VISA vs Lightning Network

[Canoppo99]

Transaction using VISA is very conventional and out dated, while virtual money such as bitcoin provide more advantages so buyer and seller don't need to spend much time and money for their transactions. The improvement in echnology such as this lightning networks should bring advantages to people and make them leave old way of transferring money.

[davis196]

Actually, i've been testing and accepting LN payments on my demo site for quite a while already...
I personally find eclair mobile pretty user friendly. Offcourse, there's still a learning curve that's far bigger if you compare it with visa. Afterall, everybody has seen their grandparents, parents,... using VISA since they were born, so the visa-learning curve started allmost at birth. This offcourse isn't the case with BTC/LN.

Basically, you have to incentivise your clients to:

• 1) Install a decent desktop wallet on their pc
• 2) fund their desktop wallet with a couple hundred bucks worth of BTC
• 3) install a LN client on their mobile phone, create a new address, fund the address with "spending money"
• 4) open a channel between the client and the store's node, fund it

After these 4 steps, a store can generate a lightning invoice (QR) and let the customer scan and pay straight away... Works flawlessly, but still, i don't see my mother performing these steps...
Also, the fact that you'd have to close the current channel if you wish to open a new one (when you have insufficient funds in your current channel for planned expenses) is a drawback.

You can actually skip step 1, and switch step 2 and 3 (create a LN wallet right away, create a deposit addy and fund it straight from the exchange), but i would discourage anybody to keep a lot of funds on a mobile wallet.

The biggest "drawbacks" would probably be to get somebody to visit an exchange or some other seller to exchange FIAT to BTC...

Getting a VISA card a lot easier.You just have to go to a bank,open a bank account and sign a contract.
Then you have to deposit money to that bank account and wait for your debit card.
I agree that the biggest drawback in buying btc,so only the hardcore crypto fanatics would use LN for retail payments.99% of the women don't understand how crypto/blockchain/LN works.That's the major issue.

[kucritt]

VISA is the most popular payment gateway in the world, we can use VISA over the country and i think it will obsolete in the near time, and i think it will obsolete when there are the new payment gateway that have the fastest speed, the low fee, and ofcourse the safest gateway

[Carlton Banks]

I'm pretty satisfied with eclair mobile, you just have to realise it's a mobile wallet intended to PAY for services, it's not intended to receive payments

The Eclair developers will apparently release a new version later this year that lets you receive lightning payments

[franky1]

• 4) open a channel between the client and the store's node, fund it

After these 4 steps, a store can generate a lightning invoice (QR) and let the customer scan and pay straight away... Works flawlessly, but still, i don't see my mother performing these steps...

emphasis:
works flawlessly when already having a channel between client and store node is funded and both online.

however many stores/merchants wont want to have a permanent open direct always online connections with millions of users
(DDos risk, hacking, other funding issues on store/merchants side(EG paying all close channel fee's for millions of users))

so then routing/hubs/hops becomes a concept. which is less than flawless.
recently fold done a 'pizza for LN' and showed only a 10% success rate. (1500 transactions, only 150 successes)[/list]

[Lizzylove1]

More and more people eyes are beginning to be open to the fraudulent cash been made by our faulty financial system, and they are now set to dumping it. Lightening network is the answer to bitcoin scalability. This will attract mass adoption, I understand some merchants are already using it.

[BurgerCash]

Since the big news of Pompliano's suggestion for Kroger to implement Lighting Network in its stores after announcing that it's Smith's Food & Drug stores won't be accepting VISA cards due to the high fees, it's brought up a lot of discussions of what is next. So many other big companies have stopped accepting Visa and therefore it just makes sense, for lightning network to be the future. What do you guys think, will the process actually go through?

Even Samson Mow now says that Bitcoin should not be used for payments, and there's questionable utility surrounding LN. Even if it works well, it's YEARS away from this stage. I cannot recommend any merchant to adopt Bitcoin right now, at least not in good faith.

[franky1]

Even Samson Mow now says that Bitcoin should not be used for payments, and there's questionable utility surrounding LN. Even if it works well, it's YEARS away from this stage. I cannot recommend any merchant to adopt Bitcoin right now, at least not in good faith.

samson mow also said segwit is great. he was even selling hats to promote his controversial method to force segwit into activation..
but once activated, samson mows then company BTCC were not using segwit addresses for their coin rewards. which just goes to show they didnt really trust segwit tx formats for their own income

[TheCoinGrabber]

--snip--
So far I have no use for a lightning wallet yet but what would you suggest? The top results on Google Play is the one by kumaigorodski and Eclair Mobile.

I have c-lightning running on my server and eclair mobile on my phone. I'm pretty satisfied with eclair mobile, you just have to realise it's a mobile wallet intended to PAY for services, it's not intended to receive payments (in the case you want to receive payments, c-lightning or lnd might be needed)

Thanks for clarifying that. I was kinda hoping I can accept payments on mobile. I asked coz we have a small mom-and-pop store and thinking of adding a BTC payment option if we get more Bitcoin users in our community.

[mocacinno]

--snip--
Thanks for clarifying that. I was kinda hoping I can accept payments on mobile. I asked coz we have a small mom-and-pop store and thinking of adding a BTC payment option if we get more Bitcoin users in our community.

Seems like Carlton Banks already answered this topic

--snip--
The Eclair developers will apparently release a new version later this year that lets you receive lightning payments

As for now, i run a bitcoin core node, c-lightning on top of core and lightning-charge on top of c-lightning... It's actually pretty easy to setup, and it runs without hiccups for weeks on end... So, if you're serious about accepting lightning payments, and you want a "from-scratch" sollution, i'd probably go for something like this:

- Add a second, empty, 512 Gb SSD disk to a fast computer with sufficient RAM and BW, running linux. mount the device under ~/.bitcoin
- Install bitcoin core, run it, let it sync
- turn off the pc, remove the SSD, setup an rPi 3b+, plug in the SSD, mount it under ~/.bitcoin (create a seperate user)
- install bitcoin core on the rPi, run it, make sure it runs smoothly before the next step... It should sync pretty fast, since the bulk of the work was already done on a fast pc
- follow the installation steps of c-lightning: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning
- follow the installation steps of lightning-charge https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning-charge
- at this point you can setup a LAMP stack on your rPi and write a very simple php script calling lightning-charge's rest api, create qr codes, display them, check for payed invoices,...

All in all, a rather extensive walktrough, but if you're reasonably technical, it's far from impossible
Total cost (not including the fast pc... I assume most people have access to a fast desktop machine somewhere, either at home or with friends or family):
1 512 Gb SSD => $90
1 rPi 3b+ + case => $80
S&H => $20

So for less than $200, you should be up and running accepting LN payments in your store..

If you don't mind using a payment processor, bitpay already accepts LN payments I've used them for my latest bitgild purchase and it went flawless...

[Beerwizzard]

LN won't replace visa because visa customers are not using cryptocurrencies and vice versa.

They could use both, and in some cases, ditch one for another. I don't think LN's goal is to replace Visa per se, but to be a better, or at least a workable alternative. That drives adoption.

If what you are saying is absolutely true, then Bitcoin is basically locked to enthusiasts and all we're doing is playing in a sandbox.

If people are not familiar with cryptocurrencies they won't use it. Why should they buy Bitcoin for fiat currency and then buy whatever they need for it when they can just buy what they need for fiat without messing up with anything else?
LN supposed to be a great thing for offline payments but the only existence of such technology won't make anyone to use cryptocurrencies.

[franky1]

So for less than $200, you should be up and running accepting LN payments in your store..

wait... so for 4 years people been screaming that bitcoin is broke and cant scale because its too complicated and expensive to run 1 program on a pc

but now there is a solution involving running 3 programs.. but funnily one of which is the one that was supposedly too big to run.
and it just costs $200

OMG shocking.

[franky1]

He clearly emphasizes $200 is the cost to create payment processor (which accept Bitcoin payment through on-chain/LN) which is cheap compared with payment processor/gateway devices provided by bank which is more expensive (especially on long run).
Even though $200 is still expensive for people who live on 3rd/developing country.

Also, i think people screaming bitcoin full nodes is expensive to run if block size/weight limit is significantly increased.

he also clearly emphasised the cost of a a full node..

the whole size weight significant increase is the bull crap myth.
no one is saying gigabytes by midnight.

the main proposals was 2mb which would have been at most 104gb a year meaning 3 years of using the raspbi before needing to upgrade the hard drive,

$200 for 3 years(200gb for 10 years historic, and 300gb for ATLEAST 3 years future) is cheaper than many computers and game console systems which people upgrade in the same time frame. which means the excuse of price is like saying
"online gaming cant work"
"dont do online gaming" because internet speeds and console costs


but with that said the point being is LN requires MORE than bitcoin
but LN offers LESS security
but LN offers LESS payment success guarantee
but LN offers LESS convenience

too many people that advocate for LN dont use it.
those that do, get too optimistic and only explain the most perfect usecase and call it 'flawless' but too afraid to admit the flaws. which when funds ar involved. people actually want to know the flaws/risks too

do you know the real funny part though.
the devs that suggsted not to scale bitcoin ntwork but concentrate on a separate network for multicoins. are the guys happy with fee's being 'higher than 3rd/developing countries can afford'.

meaning even if 3rd/developing countries decided to go for lite wallets. as full nodes are not essential, its still expensive to use bitcoin.

but lets also think about LN
imagine it this way.
$1 fee, channel lock length 2 weeks = $2 a fortnight
=$52 a year JUST TO open/close a channel periodically
=$156 for 3 years

and thats just 1 channel. average experience is 5 channels to have reliable service. so yea expect more costs just to set up reliable channel routes even via just a phone app

and if wondering why i say $1 onchain fee.. well those loving LN and think that onchain fee's will replace rewards and blockchain needs to stay where it is to cause a fee war to pay pools. doing the math of 12.5*$3500+= >$40k
that $40k is for ~2000 TX meaning each tx in the future may need to be $20.. so i was bing very "conservative" by just using $1 with 1 channel as oppose to $20x5 channel
but even with low "conservative" numbers below the expectactions of the group that love the "conservative" buzzword, still adds up to a significant amount that doesnt help 3rd/developing countries.

oh and by the way. a 1TB hard is cheaper then you think

[pushups44]

I think Kroger's rejection of Visa signals that these payment processors have abused their position similar to monopolies. This bodes well for the Lightning Network and competing technologies. The key for the Lightning Network will be ease of use and stability. Additionally, fiat ramps will be needed for quick conversion for customers and merchants. I am expecting this will be a big year for it to properly scale.

[shesheboy]

Transaction using VISA is very conventional and out dated

sure its conventional and that what makes visa more acceptable than crypto or lightning network  . visa isnt also out dated if its outdated then why we still see it everywhere ?

while virtual money such as bitcoin provide more advantages so buyer and seller don't need to spend much time and money for their transactions.

when using bitcoin people spend fees and they also wait for the transaction to be mined  while using a visa/credit card are instant  . no fees , no waiting time .

The improvement in technology such as this lightning networks should bring advantages to people and make them leave old way of transferring money.

thats impossible  . some will stick on the old way of paying because crypto is too complex for them  . though this lightning network is a good implementation to speed up the crypto processing time  .

[maldini]

I think from both of them is a very good network, only having problems in terms of effectiveness and efficiency, I'm sure every store has its own considerations.

[DooMAD]

So for less than $200, you should be up and running accepting LN payments in your store..

wait... so for 4 years people been screaming that bitcoin is broke and cant scale because its too complicated and expensive to run 1 program on a pc

but now there is a solution involving running 3 programs.. but funnily one of which is the one that was supposedly too big to run.
and it just costs $200

OMG shocking.

He clearly emphasizes $200 is the cost to create payment processor (which accept Bitcoin payment through on-chain/LN) which is cheap compared with payment processor/gateway devices provided by bank which is more expensive (especially on long run).

Indeed.  With the way Visa are raising their fees, that $200 is going to start looking quite tempting to a large number of merchants.  It puts them in the drivers seat and could save them a small fortune over the years if their customers start paying with LN instead of a card.  I believe the current Visa fee is $0.10 plus 1.51% of the cost of the transaction.  I can't seem to find any reference on what it's increasing to in April yet. 

[franky1]

BITCOIN
means you can just get a keypair and display it on paper.

you dont NEED a full node.(advantageous but not essential) but even if you did, its only a few hundred dollars.
the issue is devs are pushing for BITCOIN to be FEE priced more than visa for transaction fee's to attempt to get people to use another network that is not community audited, doesnt solve byzantine generals. has no guarentee of settlement, requires people to have co-signers and require co signers to be online, funded and linked to possible destinations for it to work
basically LN is not the open borderless sovereign system that made bitcoin popular a decade ago

LN is not even a feature unique and solely functional to give bitcoin an advantage.

but hey the promotional material is supposedly all for a current convenience of low fee. which as we all have seen wont stay low
think about all the 'min dust relay' stuff implemented in bitcoin so that nodes dont get hit by loads of transactions.

the foolishness is to raise the BITCOIN FEE by saying there is a option of LN for those who dont like the fee war instigated by the devs. but then LN is doing/pretending to do things some users dont want thus causing a loss in the whole ethos of what originally made bitcoin popular.

remember if you only have $60 in a channel your not gonna want 60 users routing through you to buy a $1 product or 20 people buying a $3 coffee routing through you as you will get your funds raided before you can spend it yourself.

even the LN devs have been saying they have noticed LN nodes already upping their fee's to prevent this stuff.
even companies offering services/goods via LN are admitting LN payments are having a 10% success rate

but hey those thinking visa $0.10 bad or paypal $0.20 bad.. but bitcoin $1 fee good. are obviously either sniffing glue or dont want people using true bitcoin

[okala]

The success of the lightening network to be use in stores all depends on how user friendly it becomes at the end and with a flexible and low fees in carrying out transaction by stores then I think digital currency will be the future of all online and cashless transactions in stores and market palaces.

[DooMAD]

but hey those thinking visa $0.10 bad or paypal $0.20 bad.. but bitcoin $1 fee good. are obviously either sniffing glue or dont want people using true bitcoin

Learn to read, moron.  That's $0.10 plus 1.51% of the transaction cost.

I work in a large call centre.  On an average day at work, eight hour shift, I can easily clear between £4000 and £6000 worth of transactions.  Sometimes more.  Not all of them are card payments, some use direct debits, so let's say £3000 to £5000 on cards.  In case you're as much of an idiot as I think you are, let's show you what 1.51% actually means in practice.  That works out between £45 and £75 in fees.  Per day.  And that's just the transactions I process, not counting the other 200+ people that work there.  

Yeah, companies are just going to be weeping in sorrow at having to pay a few hundred to become their own payment processor.  

Fucking imbecile.