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Author Topic: Validating vs mining nodes, really a myth ?  (Read 374 times)
Khaos77
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February 16, 2019, 12:46:25 AM
Last edit: February 16, 2019, 02:04:03 AM by Khaos77
 #21

khaos read some code
Quote from: Khaos77
Little secret for you, You are always trusting someone else,
Run a non-mining node and you are trusting the Mining Nodes that you sync with.
Connect to two different block explores and you are trusting the Mining Nodes, they sync with.
Either way , you're trusting the Mining Nodes.   Smiley
^ wrong

little secret. learn orphan, learn reject, learn consensus, learn honest nodes, learn symbiosis, learn byzantine generals.

if you sent me a block i can reject it if it doesnt fit the rules.. i dont blindly accept it
if i see out of 8 peers that 6 are showing blockheight 600,000 and 2 are showing blockheight 599,500
im gonna grab data from the 6 nodes that are at 600,000.
and then im gonna do my own checks, my own validations and only trust the data i find that is valid
i do not just grab the data and pass it on.

seriously go read some code or get a better node if all you have is a relay/repeater node (much like fibre)

You know the more you talk, it is like you are having a discussion outside of this one.

No one is saying the miners are trying to modify any of the consensus rules,
you're pulling that conversation from elsewhere.

The mining-nodes create/validate/relay blocks,
this nonsense you are babbling is that just because someone runs a version of a non-mining node and RELAYS the blocks created by the mining nodes that gives them authority over a network, that they have no power to even enter a transaction,

Dude , study reality because you're off in a fantasy land, where you think economic black mail by coinbase is the same as actual block validation of the mining-nodes, its not.

Monitoring a block explorer results gives the same verification as running a non-mining node,
because all either one gives you is verification that a transaction occurred.

Your additional confusion is that a large player such as coinbase may invoke economic power to coerce the miners to hold or modify consensus, that may or may not happen , no matter what happens with the network.
That is not Validation that is Economic Blackmail, and as such an outside issue unrelated to the bitcoin network normal workings, of which according to code design only the miners have power.

The part that should prove to you how useless your argument is , is you only mention coinbase, and ignore the dumb guy running a non-mining full node in his basement , because his non-mining node grants him no power, just as coinbase non-mining node grants them no power, all coinbase has is potential to cause some economic issues with crypto to fiat conversion, which even that is not going to give them as much clout as your confusion gives them.

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February 16, 2019, 03:00:00 AM
Last edit: February 16, 2019, 04:14:23 AM by franky1
 #22

The mining-nodes create/validate/relay blocks,
this nonsense you are babbling is that just because someone runs a version of a non-mining node and RELAYS the blocks created by the mining nodes that gives them authority over a network, that they have no power to even enter a transaction,
you again keep pretending that non-mining nodes do not validate..
try reading some code..
CODE not reddit
CODE

anyway
and to the same respect by your words.. saying that there should be no non-mining nodes. (because you dont understand)
if there were no non-mining node validation, then that would give all the power to miners to modify rules as they deem fit. because in your scenario there is no other party to say no to miners, no other symbiotic relationship to keep miners ontrack and honest.

so its your mindset of thinking non-mining nodes dont validate. that has stuck you in th realm of thinking that non-mining nodes are not needed.

but non-mining nodes DO validate thus there is a  mining/non-mining symbiotic relationship. everyone benefits from playing fairly and being honest in that relationship.. its called consensus.

if you want a network where all that exists is miners(federal mint) and explorers(banks/atms) go play with centralised FIAT

Dude , study fucking reality because you're off in a fantasy land, where you think economic black mail by coinbase is the same as actual block validation of the mining-nodes, its not.
no your going into fantasy land of there only being one mon-mining node (coinbase)..
the reality is there needs to be DIVERSE nodes that way everyone symbiotically plays fairly and all by the same rules.
(research diversity/consensus/byzantine generals theory)

EG if coinbase say no to miners(out of some social drama spite, yet the block is actually valid). but then bitstamp, bitpay, bitfinex and other say yes(the block is actually valid) then miners will spend their funds with other exchanges, and coinbase is left not getting blocks and thus not trading, thus coinbase is left out

AGAIN SYMBIOTIC relationship known as consensus.. learn it

Monitoring a block explorer results gives the same verification as running a non-mining node,
because all either one gives you is verification that a transaction occurred.
no.. a explorer just displays data. someone just viewing said data wont know if its accurate unless they themselves validate it.
non-mining nodes validate data.
READ THE CODE!!

just seeing a list of transactions from an explorer doesnt mean its valid. who knows what rule that explorer is following. unless you have a list of rules and your checking the data you see against the rules, you will never know if what a block explorer is providing is actually valid.

Your additional confusion is that a large player such as coinbase may invoke economic power to coerce the miners to hold or modify consensus, that may or may not happen , no matter what happens with the network.
again your fantasy land is that only coinbase exist.

reality is that there is more than just coinbase, if coinbase reject a block out of bias, but then dozens, hundreds of other merchants/users say yes. nodes will follow whats best
and coinbase loses out.

an economic blackmail would only be persuasive if the majority of major exchanges/merchants collectively said they want X
hmm.. like some NYA social drama.. to get people to accept sgwit1x, under some red-herring trick that if they accept x1 that 2x might be a possibility later.. all to try to get more of an adoption count for segwit1x in 2017

That is not Validation that is Economic Blackmail, and as such an outside issue unrelated to the bitcoin network normal workings, of which according to code design only the miners have power.
update your research



coinbase alone couldnt blackmail the network unless coinbase was the only merchant. (your fantasy land)
.. but the thing is.
remember 2017.. the NYA agreement that swayed people to maybe accept segwit by giving a red-herring flag of if you accept segwit1x then segwit 2x woud be an option.. just to try to get segwit1x adopted
yea NYA was a economic blackmail... segwit2x was not even a real bip. it was just a trick to get segwit1x gain adoption numbers above the 35%

yes, NYA, (big list of the major merchants) was a economic blackmail.
which, along with lukes controversial fork threat of UASF(hard pretending to be soft but the threat was hard) and other trickery of pushing opposers off the network, caused segwit1x to activate.. but doing so was by controversial means.

your flat 2 dimensional scenarios that seems to be based on a lame medium post rather than code reading and network topology understanding. is something you need to expand on.

you seem too stuck thinking non mining nods dont validate.. and the only purpose is to relay. break out of that mindset quickly by reading code and doing research. or you will just drive yourself in circles


The part that should prove to you how useless your argument is , is you only mention coinbase, and ignore the dumb guy running a non-mining full node in his basement , because his non-mining node grants him no power, just as coinbase non-mining node grants them no power, all coinbase has is potential to cause some economic issues with crypto to fiat conversion, which even that is not going to give them as much clout as your confusion gives them.

i mention coinbase as an example of a merchant... i didnt mention others as it would take pages to list them all. so by not mentioning others does not mean they dont exist. it jsut means i was saving time writing the thousands of merchants.

but your fantasy is going weirdly into a world where only coinbase exist as a non-mining node. simply because i didnt mention others.

again if there were no nonmining nodes to actually independently verify the transactions they see, then miners wont be held to any standard as they could make what they liked
people should not just trust what they get from third party as being law.

this is why non mining nodes (merchants/users) independently verify the transactions
but because merchants are personally involved in more transactions than a home users. because they handle so many trades and can be hurt by losses by not verifying, then yes it gives them more 'clout' than home users. as the miners and home users want merchants to see valid transactions. so people can spend with them merchants.

merchants wont want to just view some third party explorer.. blindly trust it and then give people products/fiat.. because 2 seconds later the explorer could show as being hacked and what was displayed was false info.

but the same respect goes the other way. its not just miners with funds to spend. its users too. so merchants need to be just as honest or users wont use the merchants

and by there being more than one merchant merchants stay honest because if they dont then people simply dont use that merchant
.......
so non-mining nodes will want to independently check what they see. if its going to cost them lots of funds/value by not checking.
so thats what they do. they verify what they get to ensure what they see is valid, and they reject whats invalid
this ensures the miner stay honest. merchants stay honest and home users stay honest. so that they all get the same data and all happy thats its al valid and they are all on the same network able to transact between one another.
they all see the same info they all independently verified without having to trust other parties(explorers)

bitcoin is about independent control, verification and not having to trust third parties for data.

seems as though your fantasy land is in a land where you think there is only 2 nodes in existence.
you really need to learn consensus mechanism, byzantine generals theory, the network symbiosis, rejects, orphans, honest nodes. validation code in non-mining nodes

try reading code and seeing the verification that non mining nodes do.
again if you personally are just running a 'repeater' node that just receives and relays without checking. then maybe you need to realise that its you thats not part of the main layer of the network symbiosis(consensus)

try reading more code, and try reading less reddit/medium

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February 16, 2019, 03:18:56 AM
 #23

A "full node" has lost many tasks since 2009, the most important being obviously the fact that full nodes also mined back then, see franky1 post.

However it's the best you can get for a wallet, specially in times of forks.

Also nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to run Core's software, anyone can start their own client, then convince people that you are better. Having massive datacenters running full clients would only make things worse for those that want to code and run their own implementations of Bitcoin.
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February 16, 2019, 04:24:16 AM
 #24

A "full node" has lost many tasks since 2009, the most important being obviously the fact that full nodes also mined back then,

actually a better explanation is that the definition of a full node has changed.
there was a "software" that had different "components" and different "responsibilities". one of them was the verification and  the other was mining. these two parts were separated from each other since not everyone was able to use the second part but the parts themselves are still the same.

with that said, there is no "mining nodes" versus "validating nodes". there is a validation component to this duo and a mining component. the miner doesn't validate anything while the verifying part doesn't mine anything. but they work hand in hand.   

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February 16, 2019, 06:13:42 AM
 #25

Newbies be educated.


Non-Mining Nodes don't validate anything,
they only RELAY blocks according to their consensus rules, they don't validate anything at all.


Wrong. Non-mining nodes fully validate. If someone sends a transaction or a block that isn't valid, in accordance to the consensus rules, it will not be relayed.

I cannot believe how widespread the misinformation about the topic is.

Quote

Which is why non-mining nodes don't really matter and their is no security advantage to having more non-mining nodes.


My node matters to me. I validate my own transactions, and I don't need to trust anyone to validate them for me.

Plus non-mining nodes prevents the network from centralizing towards the miners.

Quote

Only Mining Nodes can Validate, when they add an additional block , they validate the previous block.


Wrong.

Quote

Only Mining Nodes Matter.


Never forget. UASF. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/long-road-segwit-how-bitcoins-biggest-protocol-upgrade-became-reality/


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February 16, 2019, 06:52:20 AM
 #26

I find it interesting ,
that the difference between a Block Validation and a Transaction Verification is beyond many people's understanding.
And these very same morons , keep repeating nonsense, claiming others need to research, (when they are the stupid ones)
Well their is nothing to research and you morons are only going to fool the unknowing.

If any of these people even bothered to read Wright's article , it is apparent a non-mining node is irrelevant for network validation.
They want to attribute some magic nonsense to a non-mining node, that does not exist ,
confusing personal verification of transactions and economic blackmail with what a mining node does which is validation of a previous block, when new blocks are created. Notice their confusion keeps pointing to outside issues.
While they ignore the simple facts ,
turn off the mining nodes and the network dies, as no new blocks are created and no old blocks can be validated thru increased confirmations.
Without Mining Nodes, there are no new blocks for non-mining nodes to relay.
Turn off the non-mining nodes and no one gives a damn, because the non-mining nodes don't do shit to maintain the network.

There is really no point for me to continue this conversation ,
as the people only replying have proven themselves to just be damn fools by their nonsensical replies and utter lack of reasoning skills.  

Good Day to you all, and may God Protect you if you fall for their nonsense.

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February 16, 2019, 07:05:42 AM
 #27


If any of these people even bothered to read Wright's article


Hahahaha. That con-artist, serial forging, coin scammer? I will never take one look on that article. There's not enough water to wash off the dirt from my eyes. Cool


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February 16, 2019, 08:09:16 AM
Last edit: February 16, 2019, 08:22:09 AM by franky1
 #28

If any of these people even bothered to read CODE , it is apparent a non-mining node is relevant for network validation.
FTFY

but hey. you be ignorant to code and how the network actually works.
you continue to just read blogs.

now ask yourself.. are blogs important to network function.. or is code important to network function
hint: if you want to know how a network works, read code not blogs

Without Mining Nodes, because without a "NODE" you can still mine via SPV, CG miner and an ASIC
Turn off the non-mining nodes and everyone gives a damn, because the non-mining nodes are where people spend coins with AND maintain the network in a symbiotic relationship
FTFY

i use the term symbiotic relationship instead of 'consensus' because recent controversies that mess with consensus. due to a certain group have changed the meaning of true consensus as it was 2009-2013. so the only closest term would be symbiosis

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 16, 2019, 01:56:47 PM
 #29

this is not me saying only miners are needed.. as there is a symbioses at play where non mining nodes are needed.
but not everyone NEEDS to be a non-mining node with loads of connections (old term 'supernode')

my mindset is even if personally you only NEED to check certain addresses. the best thing to do is not strain your internet or other nodes experience by having over 100 connections diluting/bottlenecking your internet.
drop it to a couple connections so that the receivers of your data get the best experience and least bottlenecks


Cut the crap.

You are blatantly trying to twist Pieter Wuille's words to imply that a developer endorses your ridiculous notion that only businesses need to run nodes.  Here's that text again:  

Bitcoin by default will not make more than 8 outgoing connections, and -maxconnections only controls how many incoming connections you allow. Feel free to set this higher, but it will take time before others connect to you in large numbers.

Please don't change this, as there is no need. Connectable peers on the network are a scarce resource, and essential to the decentralization. If people go try connect to all of them like some sites do, we'll very quickly run out.

In case you're a merchant or miner, you perhaps want to set up a few fixed connections to trusted others (see the -addnode command line/config option), but having more connections does not mean stronger verification (the reference client always verifies everything) or even faster relaying (as you'll slow down by distributing new blocks and transactions to all your peers). It is mostly a matter of providing a service to the network.

Just in case there was any confusion on your part (and I'm pretty sure there isn't), this text is clearly stating that nodes already on the network should not connect to a greater number of nodes than necessary.  One single node gains no additional benefit from connecting to 50 other nodes when connecting to 8 would suffice (and, in fact, connecting to 50 actually harms the network).  This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with your baseless assertion that regular users don't "need" to run a node, or don't benefit from running a node (as if you were in any position to make that judgement for them), or that the network somehow doesn't benefit from additional nodes.  

You are free to express your mindset, just don't be a manipulative sack of excrement when you do.  If you misunderstood then please make that clear.  I can forgive an honest mistake.  But since you keep telling everyone you know what you're talking about and it's them who need to research, I naturally have to assume this is you being malicious.

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February 16, 2019, 02:33:04 PM
 #30

Hey guys,

i was pretty sure that validating nodes give us some kind of security even if they don't mine.
But now i got into a lot of discusssions with these BCH/SV guys and not 100% anymore Cheesy How does a full node prevennt double spending, its accepting the longest chain no matter what no ?
What else are they validating. Does a node operator has to do manual auditing of blocks to confirm no double spend happened?

so what is true or wrong about this article from this Faketoshi Craig ?

https://medium.com/@craig_10243/the-myth-of-the-full-validation-node-d7db52748649

pls not (only) hate, give me some answers i can learn from to understand it better.

Cheers  Grin


The double spend can happen in a PoW system no matter what happens because the system is designed in such a way. Although there is a huge possibility of double spending, there is only 0.1% probability of his attack to be successful.  A transaction needs 6 confirmations to be validated and probability of all the 6 confirmations to happen simultaneously is very very low and even if it does happen then the there will be at least a difference in confirmation time in the next block and hence the block with faster confirmations will win the race and will eliminate the other chain of invalid blocks. Hence the double spend attack won't be successful.



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February 16, 2019, 10:36:55 PM
 #31

Also, to put this entire topic into context, I'm pretty sure Khaos77 is Zin-Zang.  I can only assume they're a plant in this thread to make franky1 appear reasonable by comparison, but they're both worthless trolls.

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February 16, 2019, 11:06:10 PM
Last edit: February 16, 2019, 11:29:49 PM by franky1
 #32

doomad

not everyone does NEED to be a full node. thats what SPV is for. for the folks that dont need/want to be full nodes.
not everyone does NEED to have 100 connections. infact the more connections made the more your diluting your own benefit

no where, no how, no when, no why. did i ever say there is no NEED for regular users.
no where, no how, no when, no why. did i ever say there is everyone shouldnt be a full node

here is a basic summary:
imagine a home user with 5mb connection but 100 nodes connected.. thats 0.05mb per node (sending ~1.2mb 100x)
imagine a home user with 5mb connection but 2 nodes.. thats 2.5mb per node(sending 1.2mb 2x)

the second option is better for home user as the block is sent in seconds to just 2 users meaning speedy. also its only 2.4mb total instead of 120mb total.

now imagine it from the receiver side.. imagine a merchant was connected to a home node. the merchant wont want to get data at 0.05mb speed they would prefer 2.5mb speed
so not only will the home user benefit by lowering nodes connected but also the people on the other end would benefit too
its far better that a home user only connects to 1-2 nodes for own benefit and have just enough for own NEED, and let the merchants that have a higher NEED do the higher node connected higher bandwidth/sped connections. as they NEED it more

For that very reason I was inquiring about the usage of maxconnections with low values. If i understand correctly, using the value 10 would give me 8 nodes to connect to while allowing 2 nodes connect to me. The default is 125 which would allow 117 people to connect to me while i connect to 8 nodes.

125 connections might be a bit too much for a poor 1mbps down 300ish kbps up link...

exactly, lower the count down and youll save alot of bandwidth, thus allowing the speed you do have to be more concentrated on those that NEED connections

so doomad go turn your social drama brain and go play with someone else
or atleast spend more time on researching BITCOIN and lesstime with social drama

seems you dedicate more time trying to poke me then you spend learning or talking about bitcoin.
here is the simple lesson.

bitcoin is code.
code is not wrote by AI
code is wrote by devs.

so when i talk about bitcoin, code and devs. its very much ontopic for this forum.
when you want to meander and talk about me.. thats just social drama

again(from different topics). before you hit the reply button, trying to poke the bear in any topic. ask yourself.
are you going to talk about bitcoin and devs.
or
just poke at some social drama and people that have talked about devs, and bitcoin issues less than optimistically

and dont play the victim card like your the one thats receiving the social drama, because your an instigator of social drama
instead spend more time learning
or a better challenge.
for every post you have wrote in say the last 6 months containing an insult. try learning a bitcoin fact to atleast balance the ratio

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 18, 2019, 05:25:40 AM
 #33

Also, to put this entire topic into context, I'm pretty sure Khaos77 is Zin-Zang.  I can only assume they're a plant in this thread to make franky1 appear reasonable by comparison, but they're both worthless trolls.


You should read this, https://whowhatwhy.org/2016/01/27/disinformation-part-1-how-trolls-control-an-internet-forum/

Go to the topic on "forum sliding" and "inoculating the public against the truth".

I believe it's our responsibility to make the newbies more aware that there is always some socio-political attack on Bitcoin happening everyday.


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February 18, 2019, 12:18:04 PM
 #34

no where, no how, no when, no why. did i ever say there is no NEED for regular users.
no where, no how, no when, no why. did i ever say there is everyone shouldnt be a full node

I know you're not that stupid to say it such a direct fashion, because people would naturally take affront to that.  But are we supposed to take it as a coincidence that you constantly present the math to show the "bottleneck" home users create?  I see the utter contempt you show for such users.  Because they're the ones standing in the way of what you want.  It's clear you'd love to see them gone and just have businesses running full nodes so you could justify more throughput with less latency.  You would happily throw decentralisation under the bus at your earliest convenience.  No one is falling for it. 

The ideas you support have been implemented in other chains and those chains are failing to attract a sizeable userbase.  So, rather than accept the fact that no one likes your ideas, you campaign tirelessly to inflict your poison on this chain.  Even though we clearly don't want it. 

Here are just some of the topics where you blame home users for ruining your (horrific) vision of what Bitcoin "should" be:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5070680.msg48195853#msg48195853
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5086745.msg48750341#msg48750341
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5107437.msg49649494#msg49649494
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5086745.msg48748926#msg48748926

And my personal favourite:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5108368.msg49730373#msg49730373

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February 18, 2019, 12:52:38 PM
Last edit: February 18, 2019, 01:35:33 PM by franky1
 #35


blah blah insult blah

doomad, its your echo chamber that wants to deburden the bitcoin network of users.
now go do something useful like some code/network research instead of your flip flop social drama

your favourite quote shows that you and others FAILED totry flopping issues that slow internet users have.
you failed to realise its a known researched thing since pre 2011 and yet you try to insinuate it as a myth brought about by a scammer in 2016.. sorry but you failed. so yea. thats why i say try doing research before hitting reply

anyway the thing about home users is this:
their bandwidth/bottlnecking issue can easily be solved by just not being what used to be called "supernodes" (nodes with over 100 connections) to being nodes with just a few connections to give best effiecient experience for not only home user but the recipient of the data. thus reduce the "it uses too much bandwidth" cries

pieter wuilles quote was saying about dont change the setting UP, due to scare resources..

home users do not NEED to be super nodes as it doesnt help them or others by pushing their systems too hard.
this does not mean home users are useless to the network. it just means they have the wrong settings and not helping themselves. which is a different topic to the whole symbiotic relationship of code rules and auditing of data..
the home user bottleneck thing is more about use of speed to be efficient so that there are no cries and thus able to be an effctive node

your the one that wants home users to have bad user experience by trying to twist words. and you try to insinuate that home users should stick to high connection counts (meaning slow diluted internet speed per connection) all coz you want people to dislike the bitcoin network to persuade them to other networks

seems its you that wants home users to give up and just use LN

so just man up. find just one narrative of flip or flop and stick with it. be honest with yourself and others about your goal.
you pretend i have a campaign. and yet its obviously you that wants LN populated and bitcoin depopulated. so just man up and admit it

real funny part
i have tried to keep this and other topics on topic. and yt its th usual echo chamber tribe that meander in and turn discussions about bitcoin and the network. and turn it into poking the bear social drama of frankys said x/y/z
atleast windfury linked where he got taught his tactic and is now subtly trying to link doomad into learning how windfury does it so that doomad improves his skills of offtopic personal insult
because it has become noticable that doomad has become boring and empty of context in his attempts.

i can show you and your echo chamber of buddies many posts where your mindsets is in favour of
forking people off the network.
telling people if they dont like the centralist LN is the future solution thus deburden bitcoin, the only solution you see is those that want to keep bitcoin populated/have utility.. is telling true bitcoiners to f**k off.

and once again. dont try the flip flop wishy washy card that your a victim of social drama, when its ur cho chamber that meander topics into such by poking the bear.

now go try doing some bitcoin research and spend less time on your social drama

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 18, 2019, 03:42:29 PM
 #36

doomad, its your echo chamber that wants to deburden the bitcoin network of users.

Lie.

Larger blocks are a bigger deterrent to running a full Bitcoin node than smaller blocks.  That's why users on this network have opted for SegWit, which only results in a small increase.  You've said on many occasions that you think we should get rid of the "wishy washy scaling factor" and just have everyone use a 4mb base weight, but you're the only one I've seen calling for that.  If users wanted what you want, they wouldn't be running the code that supports SegWit.  And before you start blithering on about "forcing users into other networks" (like you often do), the most private and secure way to use LN is to run a full node, so even users of "other networks" have an incentive to run a full Bitcoin node.


your favourite quote shows that you and others FAILED totry flopping issues that slow internet users have.
you failed to realise its a known researched thing since pre 2011 and yet you try to insinuate it as a myth brought about by a scammer in 2016.. sorry but you failed. so yea. thats why i say try doing research before hitting reply

I don't care if the real Satoshi Nakamoto came out of hiding and said it, no one is any any position to determine that "slow internet users" don't have a right to run a full node.  Try to weasel out of it all you like, but it's clearly not wrong of me to point out that Craig "scammer" Wright, a discredited lunatic, likes to peddle the view that such users aren't "worthy" to be a part of the network and it's also not wrong for me to point out that you like to say a similar thing using slightly clever wordplay.  I don't care if you're using his rhetoric or he's using yours.  You're both as bad as each other as far as I'm concerned.


pieter wuilles quote was saying about dont change the setting UP, due to scare resources..

home users do not NEED to be super nodes as it doesnt help them or others by pushing their systems too hard.
this does not mean home users are useless to the network. it just means they have the wrong settings and not helping themselves. which is a different topic to the whole symbiotic relationship of code rules and auditing of data..

*hears the sounds of moving goalposts and weasel words*

How many users are changing the setting up, franky1?  How many of these "super nodes" are bottlenecking the network in your opinion?  Surely you've done some research on this to support your claims?   Roll Eyes

I'm not buying it.  You've expressed your disdain for those who run full nodes, particularly Core nodes, on more than one occasion.  You call them mindless sheep every chance you get:  

yes i know you will say "those enforcing the rules" but thats the issue... CORE are in command of such. and users are just distributed 'compatible' sheep of core because the CHOICE of brands(of full nodes that would allow opposition) has been removed

As always, your last resort is to insult the intelligence of everyone securing the BTC network.  Please keep calling them sheep.  Please keep telling us about your genuine and fervent belief that all the users on the BTC chain are too stupid to decide for themselves and are just blindly following what one dev team tell them to do.  Please keep telling us we're just mindless drones and how only your vivid fantasies (that aren't even remotely feasible to implement) will somehow save us from ourselves.  

You can't deny the conflict of interest in the fact that there are thousands of nodes out there enforcing rules you despise and it would benefit your cause greatly if large numbers of them were to stop doing what they're doing.  Obviously you're going to support any hint of the notion that some of them might be a burden to the network.  It's understandable that it would be beneficial, from your perspective, if businesses were left to decide on consensus matters, because many of them were supportive of larger blocks.  Funny coincidence, that.    Roll Eyes

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February 18, 2019, 06:01:19 PM
Last edit: February 18, 2019, 07:01:27 PM by franky1
 #37

doomad, its your echo chamber that wants to deburden the bitcoin network of users.

Lie.

Larger blocks are a bigger deterrent to running a full Bitcoin node than smaller blocks.  That's why users on this network have opted for SegWit, which only results in a small increase.

typical mr flipfop
1, doomad your own words about compatibility and permissionless drivel was you saying there was no opt in.
you even admit the truth for once in another topic by saying your adoration for cores attempts to push people off the network that opposed segwit1x. BEFORE segwit1x got locked in.

so you now pretending high majority diverse people of 2015-2017 opt-in for segwit goes against your initial flipped mindset.

try to learn what narrative you want to push and stick with one narrative.

2. again your mindset is stuck in the flip flop echo chamber of rpeated thoughts of the "gigabyte blocks" myth pushed by your centralised friends.
reality is that PROGRESSIVE SCALING such as the same as what happened 2010-2015 (0.25,0.5,0.75,1mb) is not a bigger deterrant.
reality is that users can just change settings or decide if they actually need to be a full on supernode.
EG instead of connecting to 100+ connections. they can bring it down to 10 and thus make each of those 10 connections 10x better speed experience due to less speed dilution. while also for the user themselves not having to broadcast out 100x data but only 10x data. thus benefiting the user and the receiver.. win win.

And before you start blithering on about "forcing users into other networks" (like you often do), the most private and secure way to use LN is to run a full node, so even users of "other networks" have an incentive to run a full Bitcoin node.

LN nodes will be masternodes monitoring multiple coins so they can coinswap.
guess what. when that becomes popular. YOUR flip flop will change and suddenly you will b saying how home users are not restricted to only 1mb-2mb data.
because the reality is home users are not restricted to 1-2-4mb of data..
the actual issues home users have is that they try to go above their need by trying to connect to hundreds of nodes.

as for the stuff about LN running full nodes. even the devs admit people wont be carrying their desktops and laptops around to go shopping. so LN's design for "starbucks coffee"/groceries/pizza small purchases instantly is for the lite wallet app userbase.

its the devs and your echo chamber that keep on saying bitcoin cant handle X while other networks are the solution, yet the other networks will be dominated by third party factories/watchtowers and then users locked into them using autopiloted phone apps.

atleast try doing some research..

your favourite quote shows that you and others FAILED totry flopping issues that slow internet users have.
you failed to realise its a known researched thing since pre 2011 and yet you try to insinuate it as a myth brought about by a scammer in 2016.. sorry but you failed. so yea. thats why i say try doing research before hitting reply

I don't care if the real Satoshi Nakamoto came out of hiding and said it, no one is any any position to determine that "slow internet users" don't have a right to run a full node.  Try to weasel out of it all you like, but it's clearly not wrong of me to point out that Craig "scammer" Wright, a discredited lunatic, likes to peddle the view that such users aren't "worthy" to be a part of the network and it's also not wrong for me to point out that you like to say a similar thing using slightly clever wordplay.  I don't care if you're using his rhetoric or he's using yours.  You're both as bad as each other as far as I'm concerned.

here you go again i, and MANY others including the real satoshi never said slow internet users dont have the right to run a node. your making that crap up about "no rights"

seriously.. go take your social game word twisting flip flops and use that time to actually learn stuff

what was said and is the general sentiment by those not in the centralist echo chamber. is that user nodes can be full nodes but not all users NEED to b full nodes connected to hundreds of others.
your echo chamber centralists have an agenda of wanting to deburden bitcoin of utility, by saying bitcoin is not fit for everyone.
my and many open minded mindsets are that bitcoin can be used by anyone, but that people can have varying levels of utility.

and if the internet speed is slow theres no NEED to try being a supernode connected to hundreds of others. as it hlps no one by going up so high. its far better to themselves and everyone to set their settings appropriately to be connected. but do so efficiently
(doomad learn the difference between no help by being up so high connection count.. vs your blurred vision thinking that it means no help whatsover to even be on the network...
thats where you got things wrong. you wrongly thought it meant no hlp to the network at all.. the reality is no bnfit to go extreme.. there is a difference.. try learning it)

pieter wuilles quote was saying about dont change the setting UP, due to scare resources..

home users do not NEED to be super nodes as it doesnt help them or others by pushing their systems too hard.
this does not mean home users are useless to the network. it just means they have the wrong settings and not helping themselves. which is a different topic to the whole symbiotic relationship of code rules and auditing of data..

*hears the sounds of moving goalposts and weasel words*

How many users are changing the setting up, franky1?  How many of these "super nodes" are bottlenecking the network in your opinion?  Surely you've done some research on this to support your claims?   Roll Eyes

I'm not buying it.  You've expressed your disdain for those who run full nodes, particularly Core nodes, on more than one occasion.  You call them mindless sheep every chance you get:  
lol. you do realise the quote of pieter. was from a blog, where the original poster was trying to increase his nodecount...
heres a hint. the title of that:
"How does one attain 1,000+ connections like blockchain.info?"

as for my distain for core. thats about distain for centralism and lack of diversity..
again you love centralism, so stop your flip floppy trying to insinuate that im in the same camp as you.
sorry but no. YOUR the centralist. you love core dominance. you love how users follow CORES rules.
im for DIVERSITY where there are DIFERENT BRANDS of full nodes so people have choices

(pre-empt your reply:
doomad will say, 'if you dont like cores rules f**k off to another network
ill say: 'diversity is about different brands on same network where consensus ensures core dont just be dictators/tyrants in control..
but have to be byzantine generals of a level playing field. finding a fair balance of consensus where diversity finds agreement... which is what bitcoins/blockchains original invention/innovation/lightbulb revolutionary new consept was all about)


yes i know you will say "those enforcing the rules" but thats the issue... CORE are in command of such. and users are just distributed 'compatible' sheep of core because the CHOICE of brands(of full nodes that would allow opposition) has been removed

As always, your last resort is to insult the intelligence of everyone securing the BTC network.  Please keep calling them sheep.  Please keep telling us about your genuine and fervent belief that all the users on the BTC chain are too stupid to decide for themselves and are just blindly following what one dev team tell them to do.  Please keep telling us we're just mindless drones and how only your vivid fantasies (that aren't even remotely feasible to implement) will somehow save us from ourselves.  
[/quote]

insults? again lets word count your post history, vs mine for actual insults. see who actually does the real insults.
my comments about users are just following core rules is just that. core have plopped themselves at the core of the network, called themselves the core and reference client, done loads of social drama stuff to keep themselves at the center and thus now there is not really any diversity in the network

even you yourself have spoke loudly about how you would love to REKT core opposers, you admired cores actions about pushing out a few opposing bips.  

You can't deny the conflict of interest in the fact that there are thousands of nodes out there enforcing rules you despise and it would benefit your cause greatly if large numbers of them were to stop doing what they're doing.  Obviously you're going to support any hint of the notion that some of them might be a burden to the network.  It's understandable that it would be beneficial, from your perspective, if businesses were left to decide on consensus matters, because many of them were supportive of larger blocks.  Funny coincidence, that.    Roll Eyes
whether a node is connected to 1000 others or just 2. changes nothing in regards to tru honest consensus.
users finding a setting level that lets then be full nodes without causing their own 'bandwidth issues' cries changes nothing about their consensus level.

but again. you are just a social flip flopper who knows nothing about the bitcoin network even after i nicely asked you months to try researching it.

...........................
anyway
seems doomad cant get the hint about which way he wants to flip or flop. and will never take the time to do some independant thinking.
so lets move on
..........
summary
usernodes:mining nodes:merchants have a symbiotic relationship. they ALL validate.
however they all can choose their level of NEED.
EG if there are 1 billion humans using bitcoin. not all 1 billion NEED/WANT to be full nodes. in no way should they be forced to being full nodes with 100+ connections just so some centralist group can shout "the network cant handle it, move everyone off the network"

instead users can choose to lower their setting/involvement as they please. EG slow internet users dont need 100-1000 connections and many devs even going back as far as 2009 have said it too.

but to have a certain group echoing how bitcoin cant scale because of lame reasons that can easily be fixed by settings changes.. is not the right ploy to then promote alternative networks.

its far better to allow settings to change so that it increases utility. unlike a certain group who want users to get pushed off the network if their opinion doesnt match CORES roadmap of centralised commercial networks

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 19, 2019, 03:58:05 AM
 #38

I find it interesting ,
that the difference between a Block Validation and a Transaction Verification is beyond many people's understanding.
And these very same morons , keep repeating nonsense, claiming others need to research, (when they are the stupid ones)
Well their is nothing to research and you morons are only going to fool the unknowing.

If any of these people even bothered to read Wright's article , it is apparent a non-mining node is irrelevant for network validation.
They want to attribute some magic nonsense to a non-mining node, that does not exist ,
confusing personal verification of transactions and economic blackmail with what a mining node does which is validation of a previous block, when new blocks are created.

it sounds like you're just confusing two different activities. obviously non-mining nodes don't play any active role in block creation. but block creation is only one part of the system. there's an entire incentive system at play where miners are forced to mine honestly. if they don't, their blocks will be ignored by the network (of non-mining nodes) and they'll have wasted money mining worthless blocks. non-mining nodes are a much, much, much bigger part of the network than mining nodes. hence their importance in enforcing the rules.

Notice their confusion keeps pointing to outside issues.
While they ignore the simple facts ,
turn off the mining nodes and the network dies, as no new blocks are created and no old blocks can be validated thru increased confirmations.

only if the drop in hash rate is so severe that difficulty never readjusts. that is the potential downfall of the network.

if difficulty adjusts, it will correct to make mining profitable again. rationally, that means people will mine bitcoin. and then non-mining nodes will keep pressuring miners to mine honestly, just like before.....

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February 20, 2019, 09:20:48 AM
 #39

I believe some of the wrong information in the thread, and in the forum, is very deliberate. New accounts, old accounts, all spreading lies, and half-truths.

Or maybe they truly don't understand how the Bitcoin network works.


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February 22, 2019, 03:22:53 PM
 #40

khaos read some code
Quote from: Khaos77
Little secret for you, You are always trusting someone else,
Run a non-mining node and you are trusting the Mining Nodes that you sync with.
Connect to two different block explores and you are trusting the Mining Nodes, they sync with.
Either way , you're trusting the Mining Nodes.   Smiley
^ wrong

little secret. learn orphan, learn reject, learn consensus, learn honest nodes, learn symbiosis, learn byzantine generals.

if you sent me a block i can reject it if it doesnt fit the rules.. i dont blindly accept it
if i see out of 8 peers that 6 are showing blockheight 600,000 and 2 are showing blockheight 599,500
im gonna grab data from the 6 nodes that are at 600,000.
and then im gonna do my own checks, my own validations and only trust the data i find that is valid
i do not just grab the data and pass it on.

seriously go read some code or get a better node if all you have is a relay/repeater node (much like fibre)

lets word it another way
mining nodes are the U.S Fed Mint.. one day they accidently put pink ink into the printers instead of green. and then send out pink bank notes.

non minting users dont just accept it. they check the note see its not green and reject it.
soon enough mining nodes realise they screwed up and certain serial number range is invalid, they orphan out that serial number pink notes and again start the serial number range using green ink

if they carried on with pink ink. shops would just wait for the green bank notes and reject pink notes. because everyone is under the understanding that only green inked notes are tender.

you are foolish if you think mining nodes can just mint what they like and users accept it.
you really need to do some research.
read code.. not reddit/twitter/medium

...
i think the context of the medium article your misunderstanding is this

in 2009-2011 a "full node" done dozens of jobs
in 2011-2012 a "full node" done slightly less than dozens of jobs and things like CG miner done a couple jobs
in 2013+ a "pool node" done slightly less than dozens of jobs and ASIC done a couple jobs
in 2013+ a "non mining node" done slightly less than dozens of jobs

the misunderstanding is that calling nodes after 2011 a full node.. is less than accurate. because no nodes do the full job list. different things work symbiotically to get the whole list complete but no single node does it all, thus the terminology of "full node" becomes vague

but that DOES NOT mean that non-mining nodes do not validate and decide. and does not mean in a 'honest node' consensus network that non-mining nodes are not part of the symbioses.

without non mining nodes to be the auditors of mining nodes. people end up having to BLINDLY trust mining nodes.
mining nodes without non-mining nodes would then be on a central rampage of doing as they please knowing merchants blindly trust mining nodes.

but the reality is bad blocks do get rejected, orphaned by user nodes and if repeat offending active rules the nodes sending out offending rulebreaking data get banned.

learn about the symbioses of consensus on a honest node network
read some code. not medium/reddit/twitter



We can all learn a lot in that interview here https://badcryptopodcast.com/2019/02/20/craig-wright-242/

And "honest mining" you can only learn from reading the specs of it, the White Paper.


Carpe diem  -  understand the White Paper and mine honest.
Memo: 1AHUYNJKPfY7PjVK1hNQFo5LrdGixuiybw  -  https://metanet.icu/
The simple way is the genius way - in Moore's Law and Satoshi's WP we trust.
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