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Author Topic: Institutional money into Crypto?  (Read 5940 times)
Pepe Lapiu (OP)
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February 10, 2019, 05:28:37 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #1

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?
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Pepe Lapiu (OP)
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February 10, 2019, 05:47:04 PM
Merited by LoyceV (2), wantjokull (2), o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #2

Here is what concerns me. I am a gold and silver bug. So I buy and keep as much gold and silver as I can afford (yeah Bitcoin too).
But I fully understand that the price of silver and gold is heavily controlled and kept down. While I only invest in physical bullion, most people don't bother to buy physical billions.  They just buy gold and silver certificates which their bank tells them represents an actual gold bar they will kindly store for you.

So you can actually go to your bank or broker and buy a gold certificate. It will have a serial number which they tell you is matching an actual gold bar somewhere in their vault.

What they are not telling you is that this same certificate can be issued to several other customers. So they effectively sell the same bar to many people. This scam can only work so long as not everyone decides to cash in their certificate and demand their physical gold. And in fact the vast majority of paper gold investors never bother to cash trade in their certificates for actual gold or silver.

The problem with this is that gold and silver are valuable because they are scarce. But when they issue several 'certificates' for the same bar, they are effectively creating the illusion that there are more bars in circulation than there actually is. And the more paper gold they issue, the more they create the illusion that there are more gold in circulation. And this has for effect to keep the price of gold down.

My fear is that if Wall Street actually gets around to invest in Bitcoin, they will not issue any actual Bitcoin to their customers anymore than they are issuing actual gold bars to their customers. They will just sell 'paper Bitcoin' or bitcoin certificates to their customers. 

Some people call this rehypotecation, some others call it fractional reserve banking. But I call it what it actually is - fraud and price control.

What are your fears that they might actually implement these things if Wall Street decides to sink their teeth into Bitcoin?
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February 10, 2019, 06:53:45 PM
 #3

...
What they are not telling you is that this same certificate can be issued to several other customers. So they effectively sell the same bar to many people. This scam can only work so long as not everyone decides to cash in their certificate and demand their physical gold. And in fact the vast majority of paper gold investors never bother to cash trade in their certificates for actual gold or silver.
...

So we should use blockchain to control gold and silver market maybe not whole market but certificate part.
Using the blockchain will allow to control individual bars deposited in any treasury and prevent you from "selling" the certificates of the same bars to several people at the same time...


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February 10, 2019, 07:05:11 PM
 #4

So we should use blockchain to control gold and silver market maybe not whole market but certificate part.
Using the blockchain will allow to control individual bars deposited in any treasury and prevent you from "selling" the certificates of the same bars to several people at the same time..
Yes, we should/could/would do just that.
But Wall Street is not likely to do that. They are likely to sell you something like a mutual fund. And they will claim for example that x% of it is in Bitcoin, and an other x% of it is in Litecoin, and so on....
Your mutual fund investor is not going to tell you to go buy coin to keep in your wallet because that would directly remove him as the middle man.

When others rejoice in Wall Street getting into cryptos, I don't rejoice, I cringe.

I think you fail to understand how much money is being made from rehypotecation and fractional reserve banking. Bankers are not going to give up that cash cow any time soon.
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February 10, 2019, 07:26:48 PM
 #5

To be honest, investment money from Wall Street will have a significant impact especially on the fluctuations in crypto prices in the market and may tend to pump up crypto prices. But, it won't last long. I do not mind the investment made by Wall Street towards bitcoin because it means that the technology that exists in bitcoin has been recognized by many parties and is feasible to be used and formalized as an asset or currency.
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February 10, 2019, 07:38:47 PM
 #6

I do not mind the investment made by Wall Street towards bitcoin because it means that the technology that exists in bitcoin has been recognized by many parties and is feasible to be used and formalized as an asset or currency.
Nope. That's not what it means. Wall Street has no desire to recognize Bitcoin as a currency or as a ham sandwich.  All that Wall Street cares about is to make money. If they figure out a way to make money from paper bitcoin, rehypotecation, fractional reserve banking, and futures market, that's exactly what they will do.
And there is only one result to such a scenario: price control. Just like they do with oil, gold, silver, and fiat.
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February 10, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
Merited by Pepe Lapiu (1)
 #7

Through Over The Counter trades, it is very possible that institutional money is already circulating around the Bitcoin community. And I do not think it's a positive prospect for regular investors. It would not increase circulation or the regular usage of bitcoin as a currency.

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February 10, 2019, 08:07:06 PM
 #8

Through Over The Counter trades, it is very possible that institutional money is already circulating around the Bitcoin community. And I do not think it's a positive prospect for regular investors. It would not increase circulation or the regular usage of bitcoin as a currency.
Yup, if there is a potential for gain, greedy Wall Street is never too far.
In fact I think the 2017 roller coaster ride of Bitcoin was engineered. And likely some Wall Street players reaped in large sums through pump and dump schemes.

I do worry a little about scalability and privacy. But mostly, I worry more about Wall Street and banksters getting involved.
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February 10, 2019, 08:16:00 PM
Merited by Pepe Lapiu (1)
 #9

I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.
Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.
If we are talking about something like futures contracts, then yeah, probably nothing good for bitcoin, as futures kind of ignore the natural flaw of events and the real prices. If we are talking about traders actually buying bitcoin on exchanges with the demand-offer driven price - well, it surely can help the market recover and the prices climb up, but I don't think even this is a good thing. I am concerned that the stock traders don't really give a shit about what they buy or sell. They are focused only on profits. So, these people will easily dump bitcoin once when they feel they can get most of it, which can trigger a bearish trend even worse than the one we already have.

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February 10, 2019, 09:21:06 PM
 #10

It will be bigger soon definitely but it doesn't mean just because Wall Street is becoming involved with it, we have to celebrate. Crypto market had grown already and additional adoptions are a plus.

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.
Same sentiment, we do feel the same thing on this. But we have to see that thing, there will be no motion if they won't get involved.

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February 10, 2019, 09:42:59 PM
 #11

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

People have been saying that for many years. It's an unrealistic way of framing things. It's not like on a specific date, a faucet gets turned on and all of a sudden, there's Wall Street money flooding the market, BTC to $5 Billion per coin!

That's not how markets work and it's definitely not how Wall Street works. Institutional money has been trickling into the crypto markets for several years now. That's undeniable fact. This trickle will continue to grow over time, and not necessarily in the spot markets. Will new custody solutions or regulated markets help? Sure, but again, we're not going to the moon tomorrow because of it.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

I agree. People underestimate the effect that leveraged paper trading and collateral rehypothecation can have on the spot market. The supply perceived by the market could be significantly diluted and the price obviously won't benefit from that.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?

The jury is out. I'm not sure how things will work out. There's lots of potential for manipulation that will hurt retail investors like us though. On the other hand, if Bitcoin continues growing as a recognized store-of-value asset, there are other forces at play. Precious metal bugs and other speculators, even central banks eventually may want some exposure as a hedge. And they won't necessarily be content holding paper bitcoins. That could also have a powerful effect on the market.

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February 11, 2019, 03:57:49 AM
 #12


If wall street enters a coin, I think this is extraordinary, remember that on Wall Street there are many stock indicators that are a reference for the protection of the world market. This will greatly affect the region and develop stock exchanges and Crypto.
Of course Wall Stret takes this step by considering all its considerations.
This will have a tremendous impact on Crypto, and this is a special advantage for Bitcoin, This can help reduce the volatility of the price of digital currencies and will pave the way for digital currencies to be accepted as a payment tool for everyday transactions.

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February 11, 2019, 06:01:39 AM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #13


If wall street enters a coin, I think this is extraordinary

Okay.  Let me explain something here.
When you borrow 200,000$ from the bank to buy a home, they don't actually give you a briefcase with 200,000$ cash in it. In fact, they don't even have to have any money in their vaults to loan it to you. What they do is they write down that you owe them 200,000$. It's just an entry on their ledger.

And the guy you buy the house from, he doesn't get 200,000$ in a briefcase either. The bank just adds that amount on their ledger.

I'm not even joking here. This is actually written into law and it's called fractional reserve banking. A.k.a. the ability for the bank to loan out 200$ when they only have 10$ in their vault.

This is why your bank will give you a really hard time if you try to cash out a large enough sum of money. They'll say you could be a suspected terrorist or drug dealer. And they will try really hard to make you change your mind. In fact, here in Canada, it's actually illegal to walk around with that much cash in your wallet or in your car.

The bank won't have a problem with you if you try to deposit a million$ in cash. But if you try to withdraw just 10,000$ out of that million, you might be a terrorist.

Banks are actually terrified of the idea that everybody suddenly decide to withdraw their money in cash. Simply because they don't have it. And so they would have to tell you you can't withdraw your money. This is called a run on banks. When the banks are not capable of giving you the money you deposited in your account.

Now take this idea over to your investment broker. When you call him up and you tell him you want to invest some of your money in gold, he never actually sends you a gold bar for you to keep under your pillow. What he will do is give you paper gold. That is, he will give you a gold certificate with a serial number on it. And he will tell you that this is the serial number of your gold bar.

And he will tell you that your gold is stored safely in a vault somewhere. And every month he will charge you a small fee for your gold storage. Now the average Joe might think he owns a gold bar but he doesn't. Possession is nine tenth of the law. In other words, ,if you don't hold it in your hand, you don't own it. So the only thing that the average Joe owns is a piece of paper, an IOU for a gold bar, nothing else.

But what your broker doesn't tell you is that he is selling the same paper gold to 10 or 20 other people. So an other 20 other people are walking around thinking they own the same gold bar as you do. And most interestingly, they all pay monthly storage fees for that same gold bar.

Now, naturally the average Joe thinks that the more people invest in gold, the more the price will go up. But in fact, with paper golf, the more people invest in gold, the more worthless it becomes.

After all, gold is valuable because it's rare. Not everyone  is able to walk around with a gold bar in their coat. So that's why it's so expensive to own gold.

But if everyone is walking around with a gold certificate in their coat, than suddenly gold doesn't look like it's so rare and valuable anymore.

The more you buy gold certificates, the lower the price of gold will get.

Some people call this a form of fractional reserve banking. Others call it rehypotecation. And yes, it's legal too.

Do you see now why I don't think Wall Street and banks getting involved in Bitcoin is a good idea?

Your bank and your broker will never give you actual keys for your coin. They'll just give you a Bitcoin certificate.

Bitcoin is the revolution against greedy crooked bankers and brokers. It's not supposed to be one of their tools for profit and control.
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February 11, 2019, 06:54:21 AM
 #14

On simple terms wall street or institutional investors i imagine may not
be interested in creating a wallet, buying their bitcoin and securing that
wallet for future liquidation or trading just like I imagine they are not
interested in buying, storing, securing, transporting and trading actual
gold bars.

So many people are only interested in institutional investors coming into
bitcoin investing in order to give themselves big returns, which may not
happen. A lot of people thought this when the "futures" trading started.

R


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February 11, 2019, 06:57:21 AM
Merited by romero121 (2)
 #15

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?

It's not only Wall Street.It's the CBOE and CME that want bitcoin derivatives.The whole Bakkt project is about bitcoin futures/derivatives.This is what the institutional investors want.I guess that they just want to store btc.
But if you buy such derivative,the entity that owns the real btc that backs that derivative might scam buy.
This is just another level of centralization.

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February 11, 2019, 07:24:12 AM
 #16

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?

It's not only Wall Street.It's the CBOE and CME that want bitcoin derivatives.The whole Bakkt project is about bitcoin futures/derivatives.This is what the institutional investors want.I guess that they just want to store btc.
But if you buy such derivative,the entity that owns the real btc that backs that derivative might scam buy.
This is just another level of centralization.
As it has the potential to contribute big to the world, the large scale centralized networks try to be the early investors. In such a way not only Wall Street or CBOE, majority of the financial institutions were into the crypto. Already most of the financial institutions have invested big into crypto indirectly, as the direct involvement will ruin their business stature.
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February 11, 2019, 07:41:59 AM
 #17

In a way, we already have this in the form of Bitcoin Futures, " Futures trading gives new investors the choice to bet against Bitcoin and also allows them to settle contracts in dollars, boosting their liquidity. Plus, Bitcoin futures allows investors to trade off the cryptocurrency without actually owning it. This protects them from any volatility in the real-time spot market." - Source : http://theconversation.com/how-bitcoin-futures-trading-could-burst-the-cryptocurrencys-bubble-88971

The latest submissions to the SEC are in the form of Bitcoin ETFs <It is backed by actual bitcoins, but the investors are not in possession of the actual coins <private key>, because they do not want to worry about the security or storage of those bitcoins.

This opens up institutional investment into Bitcoin, but it is similar to the "certificates" that you mentioned with Gold and Silver in your post.

Is this risky for the investor? Yes. <True Bitcoiners always have control over their private keys, because it is similar to having physical Gold or Silver in your possession.>  

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February 11, 2019, 08:08:43 AM
 #18

Hey guys. I'm very active on Quora. There a great many people are predicting tgat cryptos will get bigger soon as Wall Street is working to get invested in cryptos. They all think that once banks bring their massive funds into crypto, that the price will go sky high.

I'm not so optimist. I think Wall Street getting into Bitcoin can only mean bad things. Mainly rehypotecation and paper bitcoin allowing countless people to invest in Bitcoin 'certificates' rather than owning actual Bitcoin.

How do you guys feel about that?
You think Wall Street money getting pumped into Bitcoin can be a good thing?

I for one only see bad stuff down that road. Bitcoin  is supposed to be the death of Wall Street, not it's instrument.

Your thoughts?

It's not only Wall Street.It's the CBOE and CME that want bitcoin derivatives.The whole Bakkt project is about bitcoin futures/derivatives.This is what the institutional investors want.I guess that they just want to store btc.
But if you buy such derivative,the entity that owns the real btc that backs that derivative might scam buy.
This is just another level of centralization.
As it has the potential to contribute big to the world, the large scale centralized networks try to be the early investors. In such a way not only Wall Street or CBOE, majority of the financial institutions were into the crypto. Already most of the financial institutions have invested big into crypto indirectly, as the direct involvement will ruin their business stature.
and actually it good start for cryptocurrency market to recoverey its price.and one of richest  man in the world already be the seed investors in BAKKT , and i think it will attract more billionaire to invest their money into cryptocurrency.it just only about time like Binance's CEO said.dont forget to FIDELITY already in final test.
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February 11, 2019, 08:16:25 AM
Merited by Pepe Lapiu (3)
 #19

˜

This explanation is actually pretty close to the reality. I mean why would wall street really be giving them real bitcoins if they already have such ways of luring people with digital certification. Its truly intriguing how they illustrate people about the owing of physical bullions. When it will come to the bitcoin then they will surely have some boded digital platforms via which they will be given bitcoins but not the real one, just the illusion of same as OP stated.

This will never ever create any real demand about the bitcoin. Because for demand to get hyped, actual bitcoin must be bought from the circulation. :-)

So yeah, it could be the case that Wall Street will never be able to hype this market at all.

If there comes any pseudo marketing due to the fact that Wall Street being entering into market, then there will be smaller portion of population which will go and buy bitcoin in the hope that they will see it hiking one day. But without that its just hope.

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February 11, 2019, 12:29:14 PM
 #20

My fear is that if Wall Street actually gets around to invest in Bitcoin, they will not issue any actual Bitcoin to their customers anymore than they are issuing actual gold bars to their customers. They will just sell 'paper Bitcoin' or bitcoin certificates to their customers. 

This, I think, would be happening at a larger scale in the near future. They know for a fact that not all people would love to get themselves in a hassle of storing and keeping their assets safe, so they'd go to a trustworthy bank and let the institution handle their money for them. What amazes me is that they are able to do this thing for decades, and have even invented fancy names for the fraud that they are doing. I'm not afraid of institutional investors coming in to crypto; what I'm afraid is if people are too gullible enough to let the banks rip them off of their money thinking they got a better deal on crypto.

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