How many Bitcoin do you think Wall St will own

[crzy]

Hundreds of thousands. They began investing in October 2017.

Yeah, they own a lot and I think they started to adopt early that year, and for sure they invest more during the dumped moment of cryptomarket. Well, they will create money if they continue to support bitcoin. It looks like they are serious on this one, let's see their plan later on.

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[thecodebear]

Hundreds of thousands. They began investing in October 2017.

Yeah, they own a lot and I think they started to adopt early that year, and for sure they invest more during the dumped moment of cryptomarket. Well, they will create money if they continue to support bitcoin. It looks like they are serious on this one, let's see their plan later on.

I doubt they own very much yet. I'm sure a very small number of institutions own a small amount of bitcoin, but I'd say its like 1% of what they might end up buying in the next couple of years.

[traderethereum]

Hundreds of thousands. They began investing in October 2017.

Yeah, they own a lot and I think they started to adopt early that year, and for sure they invest more during the dumped moment of cryptomarket. Well, they will create money if they continue to support bitcoin. It looks like they are serious on this one, let's see their plan later on.

If they bought in October 2017 and they are not sold in December 2017-January 2018, then I think right now, they are loss big money because now bitcoin price is down too deep. And if they still have bitcoin, they must hold tight the bitcoin until the price can increase more than $15k so they can sell and get those profit. I don't know how much bitcoin Wall Street have because we don't know if they get involved in bitcoin too or not. But I think they are right now using this chance to buy as much bitcoin as they can.

[deisik]

why do you guys think that's so impossible? why would you assume legacy institutions like ICE have the best of intentions and want to give away potential profits? just because "they believe in bitcoin"? lol, i'm not that gullible

It is possible, indeed

But you are looking at it without taking into consideration the difference between gold and Bitcoin. Fractional reserve is possible with gold (as well as everything else) because there is no definitive way to check whether gold certificates (I intentionally avoid using the term paper gold here) are (not) backed up by gold (think of it as exploiting the benefit of doubt). This is not the case with Bitcoin, and that's the point which you seem to deliberately ignore as it is not the first time I point it out

[sirohige]

Hundreds of thousands. They began investing in October 2017.

Yeah, they own a lot and I think they started to adopt early that year, and for sure they invest more during the dumped moment of cryptomarket. Well, they will create money if they continue to support bitcoin. It looks like they are serious on this one, let's see their plan later on.

investors can see the opportunity of falling bitcoin prices and they use that moment as well as possible to be able to buy as much bitcoin as they can by utilizing many people who panic it will only make investors able to get a lot of profits.

[el kaka22]

Not too much, bitcoin is a limited thing and its finite, if they want to buy too much of it the price would increase a lot and they would not be profiting from it. They do not want to buy bitcoin at a 20k+ price because the price could drop anytime and if they want to buy a lot of bitcoin than there is no other way than increase the price. That is the good part of bitcoin, its finite and since its finite there will never be anyone who buy too much of it, if they collected it before bitcoin became famous than they already did but from now on they can't do it since it would affect the price badly for them.

Wall street has a lot of money but they didn't become that rich by just putting their money on everything and just wait for the profit, they are smart and know how this is run so they won't do it neither.

[buwaytress]

Wall St should start tiptoeing into the bitcoin market this year with BAKKT, Fidelity, maybe goldman sachs, nasdaq, etc. In the next, let's say, 3 years how many Bitcoin do you think Wall St will buy up? This includes any financial product on Wall St, so I'm talking institutions and hedge funds buying it up, retail investors buying through ETFs, physical backed futures, etc. So any bitcoin bought through Wall St, since that will be a brand new market for bitcoin buyers.

Do you think they might buy up several million bitcoin over the next 3 years? If they buy in during the early part of the bull run, leaving the FOMOing masses to buy in higher, it would cost Wall St well under $100 billion to buy up a few million if they didn't wait too long, which is a small amount for Wall St as a whole. And what size effect on the price do you think it would cause if Wall St bought up say like 5 million bitcoin over the next two years?

Probably won't matter much, and probably it will come down to them not actually owning much. Because it's one thing to say that you've got funds, stocks, shares, ETF, futures contracts that show you're invested in Bitcoin, but quite another to say that you actually control the private keys to the bitcoin.

You think people are seriously waiting with bated breath for Bakkt? You think Sachs employees, nasdaq etc haven't already tiptoed into Bitcoin? They probably started years ago. Private equity began Bitcoin investments as early as 2014, and by 2016 every PE worth its weight was scrambling into crypto. They're probably all in tears now along with crypto funds, unless they capitalised at ATH (of course they didn't).

[deisik]

You think people are seriously waiting with bated breath for Bakkt? You think Sachs employees, nasdaq etc haven't already tiptoed into Bitcoin? They probably started years ago. Private equity began Bitcoin investments as early as 2014, and by 2016 every PE worth its weight was scrambling into crypto. They're probably all in tears now along with crypto funds, unless they capitalised at ATH (of course they didn't)

If they are in tears, then they should be

If they suffered severe loses, these people should be waiting for Bakkt as it might be their only chance to break even in the nearest future. That likely explains the attitude and words of the commissioner from the SEC. He might have bought a couple of bitcoins near or at the top and now he is deep in the red territory. If Bitcoin continues to magnate, we are going to see more voicing their stance and probable participation

[thecodebear]

Wall St should start tiptoeing into the bitcoin market this year with BAKKT, Fidelity, maybe goldman sachs, nasdaq, etc. In the next, let's say, 3 years how many Bitcoin do you think Wall St will buy up? This includes any financial product on Wall St, so I'm talking institutions and hedge funds buying it up, retail investors buying through ETFs, physical backed futures, etc. So any bitcoin bought through Wall St, since that will be a brand new market for bitcoin buyers.

Do you think they might buy up several million bitcoin over the next 3 years? If they buy in during the early part of the bull run, leaving the FOMOing masses to buy in higher, it would cost Wall St well under $100 billion to buy up a few million if they didn't wait too long, which is a small amount for Wall St as a whole. And what size effect on the price do you think it would cause if Wall St bought up say like 5 million bitcoin over the next two years?

Probably won't matter much, and probably it will come down to them not actually owning much. Because it's one thing to say that you've got funds, stocks, shares, ETF, futures contracts that show you're invested in Bitcoin, but quite another to say that you actually control the private keys to the bitcoin.

You think people are seriously waiting with bated breath for Bakkt? You think Sachs employees, nasdaq etc haven't already tiptoed into Bitcoin? They probably started years ago. Private equity began Bitcoin investments as early as 2014, and by 2016 every PE worth its weight was scrambling into crypto. They're probably all in tears now along with crypto funds, unless they capitalised at ATH (of course they didn't).

I think maybe a handful of institutions have put like 0.001% into bitcoin. I'm talking about what happens when they actually have Wall St approved exchanges and financial products for bitcoin opened up and they can legally allow clients to buy bitcoin through regulated wall st exchanges. Whatever money they have in it now is nothing compared to what they will put in it once all that is set up.

Wall St is very skeptical of bitcoin, which there are only a handful of bitcoin related things even announced at this point. It will probably take a few years for them to slowly step in. Right now they no doubt have a microscopic amount in bitcoin compared to what they will once they get regulated exchanges and products online and once they've started to tiptoe in and realize the world didn't end from them letting their clients buy bitcoin.

Sure some wealthy people have been investing in bitcoin, but i'm talking about the tens of trillions of dollars under management by institutional players. None of that has gone into bitcoin yet because there isn't any legal way for them to do it until regulated exchanges and products run by Wall St companies come online, which is what is starting this year.

[fabiorem]

They must be ahead of some of the firms, but yeah, no estimates would be safe to give. At most, Wall St. would surely just introduce bitcoin derivatives just like what they're doing with stocks right now. They wouldn't dive deeper than they could unless they are really sure on what they're doing. Also, if Wall St. alone takes a huge chunk of bitcoin in circulation, this will force people to move out of the market, and perhaps stay on other less controlled environments to prevent getting ripped off by Wall St. sharks.

They already did that. A lot of people sold their bitcoins at a loss. Those threads of hope are made by people itching to sell.

This bear market started right on the first day after CME had opened its futures markets to bitcoin. The question now is if this bear market will follow like the last one (in a four-year cycle), or if it will endure for more time (like it happened with precious metals, for instance). In the first case, it means the miners and the old whales are still in control. In the second case, it means that Wall Street is in control.

For now, the price is back to what it was before October 2017.

[figmentofmyass]

why do you guys think that's so impossible? why would you assume legacy institutions like ICE have the best of intentions and want to give away potential profits? just because "they believe in bitcoin"? lol, i'm not that gullible

It is possible, indeed

But you are looking at it without taking into consideration the difference between gold and Bitcoin.

again, you're fixating on gold for some reason, but rehypothecation is common practice with virtually all commodities and securities that trade on wall street.

Fractional reserve is possible with gold (as well as everything else) because there is no definitive way to check whether gold certificates (I intentionally avoid using the term paper gold here) are (not) backed up by gold (think of it as exploiting the benefit of doubt).

no, that's not the issue. the issue is that fractional reserve is legal. the amount of gold held in the JPM vaults gets periodically inspected by the CFTC staff---doesn't mean there's enough to back the market.

so firstly, in CFTC-regulated futures markets, contract volumes don't need to be fully backed by the underlying. the bitcoin blockchain doesn't help when CFTC rules don't give a shit about bitcoin's hard cap on supply.

secondly, you're only considering hypothecation (the original pledge of collateral). you keep ignoring the actual issue which is re-hypothecation, where bakkt can legally reuse collateral posted by their clients. this is purely an accounting issue. none of these transactions are happening on the blockchain---it's purely offchain based on collateral held in bakkt's vault.

what exactly are you or regulators going to "check" on the blockchain? the problem occurs when multiple different firms believe they have ownership of the same bitcoin (held in bakkt's vaults). this has the ultimate effect of reducing demand. when it only takes one physical bitcoin to create multiple paper bitcoins, it can absorb a lot more demand than the spot market.

[South Park]

There must be interest in bitcoin to these wall street wolves.
They only care about money and know when there is blood in the street its the time to buy.
All of them live and die by the words of their god and savior warren buffett.

They are definitely interested in anything that can make them money but they are not interested in investing in the market as it is, they are creating their own infrastructure so they can manipulate the price as they want, this is why I do not like bitcoin futures since they will be capable of manipulating the price of bitcoin without actually buying any.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I think that Wall Street will buy ZERO bitcoins during the next few years.
They will make money out of bitcoin backed derivatives trading fees(if bitcoin futures trading ever gets green light).Wall Street is a market,not a company.They don't buy and sell,they let the traders buy and sell and they charge a fee for allowing them to use the platform.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  The Wall Street collective has enough cash to buy all the bitcoin in existence several times over--and they can't do that without driving up the price while buying, or down while selling.  The only viable solution for them is to bet on the futures markets, just like they do with other currencies & commodities. 

That said, I don't know precisely what's available for crypto derivatives right now.  That's an area where only the big dogs play and that doesn't include me.  I'm just hoping that Wall Street doesn't somehow fuck everything up like they did in 2008.  Could happen.

[deisik]

I think that Wall Street will buy ZERO bitcoins during the next few years.
They will make money out of bitcoin backed derivatives trading fees(if bitcoin futures trading ever gets green light).Wall Street is a market,not a company.They don't buy and sell,they let the traders buy and sell and they charge a fee for allowing them to use the platform.

That's exactly what I was thinking.  The Wall Street collective has enough cash to buy all the bitcoin in existence several times over--and they can't do that without driving up the price while buying, or down while selling.  The only viable solution for them is to bet on the futures markets, just like they do with other currencies & commodities

That's what I've been thinking myself

And since the Wall Street "collective" (or criminals) can easily buy up all bitcoins out there (at current prices) and do that many times if they choose so, they are not interested in Bitcoin unless, as you rightfully assume, they inflate the Bitcoin derivatives market, which would be orders of magnitude greater than the spot market. But that would be equal to destroying Bitcoin if we assume they can actually do that in the first place (which is not given or certain)

[Bitcoinwaist]

some here are saying that wall street institutions will not buy any bitcoin is crazy talk. i agree they will make more trading futures or derivitives etc. but to say they will not take an actual position in digital btc is asinine. goto finance.yahoo.com. pick out a garbage stock that is trading on the nasdaq or nyse, click on the "major holders" and you will see at least one major institution has a position in it. So to say that wall street will not buy and hold btc is ridiculous. They take positions in everything just to have a position, regardless if its a sure thing or is a million to one long shot. Money is no object. Only time will tell how many they actually hold, but I dont think this will ever come to light until their bags are full.

[el kaka22]

They will not hold is something other than they will not hold a lot. Most of the time wall street companies hold a big portion of everything they get into and they are used to having controlling piece in any given company and try to rule the company to the most profitable way rather than the best way. It means if they were to get into bitcoin they would want to have the most coins out there they could but that would increase the price so much that when they want to sell it would create a huge problem.

When you want to buy bitcoin its always lovely and you can even buy OTC at any price you want at any time you want because its easy to find people who are willing to sell you bitcoins, there are always people who are willing to sell bitcoins and even if you can't find the right amount you can buy from thousand different people.

However, if you own 5 billion dollar worth of bitcoin how are you going to sell them ? It is impossible and its hard to find people to buy from that price as well.

[deisik]

why do you guys think that's so impossible? why would you assume legacy institutions like ICE have the best of intentions and want to give away potential profits? just because "they believe in bitcoin"? lol, i'm not that gullible

It is possible, indeed

But you are looking at it without taking into consideration the difference between gold and Bitcoin.

again, you're fixating on gold for some reason, but rehypothecation is common practice with virtually all commodities and securities that trade on wall street

It is not me. It was not me who brought forth the example of gold, so I was just following someone else's lead. But I agree that it doesn't matter as it might be the same with any other commodity out there. But not with Bitcoin

Fractional reserve is possible with gold (as well as everything else) because there is no definitive way to check whether gold certificates (I intentionally avoid using the term paper gold here) are (not) backed up by gold (think of it as exploiting the benefit of doubt).

no, that's not the issue. the issue is that fractional reserve is legal. the amount of gold held in the JPM vaults gets periodically inspected by the CFTC staff---doesn't mean there's enough to back the market

so firstly, in CFTC-regulated futures markets, contract volumes don't need to be fully backed by the underlying. the bitcoin blockchain doesn't help when CFTC rules don't give a shit about bitcoin's hard cap on supply

You don't get my point at all

It doesn't matter if Bakkt can legally reuse collateral and whether it is an accounting issue, even if they can and it is. You are missing the whole thing as it is not about believing but solid knowledge that the blockchain provides. No one is going to give a goddamn fuck about Bitcoin certificates unless there is a way to actually see if these certificates are backed by real coins, one by one. You can fool people with gold (or any other commodity) but Bitcoin is different

[sheenshane]

In the market of wallstreet, we don't know which companies really bought and will buy bitcoins to earn profitability with their company finances. Well, as of now I think wallstreet owns enough money to make profits for the next years. That is the only thing I think about wall street ownership of bitcoins. Wall street is well known for stock markets and traditional business corporate buildings. Bitcoin is new but I think they will also adopt blockchain soon.

[exstasie]

I think that Wall Street will buy ZERO bitcoins during the next few years.
They will make money out of bitcoin backed derivatives trading fees(if bitcoin futures trading ever gets green light).Wall Street is a market,not a company.They don't buy and sell,they let the traders buy and sell and they charge a fee for allowing them to use the platform.

Wall Street isn't just brokers. It's asset management firms, hedge funds, and others that need to park loads of capital. These are institutions with literally trillions of dollars in equity on their books. The Blackrocks, the Morgan Stanleys, the Vanguards of the world.

I'm not saying all that money is coming into Bitcoin, but Wall Street doesn't make all its money through brokering. They've got fingers in many pies.

[magneto]

Wall St should start tiptoeing into the bitcoin market this year with BAKKT, Fidelity, maybe goldman sachs, nasdaq, etc. In the next, let's say, 3 years how many Bitcoin do you think Wall St will buy up? This includes any financial product on Wall St, so I'm talking institutions and hedge funds buying it up, retail investors buying through ETFs, physical backed futures, etc. So any bitcoin bought through Wall St, since that will be a brand new market for bitcoin buyers.

Do you think they might buy up several million bitcoin over the next 3 years? If they buy in during the early part of the bull run, leaving the FOMOing masses to buy in higher, it would cost Wall St well under $100 billion to buy up a few million if they didn't wait too long, which is a small amount for Wall St as a whole. And what size effect on the price do you think it would cause if Wall St bought up say like 5 million bitcoin over the next two years?

To be honest, they probably won't own a lot of actual bitcoins.

I suspect that when the next big bull market swings around and many of the existing institutional investors that has entered the bitcoin market during this bearish stretch actually puts their plans into action, they will be dealing more so with bitcoin derivatives than actual bitcoins.

This is simply because most of these institutions aren't really interested in bitcoin as a technology, but rather bitcoin as an investment. And derivatives, ETFs etc. allows them to achieve better returns with leverage (theoretically) in a bull market, and is more convenient for them than having to set up a whole infrastructure for holding BTC. Does that mean they will hold absolutely 0 bitcoin? No. But I think the ratio of their holdings of bitcoin financial products to actual BTC will be significantly higher than what people expect.