Institutional money into Crypto?

[munareal]

Bitcoin was created to solve the problems associated with fiat currency. I can not invest in bitcoin and be given a paper certificate. If this is done the aim of bitcoin has been defeated.

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[deisik]

My fear is that if Wall Street actually gets around to invest in Bitcoin, they will not issue any actual Bitcoin to their customers anymore than they are issuing actual gold bars to their customers. They will just sell 'paper Bitcoin' or bitcoin certificates to their customers

Cash-settled Bitcoin futures are essentially those bitcoin certificates

And they have been around since November 2017 if I'm not wrong on the dates. However, they didn't attract a lot of investors, so there is no reason to think that these certificates would necessarily do better. And keep in mind that they can't fool anyone into thinking they have real bitcoins while there are in fact none

The rumors are circulating non-stop that there is less gold in the COMEX vaults than the amount bought with physically-settled gold futures, and that may in fact be true. But this trick is set to fail with Bitcoin as it is easy for everyone to see on the blockchain how many bitcoins they actually have

[Pepe Lapiu]

We need to have institutional investment in bitcoin if we are to see huge numbers like everyone dreams about

Guys who have been involved in Bitcoin for a while don't think the price of Bitcoin is all that important. What we view as very important is that the number of Bitcoin users increase while the platform remains anonymous, decentralized, affordable, and unregulated.

The only people who are concerned with the price of Bitcoin are those who never even heard of Bitcoin before 2017. And they think it's some sort of get-rich-quick investment vehicle.

If you want your bank to offer Bitcoin mutual funds and if you want your government to regulate/legislate Bitcoin, you are completely missing the boat on what Bitcoin stands for.

For a very very oversimplified explanation of why banks/government/institutions into Bitcoin is a terrible idea, I suggest you read my 13# on this thread: found here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5108256.msg49685666#msg49685666

And if you want a much better explanation than mine, here is Andreas Antonopoulos (a.ka. Bitcoin Buddah) explaining it very eloquently:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LgI0liAee4s&t=262s

i am not sure how they can provide bonds and certificates with bitcoin without owning one

Any time you invest in Bitcoin and you don't have the keys in your wallet, you are not investing in Bitcoin at all.
Again, for a really oversimplified and dumbed down explanation, re-read my post 13# on this thread.

you really cannot issue bitcoin or any bonds without any collateral, if they issue bonds in the name of bitcoin they need to have real bitcoin as collateral.

This is what you believe based on your unshakable faith in the establishment and banksters. In fact when it comes to gold, I can buy an unallocated certificate, or an allocated one. They are the exact same price, except the unallocated one doesn't even pretend to have a gold bar attached to it.

I don't buy neither, I buy physical gold. And you can't buy that from a bank or from a broker.

Regulation will be coming up in near future so that we will have some clarity regarding those.

If it moves, government wants to tax it.
If it keeps moving, government wants to regulate it.
If it stops moving, government wants to subsidise it.

If you look around you today, you can't name a single thing or action that doesn't involve government legalizing it, legislating it, taxing it, standardizing it, permitting it, licencing it, subsidizing it, or restricting it.

And it greatly saddens me to watch statists beg for more government intervention into everything. It saddens me even more to see the Bitcoin community invaded by a bunch of government loving and Wall Street loving statists.

[deisik]

you really cannot issue bitcoin or any bonds without any collateral, if they issue bonds in the name of bitcoin they need to have real bitcoin as collateral.

This is what you believe based on your unshakable faith in the establishment and banksters. In fact when it comes to gold, I can buy an unallocated certificate, or an allocated one. They are the exact same price, except the unallocated one doesn't even pretend to have a gold bar attached to it.

I don't buy neither, I buy physical gold. And you can't buy that from a bank or from a broker

So you are a gold bug?

Okay then, but I don't think we can compare gold to Bitcoin for the purposes discussed here. When you buy an allegedly allocated gold certificate, you can't check whether this gold actually exists and allocated to you personally. But with Bitcoin it is different as no one will be buying Bitcoin certificates without being able to check whether their bitcoins actually exist (even if they don't have the keys)

This question had been discussed in great detail in the past, and the consensus was such these institutions will be interested in full transparency regarding their operation (as Bitcoin easily allows such transparency) lest they should fail to attract a lot of investments and investors. That's the power of the blockchain

[Pepe Lapiu]

Most people here don't care about crypto vs the banks.  They just want their bags to be pumped so they can dump for fiat money.  There aren't many hardcore libertarian left in bitcoin.

Yeah, I'm starting to realise that. I was mining in early 2009. And after 10 years away, I decide to come back. And this is what the community has become? A bunch of greedy people more concerned with the price than anything else while completely misunderstanding what Bitcoin stands for.

In this thread I've come to realise that a great many people here would gladly get rid of their coin to get paper coin issued by their bank or broker.

This is not helping one single bit.

[deisik]

Most people here don't care about crypto vs the banks.  They just want their bags to be pumped so they can dump for fiat money.  There aren't many hardcore libertarian left in bitcoin.

Yeah, I'm starting to realise that. I was mining in early 2009. And after 10 years away, I decide to come back. And this is what the community has become? A bunch of greedy people more concerned with the price than anything else while completely misunderstanding what Bitcoin stands for.

In this thread I've come to realise that a great many people here would gladly get rid of their coin to get paper coin issued by their bank or broker.

This is not helping one single bit

If you ask me, this is a very lopsided view

While you personally may be in for quite a long time and not going to spend or exchange even a single satoshi for fiat, no matter what the price might be (though I seriously doubt that), having Bitcoin's price tag over 3k helps a lot even if you are an early adopter (you know, life circumstances and all that). But this price simply wouldn't be possible without all these greedy people sticking around. Without them Bitcoin would likely remain mostly unknown to anyone out there (I mean common people), with its development stagnating heavily (provided Bitcoin would be developed at all). In short, cast no dirt into the well that gives you water

[Pepe Lapiu]

If you ask me, this is a very lopsided view

While you personally may be in for quite a long time and not going to spend or exchange even a single satoshi for fiat, no matter what the price might be (though I seriously doubt that), having Bitcoin's price tag over 3k helps a lot even if you are an early adopter (you know, life circumstances and all that). But this price simply wouldn't be possible without all these greedy people sticking around. Without them Bitcoin would likely remain mostly unknown to anyone out there (I mean common people), with its development stagnating heavily (provided Bitcoin would be developed at all). In short, cast no dirt into the well that gives you water

I'm not against greed and profit. Greed and profits are good things.
But it's blatantly obvious from reading this thread that most people don't understand what the philosophy of Bitcoin is. Some comments outright welcome legislation and regulation.
Don't these people understand that Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat? Don't they understand that banks, government, and Wall Street are the ennemy of Bitcoin?

How many of the people on this thread do you think would be jumping up and down if tomorrow their bank manager offered them a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin credit card?

Greed is good. If you are going to buy Bitcoin at low price and sell it at high price,this is actually good for Bitcoin as it helps stabilise the price and makes it more suitable as a stable store of value and currency.

I don't have a problem at all with profit. I'm not a communist. I just realise that most people on here only view Bitcoin as an investment vehicle and they would be willing to trade anonymity, and unadulterated free market for legislation and regulation if they are given the promis of more profit.

[voztata]

I don’t really see anything wrong with that. Bitcoin is not actually owned and controlled by anyone or group of people.

Although it can be manipulated, that’s why you are being told the price is based on the rate of demand and supply. Those who are rich will invest a huge to pump the price and when it happens they will quickly withdraw and price will start to fall again. So if they invest their money, the only thing that’s going to happen is that price will rise and that’s it.

[Pepe Lapiu]

Bitcoin was created to solve the problems associated with fiat currency. I can not invest in bitcoin and be given a paper certificate. If this is done the aim of bitcoin has been defeated.

Yup, that is precisely the whole point of Bitcoin.
And if I ever find a paper Bitcoin, I am hanging it on my wall of shame.
But given that a great many people within this community fon't seem to understand the fundamental value and idea of Bitcoin, if they welcome regulation and Wall Street, what are the chances that the normal Joe on the street will also welcome all that as well?

If Wall Street and banks get their teeth onto Bitcoin, we will see paper coin, coin certificates, and coin oriented mutual funds appear as well as a host of other forms of Bitcoin derivatives. All those would be very bad for Bitcoin.

As I stated earlier, I buy gold and silver. And so I know a few people who invest in gold and silver too. Sadly almost all of them don't even know what an once bar even looks like. They all have gold certificates and gold based investment vehicles. And they all seem to think it's the exact same thing as owning actual gold.

I have little doubt that these people would prefer to have coin derivatives instead of the actual keys.

[deisik]

If you ask me, this is a very lopsided view

While you personally may be in for quite a long time and not going to spend or exchange even a single satoshi for fiat, no matter what the price might be (though I seriously doubt that), having Bitcoin's price tag over 3k helps a lot even if you are an early adopter (you know, life circumstances and all that). But this price simply wouldn't be possible without all these greedy people sticking around. Without them Bitcoin would likely remain mostly unknown to anyone out there (I mean common people), with its development stagnating heavily (provided Bitcoin would be developed at all). In short, cast no dirt into the well that gives you water

I'm not against greed and profit. Greed and profits are good things.
But it's blatantly obvious from reading this thread that most people don't understand what the philosophy of Bitcoin is. Some comments outright welcome legislation and regulation.
Don't these people understand that Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat? Don't they understand that banks, government, and Wall Street are the ennemy of Bitcoin?

How many of the people on this thread do you think would be jumping up and down if tomorrow their bank manager offered them a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin credit card?

Now you don't see the whole picture

There is no other way if we want Bitcoin to succeed in the end. All in all, your position comes down to challenging and defying governments ("Bitcoin was set up to fight against government fiat"). This is definitely not the way to go because it is just stupid and would pretty much be equal to fighting with windmills. There is another approach more subtle and thus more promising over the long term

We should let the governments regulate Bitcoin as they please and see fit as we can't stop them anyway. At the same time no one can stop you from using truly private currencies either if you are actually looking for a fight. And Bitcoin's greater popularity among wider public will also contribute to your cause as well

[Pepe Lapiu]

Look, I understand that you want your Bitcoin to go up in price so you can turn a profit. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Where you are wrong is thinking that regulations and Wall Street involvement is going to somehow make the Bitcoin price go up. You think it will bring Bitcoin into the mainstream.

The problem here is that government and banks are not interested in finding a better alternative to fiat which they control. They are not interested in surrendering their control of money, and the supply of money.

Government doesn't want you to have money they can't track, money they can't control and steal from you via taxation and inflation is not what they are after.

And all that Wall Street wants to do is offer you derivatives (a.k.a. paper Bitcoin) for you to invest in.

When they figured out a way to issue paper gold, they effectively diluted the price of actual gold. Because countless people prefer to hold paper gold over actual gold. They are bring told this paper gold is safer, more regulated, and just as valuable as actual physical gold.

Same thing with Bitcoin. If they can sell you a Bitcoin derivative of any sort, instead of selling you the actual keys, they are effectively diluting the price of Bitcoin.

All this is very difficult to explain if you actually believe legislators have your best interest at heart. And it's even harder to explain if you actually believe there is a piece of gold behind every gold certificate in circulation.

And it's simply false to assume we need legislators and Wall Street to get involved to promote Bitcoin. If this was the case, crack cocaine would be dirt cheap.

In fact I wish governments all around the world would outlaw Bitcoin.  At least it would prevent Wall Streel and banksters from openly offering derivatives which have nothing to do with actually holding coin.

[Cryptock]

The time for really big players is coming. More whales on cryptocurrency market will give better stabilization. At the beginning always happen strange things and manipulations. With time it all will work for better Bitcoin in the future.

[Pepe Lapiu]

The time for really big players is coming. More whales on cryptocurrency market will give better stabilization. At the beginning always happen strange things and manipulations. With time it all will work for better Bitcoin in the future.

The banks and government have been handling the USD for the last 100 years ever since it was gradually taken off the gold standard. And as a direct result the USD lost 98% of it's value throught inflation and the USA racked up a 22 trillion $ debt.
And you think these creeps will do go to Bitcoin?  Like they did so good with the USD?

[deisik]

Look, I understand that you want your Bitcoin to go up in price so you can turn a profit. And there is nothing wrong with that

Actually no, personally I'd prefer if Bitcoin stayed where it is now but with added volatility (say, within the 1k range)

Where you are wrong is thinking that regulations and Wall Street involvement is going to somehow make the Bitcoin price go up. You think it will bring Bitcoin into the mainstream

If you are right, then it should bring more volatility. If you are wrong (and I'm right), then it should bring higher prices, as simple as it gets

The problem here is that government and banks are not interested in finding a better alternative to fiat which they control. They are not interested in surrendering their control of money, and the supply of money.

Government doesn't want you to have money they can't track, money they can't control and steal from you via taxation and inflation is not what they are after

What government do you refer to here? Anyway, there is no agreement between powers, so any government in particular doesn't mean a shit on its own

And all that Wall Street wants to do is offer you derivatives (a.k.a. paper Bitcoin) for you to invest in.

When they figured out a way to issue paper gold, they effectively diluted the price of actual gold. Because countless people prefer to hold paper gold over actual gold. They are bring told this paper gold is safer, more regulated, and just as valuable as actual physical gold

It won't work with Bitcoin because you can't sell paper bitcoins without providing a means to validate them, i.e. whether they are actually backed up by real ones. This is the difference between gold and Bitcoin. They have already tried to pull off this trick by creating cash-settled Bitcoin derivatives (i.e. futures) and they fell flat on their face. Their effort mostly failed as no one got interested in this shit. That likely explains why there is no Wall Street with Bitcoin (and may never be)

As you can't fool the blockchain

[Pepe Lapiu]

When you buy a mutual fund, you don't get any voting rights within that fund when it's investing in stocks of a given company. In fact the fund manager doesn't get any voting rights either.
And if that mutual fund has investments in gold, you don't get to touch a gold bar, and neither does the fund manager.
So what on earth makes you think if there is a crypto mutual fund, that you will get the keys?

If you think your broker of fund manager are going to buy Bitcoin for you and hold the keys for you, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work on Wall Street.

If you think your bank is going to allow you to deposit and spend Bitcoin, and loan you Bitcoin to buy anything by giving you the actual keys to your loaned coin, you are sadly mistaken on how things really work in the banking world.

[Pepe Lapiu]

If you buy a gold derivative, you are not actually buying gold.
If you buy a Bitcoin derivative, you are not buying an actual Bitcoin.
When your fund manager or broker tells you your portfolio has a given % of cryptos, they will not send you the keys for you to hold.
When you tell your broker to invest in gold, he doesn't tell you to go to the gold dealer and buy a bar of gold. Ask yourself why.
And so when you will tell your broker to invest in Bitcoin, he will never ever tell you to go to Coinbase and load up on Bitcoin keys.

Wall Street will not plug in an Antminer or buy a Tresor for the benefit of their clients. The faster you can understand this, the better off you will be.

Just take the gold market as an example. The market for gold derivatives is 20x bigger than the actual gold supply. And you can increase the gold derivative market to double of what it is now, it will have only negative effects on the actual gold price.

But keep telling yourself that what doesn't work for gold will work for cryptos. Good luck with than.

[deisik]

When you buy a mutual fund, you don't get any voting rights within that fund when it's investing in stocks of a given company. In fact the fund manager doesn't get any voting rights either.
And if that mutual fund has investments in gold, you don't get to touch a gold bar, and neither does the fund manager.
So what on earth makes you think if there is a crypto mutual fund, that you will get the keys?

In fact, nothing makes me think so

If you were reading my posts here carefully, I never mentioned the transfer of keys to the owners of bitcoins (Bitcoin certificates, more specifically). I meant that the funds should be interested in convincing people that they actually own the bitcoins they claim they have. If they do, then they wouldn't be able to create more paper bitcoins then there are real ones. On the other hand, if they fail to do that, investors will stay away from such funds

[Pepe Lapiu]

Look dude, I really don't feel like explaining to you how derivatives and paper gold/coin work and how corrupt and destructive the banking system and Wall Street really are.

It would take a few books to explain it to you because it would take way too long. You can start by watching a really good movie with Steve Cartel and Brad Pit called 'The Big Short'. And if you are more of a book worm, as I am, you can read 'The Creature From Jekyll Island'.

In the end most people who invest in gold are only too happy to buy derivatives and paper gold instead of the actual bullion. And most people don't even bother to find out if it's really backed by gold or not as they don't even care. When people tell me they invest in gold, I pull out an once bar. And pretty much all if them are amazed and confess they never saw a gold bar before.

I can assure you that Wall Street getting into Bitcoin will have the same result.

Of course some people who hold a paper Bitcoin might demand to have the actual coin. But the vast majority of investors never do that.

[deisik]

Look dude, I really don't feel like explaining to you how derivatives and paper gold/coin work and how corrupt and destructive the banking system and Wall Street really are

I don't care about how corrupt and destructive Wall Street is

It is enough for me to know that they can't corrupt Bitcoin, and that (as I explained above) is likely one of the reasons (if not the sole reason) why they have been staying away from it for so long. In this way, you may continue to make noise (like "it would take a few books to explain it to you"), but it still won't make Bitcoin more corruptible or destructible. Bitcoin is not gold (in this regard), and all your actions with it are public and can be pretty much considered set in stone (e.g. who paid whom and how much)

[mikeywith]

Most people here don't care about crypto vs the banks.  They just want their bags to be pumped so they can dump for fiat money.  There aren't many hardcore libertarian left in bitcoin.

let's be realistic,  liberation and financial freedom comes from owning way above average of whatever that majority of people accept as a method of payment one-way or the other. if you are a poor kid and you are not working on it, bitcoin won't help you.

if tomorrow we wake up and every bank out there closes their doors, and the whole world elect bitcoin to be the one and only measurement of wealth, are we all going to be liberated? indeed not, those with more bitcoin stacking will be liberated and happy while the rest will be just as miserable they are now.

financial freedom is always about the "quantity" , how you scale/measure it does not matter, bitcoin,gold,cash,sheep,cows, lands or anything for that matter.

bitcoin's major and probably only strength over traditional system  is "anonymity", and you will never be liberated with 0.1 btc hiding in your wallet.