply.
I could understand there being large gray areas whereby abuse is actuated.
These areas are most difficult to moderate.

As in this case I beg to differ that it is clear.
The negative feedback does not fit my actions.
I stated clearly what it was for and signed it with MikeMike so there was no
action by me of trying to hide anything.

I can understand you not taking direct action in this case
and can only imagine how difficult it is working with scammers and corrupt people.
But I'm not that kind of person and my actions will continue to prove that fact.

Could you both at least please consider reaching out to suchmoon
and ask him to consider at least turning it to neutral with a notation
that he will keep watch on me and if we as a Team or myself pull any
corrupt moves he will take action?


MikeMike

Hello,
Below is my 3rd attempt to reach out to suchmoon to have what I believe to truly be improperly submitted negative feedback.
Please review my other pms to you and the reference posts and reply feedback.
I really dont think I have done anything underhanded and we need this KORE - DEV account for below said reasons hopefully soon.

I appreciate any time you devote towards this matter.

MikeMike

Could you please reply regarding my previous pms to you regarding the consideration of removing or turning neutral your negative feedback.
We need to use the KORE - DEV account to create multiple new OP pages soon for the other Languages and coins.
From my first post I have been forthright as the the reason it was created.
I/We are not trying to fool anyone or scam people.
We need to be able to post graphics with this account soon and that is one other reason I sent Merit to it.
Besides wanting to show directly is is an account I/MikeMike approve of and created and showing also by Merit given to it.
I do not see where or how this is deserving of this negative feedback.

You don't have to believe it but I too am a person wanting to expose corruption and have in the past
with the old dev of KORE and other devs/coins as well as a main driving reason for the creation of these KORE Projects.
I am others were sick of being taken advantage of by scam devs.

Please respond.
My Personal PMs also prove this.


MikeMike

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0:

Q: Why isn't trust moderated?
A: Feedback isn't moderated (except for obvious cases such as pure advertising, hundreds of identical empty/gibberish reports on one user) for the same reason as scams - too much room for abuse.

No. I'm neither acquainted with the situation enough to make a judgement, nor am I interested in dedicating any time to understand it. Trust disputes should be resolved by the users involved.

That is disappointing.
Reading his feedback and my response and looking at the references is all that is needed to fully understand the matter.
I presume you may have read my emails as well detailing that I have already tried reaching out a few times
with no response and is the reason I reached out to you, the Moderator.
Seems it is just you two Mods.
It might be considerate to get another Mod just for these bogus feedbacks.
What I see and what people tell me, is more and more people are leaving BitcoinTalk and this in itself is a just cause.
How can the KORE Team be able to gain any trust here with red warning notations to trade with extreme caution.
I personally have a little history here and would like to keep our real projects here as an alternative to the massive amounts of scams.

Apologies for wasting your time.

MikeMike

[o_e_l_e_o]

It is given to denote the trust level the original Developer is designating to that legitimate account.

Isn't that what trust is for? Leave a neutral rating from each account to the other to confirm that it is a trusted account. As a side note, you've left yourself positive trust, which is also generally frowned upon.

Specially since it takes Merit to be able to post pictures and the threads need to be created soon.

This reasoning might have been valid if you had left yourself 1 merit, since it only takes 1 merit to be able to post images, not 40.

[MikeMike]

It is given to denote the trust level the original Developer is designating to that legitimate account.

Isn't that what trust is for? Leave a neutral rating from each account to the other to confirm that it is a trusted account. As a side note, you've left yourself positive trust, which is also generally frowned upon.

Specially since it takes Merit to be able to post pictures and the threads need to be created soon.

This reasoning might have been valid if you had left yourself 1 merit, since it only takes 1 merit to be able to post images, not 40.

Again "Intent" needs to be considered.
The fact is only after I received this negative feedback which is clearly unwarranted did I add each account to each others trust.
Still even IF I did this beforehand it would have been and was done to prove it is the legitimate Corporate Dev account for the KORE Projects.

Even with 50 Merit for some reason I could not post pictures.
Only after I paid for a Copper Membership was I able to post pictures.

I see by looking at your and suchmoon's Trust level that you both are here very active in trying to protect people.
I respect that.
But in this matter I/The KORE Team clearly from the beginning have been very open and forthright what the KORE - DEV account was for and why it was created.
Please realize we had an old KORE Team member create the last set of Language threads and they ended up leaving
without giving us access to that account.
Now they need to be recreated and my intent was to make sure this never happened again.


MikeMike

[o_e_l_e_o]

Even with 50 Merit for some reason I could not post pictures.

You need to be a Junior Member to post images, which has an activity requirement of 28 in addition to a Merit requirement of 1.

[MikeMike]

Even with 50 Merit for some reason I could not post pictures.

You need to be a Junior Member to post images, which has an activity requirement of 28 in addition to a Merit requirement of 1.

OK, thanks.
I edited my previous post.
Please review it again...

[Quickseller]

I would like to say this is not something I would do myself, nor is something I would personally condone.

With the above being said, someone has sMerits because they ultimately previously made a post someone thought is deserving of merit. As such, I consider sMerit (assuming they are not spending sMerit they have resulting from what they received from being a merit source) to be their property, and I am not a fan of telling others what they can and cannot do with their own property.

The underlying reason why others believe sending merit to your alts is because of the conflict of interest. However, as previously mentioned, the ultimate reason why someone has sMerit to spend in the first place is because someone thought they made (a) good post(s) in the past; the reason someone will send merit to themselves is to rank up, however if someone earned merit in the 1st place, there isn't any real reason why someone couldn't make good posts with their alt to earn merit from someone else.

Back to the topic of conflict of interest, a bigger concern is when people send merit to someone who they have a business (or other) relationship with. If there is a relationship between two people, there may be financial (or other) reasons why someone is giving merit to that person. It could easily be argued that the merit sender thought the post in question was deserving of merit. Unlike with cases of sending merit to yourself, it would not be trivial for the receiving account to earn the merit if there is already merit to spend in the 1st place.

[suchmoon]

I think there is a valid reason to send Merit to a "Corporate Type" account

No. That's not what merits are for.

Did I do this to deceive people?

I think so. You didn't earn those merits from other people. You didn't earn that positive trust either BTW.

I have sent 3 DMs to suchmoon asking him to be reasonable in this matter with no reply.

You keep insisting you did nothing wrong. I started this poll in part because of that. And the result was 36:0 before you showed up. It's 36:2 now. Can you tell us why?

With the above being said, someone has sMerits because they ultimately previously made a post someone thought is deserving of merit. As such, I consider sMerit (assuming they are not spending sMerit they have resulting from what they received from being a merit source) to be their property, and I am not a fan of telling others what they can and cannot do with their own property.

The forum already prevents sending merits to yourself (i.e. the same account). There is also a limit of 50 per account per month. There is sufficient precedent to make this "property" argument moot. I don't think sMerits are ours to own, we're supposed to send them to other people.

[theduuude]

Here's my vote, suchmoon, "you are not important"...suchmoon gets a gold medal in the imbecile Olympics.  Suchmoon is trapped in the virtual world.  Try to get out and go for a walk or something it might do you some good.  Or, start up your own forum and you can do whatever you want.

Whats what with this vote crap.  You don't own bitcointalk (unless i'm mistaken)

[suchmoon]

~

 - You sent 40 points to your own post.
 - You gave an excuse that it was done to post images, which doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.
 - Your other excuse (a "team" will use the account) is equivalent to account farming and sale.
 - You're multi-posting with alts in this thread.

I have removed a bunch of your posts - feel free to create your own thread and repost them there but I won't tolerate serial posting using sockpuppets.

[MikeMike]

I want to be clear about this.
If I had the ability to remove the Merit sent and it was sent with proper intent I would.
I do believe suchmoon would then remove the negative feedback.
I have reviewed his feedback history and seen him doing that with others so would expect the same.

Since I do not have the ability to remove the Merit sent I am asking him to be reasonable
and I presented facts stating my case and asked him to leave neutral feedback instead
but still state his concerns...


MikeMike

[bones261]

@MikeMike. Bring this up to Theymos. Not sure that he will bother, but he can nuke merits in extreme circumstances.

[Quickseller]

With the above being said, someone has sMerits because they ultimately previously made a post someone thought is deserving of merit. As such, I consider sMerit (assuming they are not spending sMerit they have resulting from what they received from being a merit source) to be their property, and I am not a fan of telling others what they can and cannot do with their own property.

The forum already prevents sending merits to yourself (i.e. the same account). There is also a limit of 50 per account per month. There is sufficient precedent to make this "property" argument moot. I don't think sMerits are ours to own, we're supposed to send them to other people.

My online banking has technical limits as to how much money I can send via wire transfer (and via other means), and many cars have technical limits as to how fast they will drive, and if they will play the radio if the seatbelts are not being worn. Both the money in my bank account and any cars I own are still my property, despite these technical limitations.

[MikeMike]

@MikeMike. Bring this up to Theymos. Not sure that he will bother, but he can nuke merits in extreme circumstances.

Hey thanks.
I did not know that.

[suchmoon]

My online banking has technical limits as to how much money I can send via wire transfer (and via other means), and many cars have technical limits as to how fast they will drive, and if they will play the radio if the seatbelts are not being worn. Both the money in my bank account and any cars I own are still my property, despite these technical limitations.

Merits are not cars nor money. It's a forum feature and you don't own it any more than you own the "Report to moderator" button - you can use it subject to rules.

I can withdraw money from the bank and put it under my mattress, or mod my car any way I want if I don't drive it on public roads. If theymos allows you to take the sMerits off the forum in some way then I would agree that you can own them and perhaps use elsewhere not subject to forum rules.


I'm removing the other annoying KORE troll as well. Mike, get your minions in line.