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Author Topic: Perfect example of why governments must hold Bitcoin  (Read 20930 times)
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February 01, 2019, 11:07:39 PM
 #61



If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

To be fair, he probably already does. The fact that he has shown interest in cryptocurrencies (even though the Petro is essentially renowned as a scam at this stage) means that he likely has some BTC in reserves.

But I think that your point still stands. Firstly, bitcoin can be transacted with much easier compared to gold. Especially with moving large amounts of it. The liquidity that is within the bitcoin market is probably no less than the physical gold market, either. Governments who hold bitcoin instead of gold also won't have issues with storage, and in this case, being blocked from accessing the gold since bitcoin is trustless.

Perhaps governments and central banks are still concerned about the volatility of bitcoin compared to gold, which is a valid concern given that they may need the assets to perform monetary policy at any given time. But I still think that in a few years, more countries will hold bitcoin because of the increased liquidity given by institutional investors and the increased stability as the market matures. But that's not to say gold isn't a good store of value, it still is, and it will continue to be. But custodial concerns are present with it, no doubt.

 
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February 02, 2019, 01:47:58 AM
 #62

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.
the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.

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February 02, 2019, 02:11:27 AM
 #63

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.
the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.
It is the oversee of the governments interest towards crypto and it looks like we've through on it, only some of them just hide their btc's just to wait for the timing. Probably they took advantage of being on the stage of crisis, buying bitcoins at cheap price and make reserve in the future used. 
We are headed for bringing up crypto into acceptable coins and exactly people were enjoyed using by then.


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February 02, 2019, 02:26:43 AM
 #64

Not all governments and countries think like Maduro, try to imagine if all countries hold Bitcoin, I believe the price of bitcoin for now is not like this, quite the opposite, I see this public news, CNN of course the other side can take the good side about Bitcoin is going forward.
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February 02, 2019, 03:22:17 AM
 #65

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.


Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.
I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins  .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words  though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold  .
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February 02, 2019, 05:05:54 AM
 #66

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved


Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people.

If you had Bitcoin, you can just trust a very select circle of people without the need of some huge circus to guard the stuff. Moving tones of shinny rock vs private keys. This is why the goldubs that criticize Bitcoin for not being a tangible good they can hold is a self-defeating argument.
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February 02, 2019, 05:24:06 AM
 #67

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.


Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.
I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins  .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words  though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold  .
That's the point, sooner or later as we are now in a digital era where innovations are easily been adopted, the maturity of this industry already being tested by time and as we are proceeding positively more and more people will start gathering interest and begin to use the chain.

With OP's point of view, it's so simple for a person who understand well how things works inside this market, considering those possible hassles and delays, Bitcoin really works as an alternative, an assets that can easily being transferred whenever you like it.
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February 02, 2019, 09:33:49 AM
 #68

If government keep bitcoin as their reserve, i think it will great for bitcoin price and market cap value will reach trillion dollar. But its hard to replace dollar because US domination in world economy. If government want to try replace dollar as reserve, US government will give sanction

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February 02, 2019, 11:11:52 AM
 #69

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc



That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

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February 02, 2019, 11:45:47 AM
 #70

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.


Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.
I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins  .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words  though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold  .
absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins

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February 07, 2019, 04:08:34 AM
 #71

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc



That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.
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February 07, 2019, 05:11:06 AM
 #72

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.


Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.
I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins  .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words  though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold  .
absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins
we can see that currently more and more countries are regulating bitcoin, so that this will have a positive impact on BTTC. therefore we do not need to worry about the current conditions

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February 07, 2019, 03:18:40 PM
 #73

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

You are underestimating people's greed

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general

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February 07, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
 #74

because holding bitcoin will definitely make Bitcoin experience a rapid price increase, because if the government wants to hold the bitcoin it has a positive impact on the value of bitcoin
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February 07, 2019, 09:35:43 PM
 #75

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.
At this point in time you are right but if we begin to think about the future then it makes sense that something like bitcoin should be favoured as a way to store your money safely and to avoid the scenario we are seeing now, but before we get to that point it will be important that we do this at the personal level since this is no different than what banks do to people every day denying you access to your funds just because they do not feel like giving you your money.



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February 08, 2019, 02:56:35 AM
 #76

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

You are underestimating people's greed

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general


What would you do? If you were running some sort of dictatorship, independent republic, or any other organization which tries to be as neutral as possible, but no matter how neutral you plan to be, there's always going to be allies and enemies due game theory.

Let's say on a long enough timeline an imperialist force like the US tries to invade your borders and you have no options but to fight, or give up, both outcomes end up in your assets stolen.

Of all possible options, what is better but to have Bitcoin as your reserve asset and have overseas backups? with a scheme of choice to try to end up with a successful outcome. You have many options like seeds, timelocks, or just good ol trust for someone to carry your wallet. What other asset gives you options?

Like I said, it's about having options, nothing is perfect. Bitcoin is the closest to perfect there is.
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February 08, 2019, 03:36:21 AM
 #77



If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.
There is a positive side that can be taken here, indeed by using bitcoin you can secure you and make transactions easily. Regarding taking oil and gold reserves, I don't agree with the regulation and bitcoin can be a safe solution because your assets are anonym, this is why the government is a little scared because if assets are truly anonymized by using fake identities or not requiring an identity when making transactions. Diversification is really needed in the world of economics not only to reduce risk, but there are still many benefits from diversification assets. In essence, in my opinion diversification is necessary, it's up to you to throw away your assets so that when you have one problem with one of your assets, your other assets can help you, I don't want to talk about shortages in gold or cryptography, but in economic problems.

 
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February 08, 2019, 09:13:05 AM
 #78

That is the fact and the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies or bitcoin makes one transactions synonymous.  Outside governments I think even individuals should endeavour to hold bitcoin than gold in other to make things easier.
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February 08, 2019, 01:57:29 PM
 #79

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general

What would you do? If you were running some sort of dictatorship, independent republic, or any other organization which tries to be as neutral as possible, but no matter how neutral you plan to be, there's always going to be allies and enemies due game theory

I'm not running a dictatorship, so I basically don't know

However, I wouldn't trust anyone in particular. In this way, if I wanted to remain in power (and have a working backup plan), I would definitely follow a policy known since ancient times as "divide and conquer" with the emphasis on the first part (i.e. the divide part). This element is about breaking up larger chunks of power into smaller pieces so that no one individually would have sufficient power or desire to question my rule (let alone actually trying to end it)

So if we consider financial aspect of my imaginary dictatorship (for that rainy day when it might come to an end), it still comes down to trusting no one specifically. And this leads us to the conclusion that we should built a distributed system of trust where failure (read, betrayal) of any particular element or part of it could not threaten the financial stability of the whole (read, my financial well-being no matter what the circumstances might be). Do I count as a good dictator?

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September 13, 2019, 06:20:01 PM
 #80

That is the fact and the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies or bitcoin makes one transactions synonymous.  Outside governments I think even individuals should endeavour to hold bitcoin than gold in other to make things easier.
Its risky to hold decentralized thing like bitcoin as long as it didn't considered as legal tender in your country.I don't think any country considering bitcoin as currency in this world but many regulated it as digital assets so holding needs to pay taxes.

The anonymity is good for the users but really bad thing for the governments.

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