Propaganda and political operatives in PS sub

[Quickseller]

I would like to start by thanking Flying Helfish for cleaning up the PS sub (and theymos for getting a mod for the PS sub) as political discourse is now allowed, verses previously when there was so much garbage, it was effectively impossible (or very difficult) to have an intelligent discussion.

With the above being said, I have noticed a decent amount of what I believe to be pro-Madura (the illegitimate president of Venezuela) propaganda by a number of posters. These people are effectively posting disinformation.

I have also noticed a number of what I believe to believe left wing political operatives posting. I am unsure if they are the same person/associated with the same entity. They are posting disinformation to push a left wing agenda.

My question is what should be done about this? I obviously believe people should be able to post their opinion, and it is best if the forum doesn’t moderate for truth (and accurate conclusions based on a fact set). 

If nothing else, this thread can serve as a reference to this activity. Perhaps there could be a sticky warning that propaganda and political operatives may be posting in the PS sub and that people should do their own research to form their own conclusions and opinions.

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[Lauda]

..the illegitimate president of Venezuela..

These people are effectively posting disinformation.

Mirrors are fun.

[Quickseller]

..the illegitimate president of Venezuela..

These people are effectively posting disinformation.

Mirrors are fun.

I am not surprised to see you write that...

[Lauda]

..the illegitimate president of Venezuela..

These people are effectively posting disinformation.

Mirrors are fun.

I am not surprised to see you write that...

CIA agents make for very good legitimate presidents.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

So are you suggesting that lies should be moderated?  I'm really not into politics myself, but I know damn well that what one person considers an untruth might be understood quite differently by someone else and often the truth is hard to discern.  I would also think that you wouldn't want a moderator to censor anything in that section, as it would introduce a lot of bias in what posts ultimately are allowed--though I'm pretty sure FH is fair.

I tend to think Theymos probably doesn't want to filter anything in P&S.  If you think someone is spreading false info, you can obviously feel free to correct them.  And it's the internet.  People are going to write bullshit all the time.  We ought to trust that readers engage their critical thinking skills when browsing that section and don't need to be a truth nanny.

[Jet Cash]

Isn't Maduro the democratically elected president of Venezuela. Are you suggesting that a graduate of the George Washington University for regime change agents, that has not been elected, has more right to run the country?

We are all trying to get out of the control of the City of London ( this includes Britain ). It would be better if you could help America regain its independence, rather than trying to steal Venezuelan oil

[suchmoon]

a left wing agenda

Would a right wing agenda be more acceptable to you?

Use "Ignore" and stop concern-trolling. I think Maduro is a shitbag like you, but I also think both Maduro's and your asslickers have the right to exist.

[Quickseller]

So are you suggesting that lies should be moderated? 

No.

it is best if the forum doesn’t moderate for truth

I am saying there should be a warning that propaganda and disinformation posted by professionals may be posted.

Discussion with some of these people is not the same as having a discussion with your neighbor, friend or acquaintance.

[Jet Cash]

Guaido is the jockey riding on the Trojan horse of the US. Should we not be able to state this?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I am saying there should be a warning that propaganda and disinformation posted by professionals may be posted.

Then that would be just as useless as any warning on any forum that tells you people are going to lie or otherwise say crazy things.  That should be understood by anyone who's used the internet for more than a month--and I don't think the politics section here draws its viewership from toddlers.  Just give it a rest. 

[suchmoon]

Guaido is the jockey riding on the Trojan horse of the US. Should we not be able to state this?

You should be able and you are able to state such views in P&S. Just like TECSHARE, Quickseller, bluefirewhatshername, or any other nutjob (not that I consider you a nutjob, JC ) is able to do so as well. I can't see what the problem is, other than Quicksy not liking someone's opinion, again.

[Jet Cash]

The problem with the politics board is that most posters believe the government propaganda, and they are only interested in the petty politicians, and not the global initiative that is under way. It's taken me a while, but I'm starting to get a feel for the Venezuela problem, and it is really quite worrying. I find it difficult to discuss it sensibly with anyone.

[theymos]

It's obvious that the US is heavily propagandizing for Guaidó, and other governments (Russia?) are heavily propagandizing for Maduro. Neither side is good, though you might argue that one or the other is a lesser evil. I think that bitcointalk.org P&S is too small to have direct political operatives, but people are repeating the propaganda they've taken to heart.

Anyway, fight propaganda with truth. The current situation is far from requiring any extra mod action.

[Jet Cash]

It is believed that in 1918 US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson stated that the first casualty of war is truth, so with which "truth" should we arm ourselves?

[Jet Cash]

I tried to introduce sex into my coffee lounge thread, but people seem to prefer politics.

Maybe I should try religion next. I could start a discussion about Wicca, I think we may have a few secret adepts here.

[Flying Hellfish]

Well until someone calls me a Nazi I just don't know how to respond in a thread discussing moderating...

Lying and or pushing an alternative agenda is not against the forum rules afaik, if a specific user/post is breaking forum rules please report them and they will be dealt with.  You are free to start your own echo chamber thread (self mod'd) and you can circle jerk about Gauido or Maduro or the big bad deep state all you want!

If there are operatives here they are wasting there time and money, P&S is just a handful of crazies.

You definitely don't want me to moderate truth or there would be no anti vax or anti climate change threads/posts allowed.

[Quickseller]

a left wing agenda

Would a right wing agenda be more acceptable to you?

I don't want any agenda being pushed by political operatives without warning. Left or right wing. I am currently seeing what I believe to be left wing operatives in PS currently.

Guaido is the jockey riding on the Trojan horse of the US. Should we not be able to state this?

You should be able and you are able to state such views in P&S. Just like TECSHARE, Quickseller, bluefirewhatshername, or any other nutjob (not that I consider you a nutjob, JC ) is able to do so as well. I can't see what the problem is, other than Quicksy not liking someone's opinion, again.

The issue is not disliking someone's opinion, it is that I believe propaganda is being spread in PS. A warning that propaganda is not removed and that political operatives may be posting would not stop anyone from posting their opinion, it may however make said propaganda less effective by encouraging people to independently verify claimed facts, and approach conversations with a critical eye.

It's obvious that the US is heavily propagandizing for Guaidó, and other governments (Russia?) are heavily propagandizing for Maduro.
[...]
I think that bitcointalk.org P&S is too small to have direct political operatives, but people are repeating the propaganda they've taken to heart.

If you believe both sides are pushing propaganda, then perhaps a warning to verify information read may decrease its effectiveness. An operative may operate in many forums under many personalities as writing on a forum is a very efficient way to communicate.

Lying and or pushing an alternative agenda is not against the forum rules afaik,

I am not asking these people to be censored:

it is best if the forum doesn’t moderate for truth

You are free to start your own echo chamber thread (self mod'd) and you can circle jerk about Gauido or Maduro or the big bad deep state all you want!

I have seen some people post in what I believe to be bad faith, and what I believe to be outright lies that have no basis in fact. Perhaps they actually believe what they are posting, but I believe they are pushing disinformation.

You definitely don't want me to moderate truth or there would be no anti vax

The anti-vax movement is able to spread solely because of propaganda and lies. If those who believe these lies knew not to take what is said to them at face value then perhaps they would get their kids vaccinated.



There are warnings about scammers all over the marketplace subs. I don't see why there shouldn't be warnings about other people being up to no good other places they might try to create mischief. 

[Jet Cash]

Vaccinations kill people, and are being used to weaken immune systems, and hook people into reliance on the drugs sold by big pharma.

You don't need to read propaganda to realise this. You just need to look around you, and stop to thin about what you see. Why is it that the most heavily vaccination nation in the world, the US, has the most unhealthy population, and the highest incidence of immune deficiency disorders.

Congrats to Theymos and the moderators for not going down the mass media line, and suppressing anything that doesn't fit the globalist agenda.

You don't have to be Einstein to realise that if the US really was interested in humanitarian aid, they would have diverted the unneeded Trojan Horse feed away fro Venezuela, and sent it to the flood disaster area in Columbia, where it really is needed. Of course if you are really Frankenstein, then you can continue to support the US initiative, and their attempt to turn Venezuela into a cemetery.

[Retina]

I tried to introduce sex into my coffee lounge thread, but people seem to prefer politics.

Maybe I should try religion next. I could start a discussion about Wicca, I think we may have a few secret adepts here.

I think it would be better to say no to religion or politics, I do not want to say anything about these issues, They only cause one another to debate, and nothing else.

I am saying there should be a warning that propaganda and disinformation posted by professionals may be posted.

Are you know that new propaganda is here India and Pakistan issue, you can read this a lot of Fake news this day and enjoy now.

[Flying Hellfish]

I have seen some people post in what I believe to be bad faith, and what I believe to be outright lies that have no basis in fact. Perhaps they actually believe what they are posting, but I believe they are pushing disinformation.

I have seen the exact same thing tbh, the reality is you and I will disagree vehemently on many of those issues and I assure you I will end up moderating something you don't consider bad faith or dis-information.  It's a slippery slope and it's clear to me that theymos doesn't want the forum to go down that road.  

The anti-vax movement is able to spread solely because of propaganda and lies. If those who believe these lies knew not to take what is said to them at face value then perhaps they would get their kids vaccinated.

The anti-vax movement is able to spread because people are too stupid to use their own fucking brains for a fraction of a second.  All the warnings in the world aren't going to fix stupid.

There are warnings about scammers all over the marketplace subs. I don't see why there shouldn't be warnings about other people being up to no good other places they might try to create mischief.  

Healthy skepticism should be a part of any information consumers mindset, I think you are drastically over estimating the impact P&S has on the outside world there are just a handful of users there on a regular basis.  There are more nut jobs than sane folk in P&S and honestly no one is changing anyone's view or the world with posts in P&S.

[Jet Cash]

OK I've tried posting in the political forum, but it looks as if nobody is interested in discussions of the real issues that may contradict the globalist agenda. That saddens me for a crypto enthusiasts forum.

[cryptohunter]

OK I've tried posting in the political forum, but it looks as if nobody is interested in discussions of the real issues that may contradict the globalist agenda. That saddens me for a crypto enthusiasts forum.

Most people choose not to discuss issues that in public contradict the agendas of those they perceive to be in power. Generally they will align with them or just pretend there are no issues.

[r1s2g3]

I tried to introduce sex into my coffee lounge thread, but people seem to prefer politics.

Maybe I should try religion next. I could start a discussion about Wicca, I think we may have a few secret adepts here.

I somewhere read that every man has either of one of these two weakness.  Either he fall on trap for sex or he/she can give life/secrets in name of religion.

[Quickseller]

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

[DireWolfM14]

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

Anything can be called "propaganda," even sentiments that support your point of view.  You wouldn't propose censoring opposing arguments, would you?  Something tells me that you shouldn't hold your breath if that's what you expect.

If you see something that's in violation of the forum rules, report it.  Global mods are still monitoring reports from P&S.

[suchmoon]

Anything can be called "propaganda," even sentiments that support your point of view.  You wouldn't propose censoring opposing arguments, would you?  Something tells me that you shouldn't hold your breath if that's what you expect.

I don't think he expects that. But he's sockpuppeting hard with at least two accounts to shill his "point of view", which is about as disgusting as any propaganda.

[hilariousandco]

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One man's propaganda is another man's truth. Many people would say Israel is a terror state and Palestine is practically an open air concentration camp. Who is right and who is wrong? Who gets to decide what is propaganda or not? The mods? Misinformation and propaganda is rife from both sides and both have committed war crimes. Neither can be trusted and both are as bad as each other but I'd say usually the bigger terrorist is the one with the bigger weapon. Should we count both Hamas and Israel as terrorist organisations? What about both the US and UK governments which also commit war crimes and atrocities far bigger than both Hamas and Israel, but we allow both pro and anti arguments regarding them. I don't see anything wrong with the image posted above regardless of whether you agree with it or not but the other thread which is arguably calling for genocide could certainly be removed. Did anyone report it because I can't see any reports on it? It's probably a troll account either way.

[TwitchySeal]

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

It would be nice if we could know for sure who was intentionally spreading misinformation and stop them.  But we can't.  It spreads because people believe it.  And if someone believes it, they aren't intentionally spreading misinformation.  And people should be able to post what they believe.

Even posts like this one, that I'm almost certain the user is fully aware that they are spreading misinformation about a terrorist attack only to suit their own personal political stance, I don't think it should be removed.

[DireWolfM14]

I don't think he expects that.

I don't think he does either, I was being facetious.  I'm sure QS is smarter than that, hell PN7 is probably smarter than that, lol. 

But I wasn't asking just to be a smart-ass; this is Meta.  If he is not asking for censorship, then what's the point of bringing up the issue in this section?  The only other reason I can see for it is to spread his political debates into a board were they're off topic.

[Quickseller]

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

Anything can be called "propaganda," even sentiments that support your point of view.  You wouldn't propose censoring opposing arguments, would you?  Something tells me that you shouldn't hold your breath if that's what you expect.

If you see something that's in violation of the forum rules, report it.  Global mods are still monitoring reports from P&S.

The definition of propaganda is:

information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

I am not necessarily advocating that posts be censored, but am rather highlighting a problem. I don't think the posts in question violate any current rules.

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One man's propaganda is another man's truth. Many people would say Israel is a terror state and Palestine is practically an open air concentration camp. Who is right and who is wrong? Who gets to decide what is propaganda or not? The mods? Misinformation and propaganda is rife from both sides and both have committed war crimes. Neither can be trusted and both are as bad as each other but I'd say usually the bigger terrorist is the one with the bigger weapon. Should we count both Hamas and Israel as terrorist organisations? What about both the US and UK governments which also commit war crimes and atrocities far bigger than both Hamas and Israel, but we allow both pro and anti arguments regarding them. I don't see anything wrong with the image posted above regardless of whether you agree with it or not but the other thread which is arguably calling for genocide could certainly be removed. Did anyone report it because I can't see any reports on it? It's probably a troll account either way.

If the argument that Palestine is a "concentration camp" that would be the fault of Hamas, not Israel. Israel is giving away free electricity and water to Palestine. Hamas is occupying the territory.

There are authoritative sources that say Hamas is a terrorist organization (as cited in the post you quoted). The mods do not need to make independent judgements, but can rely on a set of reliable and authoritative sources. If, over time a particular source proves itself to be unreliable, it can no longer be relied upon.

I think it would probably not be best to remove the propaganda posts in question, but would probably be good to perhaps have warnings applied to posts linking readers to authoritative sources of information about the subject, so the readers can make their own unbiased judgments.

It appears that terrorist propiganda is being posted in various P&S threads. Hamas is not only designated as a terrorist organization, but is also subject to OFAC sanctions.

The propaganda is not limited to one thread. There is another thread advocating for the mass murder of Jews whose replies contain pro-terrorism propaganda.

It would be nice if we could know for sure who was intentionally spreading misinformation and stop them.  But we can't.  It spreads because people believe it.  And if someone believes it, they aren't intentionally spreading misinformation.  And people should be able to post what they believe.

The best cure to misinformation is more speech. However some malicious actors are able to produce a lot of speech, either by generating content that many are sympathetic to, or via automated means. If authoritative, neutral sources of information are linked to certain posts/threads, the effectiveness of a lot of misleading speech would be reduced.  

[suchmoon]

I think it would probably not be best to remove the propaganda posts in question, but would probably be good to perhaps have warnings applied to posts linking readers to authoritative sources of information about the subject, so the readers can make their own unbiased judgments.

Wasn't that what twitface did to one prominent politician and some users here were screaming "sensor ships!!!!!!!!!!!"?

It's amazing how you can unironically post shit like that.

[DireWolfM14]

I think it would probably not be best to remove the propaganda posts in question, but would probably be good to perhaps have warnings applied to posts linking readers to authoritative sources of information about the subject, so the readers can make their own unbiased judgments.

Freedom, or no freedom?  There's no grey area here.  Should people be able to say what they want on this forum, or should all posts be reviewed against QS's definition of propaganda?  Who gets to review the "Authoritative Sources" to determine whether they are valid, or if they are just spreading more propaganda?  Who gets to review the reviewers for bias?

My suggestion is that you engage in calm, rational discussions, provide references that support you position, recognize that your opinions are just as biased as your opponents, and allow others the same freedom.  You won't convince everyone.  You may not convince anyone.  Just don't take it personally.

[Quickseller]

I think it would probably not be best to remove the propaganda posts in question, but would probably be good to perhaps have warnings applied to posts linking readers to authoritative sources of information about the subject, so the readers can make their own unbiased judgments.

Freedom, or no freedom?  There's no grey area here.  Should people be able to say what they want on this forum, or should all posts be reviewed against QS's definition of propaganda?  Who gets to review the "Authoritative Sources" to determine whether they are valid, or if they are just spreading more propaganda?  Who gets to review the reviewers for bias?

My suggestion is that you engage in calm, rational discussions, provide references that support you position, recognize that your opinions are just as biased as your opponents, and allow others the same freedom.  You won't convince everyone.  You may not convince anyone.  Just don't take it personally.

Of course, I favor freedom.

With the kind of propaganda I am referring to, particularly the kind being published by Ljunior, I would say the publisher (I am intentionally not using the word 'person' as I have my doubts he is writing in his personal capacity, or even if it is a single person behind the account) does not necessarily believe what is being published, and he is taking steps to make it difficult to counter his statements. For example, he is making his posts full of images, so a casual reader will not be as likely to read the post immidiately after his post. This makes it difficult to counter what he is saying.

The authoritative sources should be chosen by someone who is responsible for the reputation of the forum. If authoritative sources are chosen that are not reliable, or are too biased, the forum's reputation will suffer. I don't think the forum should say that anyone is right or wrong, or that the linked authoritative sources are right or wrong, but I do think some of these posts should contain links to additional information so readers can decide for themselves.

There is a distinction between someone like Ljunior, and someone like jrrsparkles, who very well may believe what he is posting, and IMO is repeating what someone in his family, or friend group taught him. jrrsparkles is not doing anything to impede discussion, while Ljunior is via his very long posts.

We don't allow people to post about bcash in the bitcoin subs, claiming that bcash is bitcoin. We also don't allow inauthentic behavior that might artificially increase their threads or posts visibility.

[DireWolfM14]

There is a distinction between someone like whogivesafuck, and someone like someothershcmuck

I knew it.  All you're trying to do is extend your political debate into Meta.  It's not going to work, but I will say that if you're afraid of memes then your argument is shit.

We don't allow people to post about bcash in the bitcoin subs, claiming that bcash is bitcoin. We also don't allow inauthentic behavior that might artificially increase their threads or posts visibility.

Those are specific rule violations that exist because this is a Bitcoin forum.  If you want to discuss Israeli politics with those kinds of restrictions find yourself an Israel forum.

[Quickseller]

There is a distinction between someone like whogivesafuck, and someone like someothershcmuck

I knew it.  All you're trying to do is extend your political debate into Meta.  It's not going to work, but I will say that if you're afraid of memes then your argument is shit.

I am not trying to extend my political debate. One person that I cited likely actually believes what he is posting and one is likely sponsored, directly or indirectly by terrorists, both are posting misinformation. Each can potentially be handed differently.

We don't allow people to post about bcash in the bitcoin subs, claiming that bcash is bitcoin. We also don't allow inauthentic behavior that might artificially increase their threads or posts visibility.

Those are specific rule violations that exist because this is a Bitcoin forum.  If you want to discuss Israeli politics with those kinds of restrictions find yourself an Israel forum.

It is currently against the rules to post about bcash in the bitcoin forums. In 2014, this would not be against the rules because no one had thought to create such a rule. The purpose of this thread/bump is to generate debate that will hopefully lead to a new rule being created against posting terrorist propaganda.