This Isn't Manipulation

[BlackPanda]

For me, I think we should stop ICOs  or limit the number of ICO's every year. Because if you think about it, a lot of money is just getting squandered on projects that has no guarantee that will succeed. It's better to fund coins that are doing great most importantly bitcoin and let's put our money there for the infastructures and etc.

The ICO project cannot be stopped !! all we have to do is limit it. There must be an agency or institution that regulates the establishment of an ICO project. So when there is an ICO project that wants to be realized, it must verify various supporting elements, so that the ICO project can get verification and can continue the project. This must be done immediately because if the current situation continues, the ICO project will probably be seen as something that hinders the development of crypto. We must immediately make changes because with these changes a project will develop and of course there will be fewer ICO projects available, and the most important thing is that the ICO project has the quality to realize all previously promised visions and missions. This will also give investors confidence to invest and in the end the volume of crypto transactions will increase rapidly.

[bintangkejoraku]

well this is not manipulation but there is a large group of whales who like to play prices, with the funds they have they are free to regulate the market as they wish. This whale's whale is very annoying 

they do that to make small investors panic, after that they will buy bitcoin at low prices. when they already have lots of bitcoins, they will make positive news so that the price of bitcoin rises.

[omonuyak]

Do you think there is enough awareness for Bitcoin and other leading cryptocurrencies. I really do not care much about all the others but Bitcoin must be supported for global adoption. Those of us that have benefited from the coin will have much more to gain in terms of value. Global commerce will gain in terms of reduced restrictions.

But the coin community isn't really doing enough save sitting around and waiting for centralized authorities to determine the trend. The reality is that governments map out policies that favor their fiat, so should the community.

I have started seeing the coin community as the custodian of Bitcoin and its success. I think we should take the bull by the horn and effectively market the coin like a business. This post for instance shows how ICOs can market their tokens like real business entities. By extention, Bitcoin enthusiasts should find ways to promote the coin for massive adoption. Fiat is business to governments. Bitcoin should be business to us.
https://cryptoinfowatch.com/a-clickfunnels-review-automating-your-ico/

Bitcoin and ethereum must be truly supported for global and mainstream adoptions.  We cannot deny ourself the reality on ground that bitcoin is been manipulated in terms of pricing and public adoptions.  The mainstream media are putting in the bad shape and hiding the reality.

[deisik]

Traders do add a lot of value to bitcoin by providing liquidity

This is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility

actually, it's quite the opposite. traders obviously add liquidity to both sides of the order book. increased liquidity fundamentally reduces volatility, because it takes increased buying/selling volume to move the market.

what happens when order books are thin? slippage, which means higher volatility. can you imagine how thin order books would be if traders didn't exist?!

I definitely see what you mean

Moreover, I would likely say essentially the same if someone came up with a similar claim (that speculative value adds to volatility). But I'm not that someone and I can easily tell you why and where you are in fact wrong. Basically, you assume that Bitcoin is just about trading (read, speculation) and in these very specific conditions, you might be right after all. But if we take a wider look, your point can be easily refuted and this also explains why my claim is actually correct if we look beyond sheer speculation

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

whether speculation by traders adds volatility above and beyond their reduction of volatility via liquidity is a matter for debate. but you could never even begin to prove that traders represent a net increase in volatility

This sounds like complete gibberish to me. But I will just say that traders are not the only actors

I intentionally pointed out that it is speculative value since there can also be real value determined by real use. And if we take into account this value, your whole argument is instantly reversed

what is "real use" though?

if you're talking about people who buy BTC and use it as a p2p currency, they increase volatility by buying up market supply (reducing liquidity).

if you're talking about investors, they're speculating on the market just the same as traders (except they remove liquidity from the market for longer periods of time)

Basically, you don't see the forest for the trees

This shows that you can't look at the bigger picture, and thus can't understand why your whole argument doesn't hold. You feel like you are right indeed because you can't possibly grasp how you can be wrong. I understand your pains and anguish. And I tell you why you feel like that. You don't see why real use overrides speculative value because this real use in case of Bitcoin is virtually non-existent. That's why you are technically correct (with Bitcoin), but still wrong in general, "fundamentally" as you say

[wuvdoll]

If adoption is not done through talks than I don't know how it will be done.

You talk about bitcoin, I learn about it, I talk about it someone else learns about it, the more we talk about the more people learn about bitcoin and in the end we all come to a level where everyone knows what bitcoin is and can talk about it and that creates a situation where everyone either uses bitcoin or at least knows about it.

If we can create that world than the adoption will increase. There will be more and more people that use bitcoin in the future. Don't forget that technology is adopted by young people first and many young people are not business owners, there will be more and more business owners in the future that are young right now and those people will find a way to accept bitcoin.

[figmentofmyass]

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

are you serious? now you're even contesting the idea that "increased market liquidity dampens volatility"? if you can't accept the fact that thicker books reduce volatility, we're at an impasse. this forum is full of traders who can attest to that fact because they actually understand how order books and slippage work. you're just arguing for argument's sake now.

whether speculation by traders adds volatility above and beyond their reduction of volatility via liquidity is a matter for debate. but you could never even begin to prove that traders represent a net increase in volatility

This sounds like complete gibberish to me. But I will just say that traders are not the only actors

nobody said traders were the only actors. you claimed that traders increase volatility. i'm merely saying you can't prove it---not with logic nor evidence.

what is "real use" though?

if you're talking about people who buy BTC and use it as a p2p currency, they increase volatility by buying up market supply (reducing liquidity).

if you're talking about investors, they're speculating on the market just the same as traders (except they remove liquidity from the market for longer periods of time).

the difference is, traders are short term speculators, meaning they provide liquidity for long term speculators, absorbing their supply and demand. we can't assume traders have a permanent net bullish or bearish bias in any market; all we can do is assume they are providing liquidity, which dampens volatility by definition.

Basically, you don't see the forest for the trees

This shows that you can't look at the bigger picture, and thus can't understand why your whole argument doesn't hold. You feel like you are right indeed because you can't possibly grasp how you can be wrong. I understand your pains and anguish. And I tell you why you feel like that. You don't see why real use overrides speculative value because this real use in case of Bitcoin is virtually non-existent. That's why you are technically correct (with Bitcoin), but still wrong in general, "fundamentally" as you say

how am i wrong in general? you didn't actually establish that.....

[arpon11]

Bitcoin has made this great impact on world's economic without any support from governments and traditional financial institutions!  The media has not helped matter in any way and I agree with op that bitcoin was not well published and most of the information we see online except cryptocurrencies forum like this are against bitcoin.  Blockchain technology is the future of our financial system and it will do our society good if from now we make a decision to accept it and adopt it into the world financial system.

[Herbert2020]

If adoption is not done through talks than I don't know how it will be done.

You talk about bitcoin, I learn about it, I talk about it someone else learns about it, the more we talk about the more people learn about bitcoin and in the end we all come to a level where everyone knows what bitcoin is and can talk about it and that creates a situation where everyone either uses bitcoin or at least knows about it.

If we can create that world than the adoption will increase. There will be more and more people that use bitcoin in the future. Don't forget that technology is adopted by young people first and many young people are not business owners, there will be more and more business owners in the future that are young right now and those people will find a way to accept bitcoin.

very true but also one thing about adoption that people usually miss is that it happens slowly. for example whenever a new technology is introduced in the world (portable phones which we now call cell phone, cars when everyone was using horse and cart to go around,....) it is first adopted by those who are more enthusiast about the technology then by the wise people who see the potential and then after a while it is adapted so that it is easy to use for average Joe and afterwards it is adopted by everyone. right now bitcoin is in the first two steps.

so in the end it is not just about awareness. people may already know about bitcoin but are either to lazy to check it out or too scared to do it. but eventually they all will. like now that they are all using cars without even remembering that once they were scared of this loud machine that burned fuel instead of eating hay and shitting on the streets

[deisik]

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

are you serious? now you're even contesting the idea that "increased market liquidity dampens volatility"?

And with this you get caught red-handed

As you seem to acknowledge yourself that "this is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility" is not the same as "increased market liquidity dampens volatility", huh. So what exactly are you arguing with here and who is actually arguing for argument's sake now? Speculative value can't but add to market (price) volatility in exactly the same way as real value can't but take from that volatility, per definition (speculative value being anything but real value). It is sort of accounting identity which, believe me, is not worth challenging or arguing with

[Fredomago]

Bitcoin has made this great impact on world's economic without any support from governments and traditional financial institutions!  The media has not helped matter in any way and I agree with op that bitcoin was not well published and most of the information we see online except cryptocurrencies forum like this are against bitcoin.  Blockchain technology is the future of our financial system and it will do our society good if from now we make a decision to accept it and adopt it into the world financial system.

The market will rise high when people around will start to recognized and adopt this system, people like us who knew about this system should focus on sharing the benefits and keep moving forward to introduce to many the good side of blockchain and cryptocurrency, media didn't play a good role but the can help changing the view of many if certain ideas will come from us, it will be an addition to the end users and since crypto is determine with its supplies and demands it won't be feared being manipulated.

[South Park]

Do you think there is enough awareness for Bitcoin and other leading cryptocurrencies. I really do not care much about all the others but Bitcoin must be supported for global adoption. Those of us that have benefited from the coin will have much more to gain in terms of value. Global commerce will gain in terms of reduced restrictions.

But the coin community isn't really doing enough save sitting around and waiting for centralized authorities to determine the trend. The reality is that governments map out policies that favor their fiat, so should the community.

I have started seeing the coin community as the custodian of Bitcoin and its success. I think we should take the bull by the horn and effectively market the coin like a business. This post for instance shows how ICOs can market their tokens like real business entities. By extention, Bitcoin enthusiasts should find ways to promote the coin for massive adoption. Fiat is business to governments. Bitcoin should be business to us.
https://cryptoinfowatch.com/a-clickfunnels-review-automating-your-ico/

The problems with trying to promote bitcoin as a business is that the analogy you are making does not work, icos are private business because they ask for funds in exchange for a part of the supply of the coins, so they are effectively selling shares of their company, bitcoin never went through anything like that, at first the coins were given for free to anyone that asked or you could mine your own for almost no cost, so while we can promote bitcoin to try to push the level of adoption we should never think of bitcoin as a centralized business.