Comparison of Offchain Solutions for Crypto Coins

[davis196]

OP,you provided a comparison but there's no conclusion.
Which one is the best method for offchain transactions?Is there a "best offchain transaction solution"?
All the 3 solutions are centralized(I don't think that there's a decentralized offchain solution in existence),which makes me think that exit scams are possible...

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[Khaos77]

OP,you provided a comparison but there's no conclusion.
Which one is the best method for offchain transactions?Is there a "best offchain transaction solution"?
All the 3 solutions are centralized(I don't think that there's a decentralized offchain solution in existence),which makes me think that exit scams are possible...

As with most things, the final conclusion is made by the person reading the article.

And it may surprise many to hear but not everyone will come to the same conclusion , because not everyone wants the same thing.

Examples:

Someone wanting to truly lower the onchain transactions as much as possible ,
would choose a gift card is the superior solution.

Someone preferring to exchange crypto coins, offchain and immediately withdraw with no worries of time locks,
would choose an exchange as the superior solution.

Someone running a LN hub for profit or pure development,
would choose LN as the superior solution.

The final choice of each individual depends on their personal motivations,
and since everyone has different motivations, the best solution will vary per individual.  

Oddly enough , if all offchain solutions do not appeal to you in any way,
you have made a personal conclusion,
your personal conclusion would be that Onchain is the Superior Solution ,
and offchain transactions poses too much potential for corruption.

[Wind_FURY]

fractional reserve on LN. it has begun

https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/lightning-channel/

500,000 sats capacity You pay 0.000403 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.001341 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.002011 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.003753 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.004825 BTC

Can you explain how that would be possible? Are you telling everyone who reads your post that Bitrefill is issuing "Lightning pegged IOU tokens"?

franky1, can you tell is what your answer to that is? I'm very curious what your deep research on the Lightning Network will bring us. Thanks.

[franky1]

fractional reserve on LN. it has begun

https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/lightning-channel/

500,000 sats capacity You pay 0.000403 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.001341 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.002011 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.003753 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.004825 BTC

Can you explain how that would be possible? Are you telling everyone who reads your post that Bitrefill is issuing "Lightning pegged IOU tokens"?

franky1, can you tell is what your answer to that is? I'm very curious what your deep research on the Lightning Network will bring us. Thanks.

what i have been continually telling you is this:
1. LN is NOT the bitcoin network. LN is its own separate network
2. just like all altcoins just because a transaction (for settlement) look like a particular format does NOT make them a bitcoin transaction
3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain
4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER
7. the channel is just an agreement/promise between 2 parties. a contract. yes a promise/agreement/contract are all the same thing

even a marriage contract is a promise. a commitment is a promise. but there is no 100% guarantee its final. its an ongoing thing that can change. "i PROMISE to love honour and obey in sickness and in health"
LN is not a immutable settled fund. its a promise. AKA an IOU
LN is not 8 decimil measured. its 12 decimal. so its not even the same unit of account. thus is pegged
EG
imagine you bought $10 of game funds. the game funds are 10000millidollars.. they are not $10. they are pegged balance to represent $10 but they are not actually $10.
same thing with 'stablecoins' they are not real fiat, but pegged tokens to represent real bank balance.

only the bitcoin blockchain is the final immutable state
if its not on the blockchain its not a guarantee, its just a promise, hope/maybe

8. there is no community support to audit the LN payment values tally against bitcoin network locked funds. it is just the channel partners that agree they are happy with how the channel is set up (what happens in channel stays inchannel)
9. if i paid you ~$4k in fiat. i would not care how you done it but i would want/expect/agree to a LN channel with ~1btc in LN balance..
10. if i paid you $400 i would be more than happy and agree to getting 1btc in LN balance
11. after the playing around with LN balance has been done. the balance is NOT sent to the bitcoin network. instead it goes back to you (or in the case of bitrefill, them) and they aggregate and decide what to do next.
12. once you update your research on watchtowers and factories you will learn that bitrefill is acting like a factory. they create the value and the channel party just agrees with it. thats how LN works(emphasis point 8 )

[Ucy]

Counterfeiting on Lightening Network really possible? If yes , how possible? Who could do the Counterfeiting without being detected or getting caught? How can Counterfeiting be possible when transactions on LN are not with real Bitcoin. Has anyone successfully Counterfeited on the network before or this is mere speculation?

[Wind_FURY]

fractional reserve on LN. it has begun

https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/lightning-channel/

500,000 sats capacity You pay 0.000403 BTC
2,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.001341 BTC
4,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.002011 BTC
8,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.003753 BTC
16,000,000 sats capacity You pay 0.004825 BTC

Can you explain how that would be possible? Are you telling everyone who reads your post that Bitrefill is issuing "Lightning pegged IOU tokens"?

franky1, can you tell is what your answer to that is? I'm very curious what your deep research on the Lightning Network will bring us. Thanks.

what i have been continually telling you is this:
1. LN is NOT the bitcoin network. LN is its own separate network

Correct, Lightning is not the on-chain Bitcoin network, it's a network for off-chain transactions.

[/quote]

2. just like all altcoins just because a transaction (for settlement) look like a particular format does NOT make them a bitcoin transaction

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.

6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

7. the channel is just an agreement/promise between 2 parties. a contract. yes a promise/agreement/contract are all the same thing

Not a mere agreement, or promise. Those Bitcoins were confirmed on-chain when participants opened the channel.

even a marriage contract is a promise. a commitment is a promise. but there is no 100% guarantee its final. its an ongoing thing that can change. "i PROMISE to love honour and obey in sickness and in health"
LN is not a immutable settled fund. its a promise. AKA an IOU
LN is not 8 decimil measured. its 12 decimal. so its not even the same unit of account. thus is pegged
EG
imagine you bought $10 of game funds. the game funds are 10000millidollars.. they are not $10. they are pegged balance to represent $10 but they are not actually $10.
same thing with 'stablecoins' they are not real fiat, but pegged tokens to represent real bank balance.

only the bitcoin blockchain is the final immutable state
if its not on the blockchain its not a guarantee, its just a promise, hope/maybe

Marriage contract? Haha.

Plus there are no IOUs in Lightning, do your research.

8. there is no community support to audit the LN payment values tally against bitcoin network locked funds. it is just the channel partners that agree they are happy with how the channel is set up (what happens in channel stays inchannel)

Not the blockchain? When it's supposed to wait for 6 confirmations to open a Lightning channel?

9. if i paid you ~$4k in fiat. i would not care how you done it but i would want/expect/agree to a LN channel with ~1btc in LN balance..
10. if i paid you $400 i would be more than happy and agree to getting 1btc in LN balance

Off-topic. But if you didn't know, there are transaction limits in Lightning.

11. after the playing around with LN balance has been done. the balance is NOT sent to the bitcoin network. instead it goes back to you (or in the case of bitrefill, them) and they aggregate and decide what to do next.

I don't know what you mean, but everything is settled on-chain once you broadcast the final state of the channel.

12. once you update your research on watchtowers and factories you will learn that bitrefill is acting like a factory. they create the value and the channel party just agrees with it. thats how LN works(emphasis point 8 )

Ok, explain it like I'm stupid. Without the propaganda, what are watchtowers and channel factories? How do they work technically?

[franky1]

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology

3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance

4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.
What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning
..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

[hv_]

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology

3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance

4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.
What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning
..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

Very good and reasonable rant for on-chain tx security, on-chain use and on-chain scaling btw.

And we all know all other things are in conflict with money transmitter, custodian, kyc, aml.. Whatever laws, all that is much more better sorted out in the honest, 10y proven on-chain Pure Bitcoin P2P protocol.

We still have saved that one

 

[xWolfx]

OP,you provided a comparison but there's no conclusion.
Which one is the best method for offchain transactions?Is there a "best offchain transaction solution"?
All the 3 solutions are centralized(I don't think that there's a decentralized offchain solution in existence),which makes me think that exit scams are possible...

Of course that they might be possible. Now will someone really do it and get away with it? That is something we need to wait and see.

Remember also that if the platform is not secure enough it could also be hacked, even if the people running it had noble intentions of offering a pretty good service.

[nutildah]

Also one of the LN dev proposals even admits it can be a fractional reserve.
https://www.rene-pickhardt.de/index.html%3Fp=2131.html

I suggest to add another feature to the lightning network which I call a virtual payment channel (or in short VPC) to be described in this article.
Such a virtual payment channel will NOT be backed by the blockchain and thus cannot operate in a trustless manner

The main one is that to some degree VPCs resembles the fractional reserve banking system

Most clueless LN fanatics like to say LN is still in beta,
well by the time they finally do claim to be out of beta,
it will be a fully functional undeniable fractional reserve system, ie crypo banking 2.0
which has been the intention since day one.

Because if you truly look at LN , it becomes apparent it will not fix the scaling issues,
unless LN Banks form and do the majority of the offchain transactions, and banks always create a fractional reserve scam.

You're quoting a draft from July 2018 for a proposal that never came to be. Seems like the whole point of your thread is simply to FUD Lightning. Nobody has any plans to create these Virtual Payment Channels. You didn't even quote the entirety of the quote:

While writing down the article I realized there are also some dangers to virtual payment channels. The main one is that to some degree VPCs resembles the fractional reserve banking system even though it is still only credit based on positive money (I think the English language should borrow the German word “Vollgeld-System“). At first I considered dropping the article because the last thing that we need is a cryptocurrency crises similar to the banking crisis that we have been through. However I think when regulated and used properly VPCs will add more benefit than danger to the lightning network. Despite the drawbacks with this article I will still propose this feature.

It was a proposal. Nothing ever came of it. To equate that with there currently being fractional reserve banking in Lightning is low-level deception. What is the point of all this "but what if" conjecturing? What if a critical bug is discovered in the Bitcoin Core code tomorrow? What if the earth gets smashed by a comet? These are also both real concerns we need to be worrying about  

[Wind_FURY]

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

But it was already confirmed on-chain when the Bitcoins were sent to a 2-for-2 multisig address to open a channel. Are those on-chain confirmations meaningless?

There are no IOUs in Lightning.

what you have been taught by others seems to be that blockchains are boring/broke/meaningless because countersigned accounts(channels) are as secure.(facepalm) seems your being told to not care about blockchains revolutionary decentralised concepts and being told that the old fiat banking system of dual authorised payments are the real technology

Facepalm. No, that's false. I never said anything like that. I said there are no "IOU pegged promise to pay tokens" in Lightning. But I do hope the newbies will listen to you, like how I listened to you and Joland Fyookball when I was a newbie.

3. a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settle funds is only a bitcoin transaction of confirmed settled ffunds when its on the bitcoin blockchain

Yes like how the final state of a Lightning channel is broadcasted on-chain like any other Bitcoin on-chain transaction.

broadcasting is meaningless. tx's can drop out of mempool. have insufficient fee. have people slip in CPFP or RBF to get a similar tx in before your "broadcast" gets a chance

Then on-chain transactions are meaningless? I'm confused.

4. anything NOT on the bitcoin blockchain is not a bitcoin transaction

It's not a Bitcoin on-chain transaction, correct, but a Lightning off-chain transaction using Bitcoins bouncing between channels, and with transaction records stored locally.

funds in channel are not bitcoins. learn millisats.
please please please stop spending months pretending you have the answers. and do one thing.. JUST GO USE LN an research it. this is getting repetitive.
until you use and research something. dont even dare pretend to know about it. just the fact that you cant even understand millisats is making you trip over yourself at the first step of understanding

No it's you who dares to pretend to have done all the research about it. You are merely spreading misinformation. But I hope the newbies listen to you. That's the only way to learn the truth.

All newbies, listen to franky1, and assume everything he's telling you is true.

once you learn the above you understand how people writing fake cheques and counterfeit bank notes still OWE people funds once its realised that the funds are not real/wont settle/confirm

Nothing is owed. All Bitcoins in Lightning are accounted for when a user opens a channel.

no they are not
LN is not a community audit of funds. the channel is not open only when a community have accounted the channels and all agreed. instead its just a 2 party agreement on whatever greed decision they want.
its just a handshake between 2 people.
so if you gave me $100 and i said ill open a channel with you and give you 1000000000000ms (pegged 1btc).. you would be orgasming at the great deal of getting to play with what you beleive is 1btc for only $100 cost so you would accept the channel

But what about the confirmed on-chain transaction to open the channel?

5. payments/invoices htlcs are NOT bitcoins. they are not even 8 decimals
6. the 12 decimal payments WILL NEVER EVER EVER settle on a bitcoin blockchain.. EVER

But it still doesn't satisfy your debate that they are IOUs, there are no IOUs. Bitcoins in payment channels are Bitcoins confirmed when the channels were opened.
What settles is the final state of the channel, not whether the off-chain transactions made in Lightning were made with 12 decimals.

oopsy.. u just admitted to yourself the whole thing ur trying to deny
the difference between the off chain transactions made in lightning, vs what the bitcoin blockchain see's

dang you dug yourself such a big hole pretending to just be naive. but they tripped up and fell in, burying yourself by admitting you actually know theres a difference between the in channel and bitcoin network transaction formats/units of measure
you just pretty much admitted to yourself that you know there are 2 formats/differences.
thank you for your self defeat. now may you take a break and spend time learning

What? Haha. Nice try. "Millisats" are possible in Lightning, but when the channel closes, the final state of the channel will always be broadcasted on-chain in 8 decimals. Remember, all transactions in Lightning are stored locally.

..
as for the watchtower/factory stuff
there is no bigworld wide community that sanction off/ drop from relay/ delete channels if the 12 decimal tokens dont tally against a blockchain when opening a channel.
the only parties that handshake to a channel opening are the 2 people in the channel.
again if you paid bitrefil a small amount and they will give you a channel containing a big amount. you can personally refuse it. but then your greed will more than likely accept it.
after all in your mind your not at risk. you got nothing to lose and everything to gain.
again there is no community audit protecting you/preventing you from opening channels. its a private aggrement between 2 people

things like factories are like bitrefil where they give you lots of balance that does not tally against a blockchain. but knowing the channel tx wont ever broadcast. after the 30 days. they just reopen a channel to refresh the balance, without touching the blockchain
obviously if you demand bitrefil to as the watchtower/factory to broadcast a real bitcoin transaction. there would be a penalty/price they would charge

(its much like exchanges play around with THEIR orderbooks as much as you like but when you want to withdraw, you then have to hop they have the coldstore and they dont charge you huge withdrawal fee's or even hop they dont just scam you with the "we been hacked" stuff)

I will try to get someone from Bitrefill to comment. Maybe you know him, and have met him in conferences.

..
but now before you continue.. can you please try to use LN to get a grasp of it. otherwise if you kep refusing to use it but then keep on pretending you know whats happening. im just going to treat you as no longer naive. but just a person thats more interested in causing social drama

If you grasp all of it, then why you do you keep spreading misinformation?

Fractional Reserve has always been the point of LN,

Newbies, listen to him, and assume he's telling you the truth. Learning the hard way is the only way to learn.

[nutildah]

@nutildah

Fractional Reserve has always been the point of LN,

According to your weird, unsubstantiated opinion, and possibly franky's, but nobody else.

If you are afraid this topic was made to destroy LN, let me quell your fears, it is already too late for that.
LN (fractional reserve) will continue and evolve , while supplanting the majority of the crypto sphere, only a few coins will stand against it.

A few coins that nobody uses and have no actual real-world adoption. You're not destroying anything. If Lightning is being "destroyed", why does it reach new record levels of usership on a daily basis?

Just go on the record about it: what coin to you is the better coin that will eventually surpass bitcoin? Obviously you're trying to smear bitcoin, just trying to figure out why.

[talkbitcoin]

you know what the problem with people like OP is?
it is that they always complain about everything! complaining will never solve anything, specially if it is false but that is not what i am trying to talk about here.
let's say for a moment, whatever you are saying about LN here is correct. so what is YOUR solution to have
- a decentralized network that you can make a payment
- that is irreversible within seconds
- is 100% safe
- uncensorable
- and can handle billions of transactions every second from one side of the world to another side

i will be waiting for your contribution!

[franky1]

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

But it was already confirmed on-chain when the Bitcoins were sent to a 2-for-2 multisig address to open a channel. Are those on-chain confirmations meaningless?

There are no IOUs in Lightning.

on the bitcoin network.
COINS ARE LOCKED

i can lock coins as much as i like.
this does not mean i am then forced to open a LN channel and play with LN
this does not mean the coins disapear from bitcoin and are now in some channel waiting for me.

it just means bitcoins are LOCKED and unspendable. on the bitcoin blockchain and only on the bitcoin blockchain. (much the same as the 100confirm maturity that coin rewards of fresh minted blocks go through.. they cant be spent for 100 confirms)

the purpose of this is that while locked. the counter party can trust that X coins are not going anywhere. emphasis not going anywhere
emphasis again NOT GOING ANYWHERE...

so while they aint going anywhere. it makes things easier to discuss privately where they should go at some future date.

so on paper, in voice chat, in code or using sign language 2 people can discuss their spending habits and make a IOU/bartab of who owes who what of that unspendable amount. so thy use nakpins oo text chat. or....... pegged tokens store locally in nodes or on servr mysql databases

LN is simply a coded version of a IOU system

PLEASE GO LEARN!!!
even basic common sense, general knowledge, logic

if you honestly think that bitcoins jump out of the bitcoin network, and jump into anothr network.
and then when in a locked channel of 2 counterparts. them (''bitcoins'') then jump channel to channel

then you have some hard lessons to learn

[nutildah]

I no more care than if you use LN than I care if you use a checking account at the bank.
But I do care if you mislead and try to claim both are not fractional reserve systems.
Fractional Reserve is not possible on Bitcoin onchain ,
Nothing prevents an Offchain network such as LN or an Exchange from acting as a fractional reserve.
Going Offchain has consequences and fractional reserve is one of them.

"Fractional reserve" = saying you have money that you don't. That's not possible with Lightning. Pointing to a proposal written last summer that never went anywhere does not equate to their currently being fractional reserve banking in Lightning. So who is doing the misleading?

Again, your entire argument rests on "what could be" instead of "what is." A lot of things could happen, some of them do, some of them don't, but don't claim things are happening that aren't.

I'll note your prediction that Ethereum and Litecoin will overtake Bitcoin for future reference.

[talkbitcoin]

I was hoping to avoid the bitcoin nutjobs such as windfury & talkbitcoin, sad to say the morons are very active.

and yet you weren't capable of answering the questions that i asked even though i said i am willing to accept all the things you said here as correct! i don't know how that makes me a moron and you a "wise" person

[Khaos77]

I was hoping to avoid the bitcoin nutjobs such as windfury & talkbitcoin, sad to say the morons are very active.

and yet you weren't capable of answering the questions that i asked even though i said i am willing to accept all the things you said here as correct! i don't know how that makes me a moron and you a "wise" person

Sorry did not know you were able to read.

you know what the problem with people like OP is?
it is that they always complain about everything! complaining will never solve anything, specially if it is false but that is not what i am trying to talk about here.
let's say for a moment, whatever you are saying about LN here is correct. so what is YOUR solution to have
- a decentralized network that you can make a payment
- that is irreversible within seconds
- is 100% safe
- uncensorable
- and can handle billions of transactions every second from one side of the world to another side

i will be waiting for your contribution!

Hate to be the one to break it to you, at the moment
their are no decentralized networks that are not reversible , (short chain rewrite)
none are 100% safe, None are uncensorable, none can handle billions per second.

However some do get safer with each block confirmation and reversion potential decreases as does censoring ability.
But where you miss the point , is their is a difference between performance specs and outright fraud.

What you listed are performance issues , and each block increases the safety and certainly of transactions not being reversed.
Transaction limits are the result of current internet bandwidth , which is improving on a yearly basis.

But outright fraud is allowing a fractional reserve ie: counterfeiting into a monetary system,
which a blockchain secures 100% against and offchain solutions do not!

Say you enter a contract where the goal is to show the most funds, winner takes all,
and you are honest and enter your funds, while the counter-party generates false funds using fractional reserve and exceeds your amount,
therefore winning the contest and being able to seize your funds as part of the contract.
The counter-party committed outright fraud and theft , so you want me to believe you be ok with that.,
as you would be the direct victim of it.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/henry_ford_136294

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford

updated:
It is well enough that people of the world do not understand our Lightning Network Offchain system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

[DooMAD]

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/henry_ford_136294

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford

updated:
It is well enough that people of the world do not understand our Lightning Network Offchain system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

Translation:  You and franky1 would ideally like to incite a revolt by lying to people.  You're both doing everything you possibly can to convince people that off-chain is akin to the traditional fractional reserve banking system.  The only conceivable way the two things could ever be considered the same is if your bias is blinding you to reality.  Anyone who isn't harbouring your deep-seated hatred simply isn't going to see it how you do.

Developers understand the damage that would be caused if Lightning ever were to turn out to be the horror show that you and franky1 already attempt to portray it as.  They haven't poured countless hours of their time and effort into it just to make something that would fail.  The development will continue, the userbase will keep growing and none of your scaremongering will change that.

[Wind_FURY]

What do you mean by "transaction for settlement", when the final state of the channel is broadcasted on-chain, it does not make them a Bitcoin transaction?

no
until its CONFIRMED its meaningless
its the whole point of blockchains..
anyone can write a tx and sign it. but unless its confirmed on a blockchain. you have not been paid

But it was already confirmed on-chain when the Bitcoins were sent to a 2-for-2 multisig address to open a channel. Are those on-chain confirmations meaningless?

There are no IOUs in Lightning.

on the bitcoin network.
COINS ARE LOCKED

i can lock coins as much as i like.
this does not mean i am then forced to open a LN channel and play with LN
this does not mean the coins disapear from bitcoin and are now in some channel waiting for me.

it just means bitcoins are LOCKED and unspendable. on the bitcoin blockchain and only on the bitcoin blockchain. (much the same as the 100confirm maturity that coin rewards of fresh minted blocks go through.. they cant be spent for 100 confirms)

the purpose of this is that while locked. the counter party can trust that X coins are not going anywhere. emphasis not going anywhere
emphasis again NOT GOING ANYWHERE...

so while they aint going anywhere. it makes things easier to discuss privately where they should go at some future date.

so on paper, in voice chat, in code or using sign language 2 people can discuss their spending habits and make a IOU/bartab of who owes who what of that unspendable amount. so thy use nakpins oo text chat. or....... pegged tokens store locally in nodes or on servr mysql databases

LN is simply a coded version of a IOU system

PLEASE GO LEARN!!!
even basic common sense, general knowledge, logic

if you honestly think that bitcoins jump out of the bitcoin network, and jump into anothr network.
and then when in a locked channel of 2 counterparts. them (''bitcoins'') then jump channel to channel

then you have some hard lessons to learn

Everything you ever said doesn't meet the debate that there are "IOU pegged promises to pay" in the Lightning Network. What material did you read that made you believe that there were?

Plus read this blog, https://medium.com/@bitrefill/2d6ffbad3906

That answers your Bitrefill "LN Fractional Reserve".

Plus newbies, listen to franky1, and believe everything he posts as the absolute truth, then do your own research. That's the best way to learn.

[Khaos77]

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/henry_ford_136294

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford

updated:
It is well enough that people of the world do not understand our Lightning Network Offchain system,
for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

Translation:  You and franky1 would ideally like to incite a revolt by lying to people.  You're both doing everything you possibly can to convince people that off-chain is akin to the traditional fractional reserve banking system.  The only conceivable way the two things could ever be considered the same is if your bias is blinding you to reality.  Anyone who isn't harbouring your deep-seated hatred simply isn't going to see it how you do.

Developers understand the damage that would be caused if Lightning ever were to turn out to be the horror show that you and franky1 already attempt to portray it as.  They haven't poured countless hours of their time and effort into it just to make something that would fail.  The development will continue, the userbase will keep growing and none of your scaremongering will change that.

Translation Doomad is a Bitcoin Nutjob.

You seem to ignore the fact, it is the LN developers proposing updates that guarantee that LN is a fractional reserve.
Maybe you should contact the devs in the links and tell them to shut up.

Even if they do shut up, fractional reserve is only a small software change away,
the blockchain prevented that, go offchain and it is only a matter of time.

Plus many will use LN, they just be too stupid to know it is a fractional reserve, just like the banking system is one.
Where your confusion keeps thinking , I said LN would die , is in your own fantasies, I said it was too late for that.

Also in your confusion, you can't grasp LN is not bitcoin, LN is a 3rd party offchain IOU network.
Litecoin users are not so stupid to claim LN is litecoin.