Bitcoin ponzi accusations

[bananas]

Many journalists have been lately saying that, but it seems they never cared to check fiat currencies.

The concept is absolutely the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_appreciation_and_depreciation

Anyone who read newspaper everyday, is probably sick of reading headlines like "<your local currency here> appreciated with the entry of $? usd dollars in the country. Investors are optmistic."(purchase of local currency) or the other way around "<your local currency here> devalued with the escape of $? usd dollars from the country. Investors in panick. " ( selling of local currency )

It is the same for gold etc. Before someone says that, gold has an actual use, but bitcoins too.

[Toby!]

Many journalists have been lately saying that, but it seems they never cared to check fiat currencies.

The concept is absolutely the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_appreciation_and_depreciation

Anyone who read newspaper everyday, is probably sick of reading headlines like "<your local currency here> appreciated with the entry of $? usd dollars in the country. Investors are optmistic."(purchase of local currency) or the other way around "<your local currency here> devalued with the escape of $? usd dollars from the country. Investors in panick. " ( selling of local currency )

It is the same for gold etc. Before someone says that, gold has an actual use, but bitcoins too.

I think you're confused about what a ponzi scheme is.

[bananas]

Many journalists have been lately saying that, but it seems they never cared to check fiat currencies.

The concept is absolutely the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_appreciation_and_depreciation

Anyone who read newspaper everyday, is probably sick of reading headlines like "<your local currency here> appreciated with the entry of $? usd dollars in the country. Investors are optmistic."(purchase of local currency) or the other way around "<your local currency here> devalued with the escape of $? usd dollars from the country. Investors in panick. " ( selling of local currency )

It is the same for gold etc. Before someone says that, gold has an actual use, but bitcoins too.

I think you're confused about what a ponzi scheme is.

I believe i am not, but i'm not entering the merit of what a ponzi is. If you been reading the news, jounalists have been accusing bitcoin of being a ponzi where the valuation is sustained only by the entry of new money. Supposing that it is true, fact is that fiat the same happens with fiat currencies.

[S4VV4S]

Maybe you should let them know that there is no bigger ponzi SCAM than fiat currency: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=510710.0

[greenlion]

All allegations of Ponzi I'm seeing center around one very clear thread. They confuse "price" with "value" and are convinced that Bitcoin has no inherent value outside of new fiat money coming in. Thus the claim goes that newer adopters become the bag-holders for earlier-adopters.

Once you point out that a Ponzi scheme is a very specific thing where investors are defrauded by a single entity paying older investors with money from mew investors, then the conversation suddenly becomes "whatever, then it's a Pyramid".

I guess a form of money where your balance is secured by the largest single-task supercomputing cluster ever assembled in history, that lets you pay anybody in the world with no intermediary institution for almost zero fee has no inherent value!

[KJO]

Many journalists have been lately saying that, but it seems they never cared to check fiat currencies.

The concept is absolutely the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_appreciation_and_depreciation

Anyone who read newspaper everyday, is probably sick of reading headlines like "<your local currency here> appreciated with the entry of $? usd dollars in the country. Investors are optmistic."(purchase of local currency) or the other way around "<your local currency here> devalued with the escape of $? usd dollars from the country. Investors in panick. " ( selling of local currency )

It is the same for gold etc. Before someone says that, gold has an actual use, but bitcoins too.

I think you're confused about what a ponzi scheme is.

No, I think YOU are confused about what a ponzi scheme is.

Fiat backed by nothing printed at will with no fixed supply by the issuer and buyer of last resort.

They have taken the seigniorage away and replaced it with a GAAP debt-slavery system based on credit that does not exist and was originally created not by the lendor but by the lendee!

[IrishFutbol]

1. Your friends are confusing bubble with ponzi scheme.

2. It's not the same as fiat currency.  No one buys dollars to stuff under their bed with the hope of striking it rich.  And the big difference between fiat and bitcoin is the regulations.  Fiat currencies are designed to operate at stated inflation rates (UK) or generally targeted inflation rates (US).  They're built to have a set value that doesn't fluctuate wildly.  Bitcoin doesn't have this.  As there's no ability to adjust the supply of the currency, it could skyrocket or plummet and there's little investors could do.

[bananas]

2. It's not the same as fiat currency.  No one buys dollars to stuff under their bed with the hope of striking it rich.  And the big difference between fiat and bitcoin is the regulations.  Fiat currencies are designed to operate at stated inflation rates (UK) or generally targeted inflation rates (US).  They're built to have a set value that doesn't fluctuate wildly.  Bitcoin doesn't have this.  As there's no ability to adjust the supply of the currency, it could skyrocket or plummet and there's little investors could do.

The reasons do not matter, but trust me, many people do trade fiat currencies to get rich.

[bbeagle]

The reasons do not matter, but trust me, many people do trade fiat currencies to get rich.

Not anywhere near the same.

1. Buy $1000 worth of any fiat currency of your choice.
2. Put it under your bed.
3. Wait 10 years.
4. Congratulations! You're a millionaire!

Fiat currency does not do this, but this is EXACTLY what 95% of the bitcoin 'investors' are hoping for.

[bananas]

The reasons do not matter, but trust me, many people do trade fiat currencies to get rich.

Not anywhere near the same.

1. Buy $1000 worth of any fiat currency of your choice.
2. Put it under your bed.
3. Wait 10 years.
4. Congratulations! You're a millionaire!

Fiat currency does not do this, but this is EXACTLY what 95% of the bitcoin 'investors' are hoping for.

I understand your point but Bitcoin was never released or promoted as an investment, people who decided to invest are doing this on their own and taking a very high risk. ANY investment fits what those journalists are describing as a ponzi. I read one journalist who called it "voluntary ponzi", he somewhat understand what i just said but ignored that all other investments are the same.

[superresistant]

The world economy is a damn Ponzi scheme.

It rely on lies : infinite growing economy, infinite resources, blind trust in the church "Economy".

It is build to fail : exponentially growing dept, exponentially growing FIAT supply, exponentially growing inequalities, environmental destruction.

The ones who come early get rich, the others die miserably. The ones in between work in McDonald.

[S4VV4S]

The world economy is a damn Ponzi scheme.

It rely on lies : infinite growing economy, infinite resources, blind trust in the church "Economy".

It is build to fail : exponentially growing dept, exponentially growing FIAT supply, exponentially growing inequalities, environmental destruction.

The ones who come early get rich, the others die miserably. The ones in between work in McDonald.

Then I suppose it is safe to say that we are from the early adopters?

[odolvlobo]

Anyone that thinks that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme either doesn't understand what a Ponzi scheme is or they don't understand how Bitcoin works ... or they are redefining "Ponzi scheme" for their own purposes.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator.

Bitcoin has no operator, "it" does not pay returns, and "it" does not claim to earn a profit. It cannot be a Ponzi scheme. It is that simple.

Furthermore, the reasons that are generally given to support the claim also apply to gold, so gold must also be claimed to be a Ponzi scheme.

[IrishFutbol]

2. It's not the same as fiat currency.  No one buys dollars to stuff under their bed with the hope of striking it rich.  And the big difference between fiat and bitcoin is the regulations.  Fiat currencies are designed to operate at stated inflation rates (UK) or generally targeted inflation rates (US).  They're built to have a set value that doesn't fluctuate wildly.  Bitcoin doesn't have this.  As there's no ability to adjust the supply of the currency, it could skyrocket or plummet and there's little investors could do.

The reasons do not matter, but trust me, many people do trade fiat currencies to get rich.

First, most people who do this lose money very quickly.  Second, the people who do this are normally in and out of the market very quickly.  Anyone who plans to hold a foreign currency for a long period of time will invest in foreign equities and bonds, not just in the currency.  No one holds onto Euros, Dollars, etc. to get rich.

[Lauda]

The world economy is a damn Ponzi scheme.

It rely on lies : infinite growing economy, infinite resources, blind trust in the church "Economy".

It is build to fail : exponentially growing dept, exponentially growing FIAT supply, exponentially growing inequalities, environmental destruction.

The ones who come early get rich, the others die miserably. The ones in between work in McDonald.

Then I suppose it is safe to say that we are from the early adopters?

Yes, we are early bitcoin adopters.

[KJO]

2. It's not the same as fiat currency.  No one buys dollars to stuff under their bed with the hope of striking it rich.  And the big difference between fiat and bitcoin is the regulations.  Fiat currencies are designed to operate at stated inflation rates (UK) or generally targeted inflation rates (US).  They're built to have a set value that doesn't fluctuate wildly.  Bitcoin doesn't have this.  As there's no ability to adjust the supply of the currency, it could skyrocket or plummet and there's little investors could do.

The reasons do not matter, but trust me, many people do trade fiat currencies to get rich.

First, most people who do this lose money very quickly.  Second, the people who do this are normally in and out of the market very quickly.  Anyone who plans to hold a foreign currency for a long period of time will invest in foreign equities and bonds, not just in the currency.  No one holds onto Euros, Dollars, etc. to get rich.

I guess you have no idea what seigniorage is. Sheesh good grief.

[darkmule]

All allegations of Ponzi I'm seeing center around one very clear thread. They confuse "price" with "value" and are convinced that Bitcoin has no inherent value outside of new fiat money coming in. Thus the claim goes that newer adopters become the bag-holders for earlier-adopters.

Once you point out that a Ponzi scheme is a very specific thing where investors are defrauded by a single entity paying older investors with money from mew investors, then the conversation suddenly becomes "whatever, then it's a Pyramid".

To a lot of people, "Ponzi scheme" is just a general term for anything economic that they don't like.  The good thing about this kind of terminology is you can easily identify idiots whose opinions can be safely ignored.

[Lauda]

First, most people who do this lose money very quickly.  Second, the people who do this are normally in and out of the market very quickly.  Anyone who plans to hold a foreign currency for a long period of time will invest in foreign equities and bonds, not just in the currency.  No one holds onto Euros, Dollars, etc. to get rich.

I guess you have no idea what seigniorage is. Sheesh good grief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage
There we go.

[Bit_Happy]

All allegations of Ponzi I'm seeing center around one very clear thread. They confuse "price" with "value" and are convinced that Bitcoin has no inherent value outside of new fiat money coming in. Thus the claim goes that newer adopters become the bag-holders for earlier-adopters.

Once you point out that a Ponzi scheme is a very specific thing where investors are defrauded by a single entity paying older investors with money from mew investors, then the conversation suddenly becomes "whatever, then it's a Pyramid".

I guess a form of money where your balance is secured by the largest single-task supercomputing cluster ever assembled in history, that lets you pay anybody in the world with no intermediary institution for almost zero fee has no inherent value!

The secure network gives BTC value, and...
The BTC story does have some amazing similarities to a Ponzi.   

[tkbx]

The only similarity between Bitcoin and a ponzi scheme is that in a ponzi scheme, the earlier you get in on it, the more money you leave with. In Bitcoin, even the late adopters will make money on it, and the end goal is that you never "cash out" like you would in a ponzi scheme.