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Author Topic: New York State Rockland County Bans Unvaccinted Kids From All Public Places  (Read 590 times)
sheenshane
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March 30, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
 #21

Do you know why people are against vaccination and scare of it? Because of ignorance. I have read an article about this before.

People were influenced not to get vaccinated or doesn't let their kids to be vaccinated because of ignorance.
Humans are scared of the things they can't understand. For example, "chlorine". Chlorine is a very fatal type of chemical and everyone knows it. But 96% of human doesn't even know that the salts that they use for their food every day is containing "chlorine". Chlorine is one of the vital chemicals in vaccines and this is a fact.

People are scared of a vaccine because they are not familiar with the chemicals within the vaccines. Scientific names are really scary.


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March 30, 2019, 06:17:30 PM
 #22

I am not ignoring anything. Again, as in every other time I bring this issue up you avoid responding to the directly related impact of uncontrolled illegal immigration. When dealing with mass medical issues, they use a process called "triage" which is designed to prioritize medical treatment based on the severity of the condition of the patients. Now if there is a group X which needs to be addressed but is in the minority, and a group Y who is in the majority and more severe, it makes no sense to treat group X before addressing the circumstances directly causing the issues of group Y.

I argue that this tiny minority of people only demanding bodily autonomy are simply being used as the scapegoats to cover up for the disease that uncontrolled immigration from the 3rd world with substandard sanitation and healthcare as well as higher infection rates of transmissible diseases. Of course the synthesis of this scapegoating is advancing the continual incremental conditioning of people to losing their rights to everything, including their own bodies.

I don't know enough about the actual non fearmongering statistics regarding illegal immigration, and am not in a position to respond. I'd be happy to point out the CDC's statics that seem to conclude that Mexico has a higher vaccination rate than the U.S, but most of that data is for children, and I have not validated the legitimacy of their data.

I would agree with you if the tiny majority demanding bodily autonomy were absolutely isolated, and had no risk of spreading diseases that they obtained by choice to those that did not make the same choice. I support the choice not to be vaccinated, I do not support the choice to put others at risk because of it though.

Consider the choice to stop bathing. No one can force a person to bathe, but you may find out that you are no longer welcome in public places. Why is that understandable, but when a health risk is at stake, its oppressing a minority group? Again, its all fine and good as long as your choices only effect you when they effect others, it is not acceptable.

That's cute. How convenient you simply can just skip over this entire topic and not even discuss it because "I don't know enough". I love the additional hypocritical touch as you cast my point as fear mongering, but yours as completely logical when we are talking about the same result of the spread of infectious disease. I guess your fear mongering has more credibility does it?

As far as Mexico's vaccination rates, first of all you know very well Mexico is not the only source nation for illegal immigrants, nor are they even the majority source any more. People from all over the world cross illegally via our Southern border, also increasingly from Asian nations where infection rates are also very high. Furthermore it is well established that the rates of infectious disease are in fact substantially higher in South America than North America. I know you are smart enough to know these things, so I can only assume you are being disingenuous at this point. I also find it interesting that the areas that are having the most outbreaks are also in or geographically close to "sanctuary" cities which would naturally act as an inductive force for illegal immigrants to congregate. Here are some related references:

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/images/trends-measles-cases.png

Hmm... 2014... I wonder what happened in 2014...

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/320/cpsprodpb/174D0/production/_105204459_border-nc.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/29/measles-outbreaks-cdc/9718129/

Interesting... the rate of measles infections spiked along with the flood of immigration. Curious we just had a large surge of illegal immigration and suddenly the rate of measles infections is again increasing isn't it?


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-outbreaks/more-than-2000-migrants-quarantined-in-u-s-detention-centers-due-to-disease-outbreaks-idUSKBN1QR0EW
and what is this? Thousands in quarantine? Those seem like some pretty high rates of infection. I wonder how many that they didn't catch got through...

Of course this is all just fear mongering and we should just get over it an give up what few rights we have left for our "safety" right? Pay no attention to the thousands of disease carrying illegal immigrants behind the curtain.


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SaltySpitoon
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March 30, 2019, 06:38:31 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 06:52:10 PM by SaltySpitoon
Merited by Foxpup (5)
 #23


That's cute. How convenient you simply can just skip over this entire topic and not even discuss it because "I don't know enough". I love the additional hypocritical touch as you cast my point as fear mongering, but yours as completely logical when we are talking about the same result of the spread of infectious disease. I guess your fear mongering has more credibility does it?

As far as Mexico's vaccination rates, first of all you know very well Mexico is not the only source nation for illegal immigrants, nor are they even the majority source any more. People from all over the world cross illegally via our Southern border, also increasingly from Asian nations where infection rates are also very high. Furthermore it is well established that the rates of infectious disease are in fact substantially higher in South America than North America. I know you are smart enough to know these things, so I can only assume you are being disingenuous at this point. I also find it interesting that the areas that are having the most outbreaks are also in or geographically close to "sanctuary" cities which would naturally act as an inductive force for illegal immigrants to congregate. Here are some related references:

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/images/trends-measles-cases.png

Hmm... 2014... I wonder what happened in 2014...

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/320/cpsprodpb/174D0/production/_105204459_border-nc.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/29/measles-outbreaks-cdc/9718129/

Interesting... the rate of measles infections spiked along with the flood of immigration. Curious we just had a large surge of illegal immigration and suddenly the rate of measles infections is again increasing isn't it?


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-outbreaks/more-than-2000-migrants-quarantined-in-u-s-detention-centers-due-to-disease-outbreaks-idUSKBN1QR0EW
and what is this? Thousands in quarantine? Those seem like some pretty high rates of infection. I wonder how many that they didn't catch got through...

Of course this is all just fear mongering and we should just get over it an give up what few rights we have left for our "safety" right? Pay no attention to the thousands of disease carrying illegal immigrants behind the curtain.


I can make things up if you'd prefer? Actually, I meant my comment on fear mongering in your benefit. I don't trust any news sources or studies without reading the raw data. I don't know anything about how many illegal immigrants from the Mexican border are Mexican, Mongolian, or Moroccan, again I could make some stuff up if you'd like, but I'd rather just say I don't know enough about it. I'm skipping over the subject not because its not significant, but going back to my point previously, we don't get to just disregard certain things because there are other potentially more significant or important cases elsewhere.

I could say that improper diet is responsible for more than half of a million deaths per year in the U.S alone. For that reason, immigration doesn't matter, vaccination doesn't matter, automobile safety doesn't matter, and africanized honey bees don't matter, but again if we are constantly shifting goalposts, there is no point in discussing anything at all.

Here is what I'm claiming:

1) Lack of vaccinations lead to diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist.

2) Those responsible for infecting others with diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist are solely responsible for the cases that they transmit.

3) In the case that a disease is transmitted, and a non statically insignificant case where permanent damage is done, the one who transmitted it is responsible.

4) The financial and life toll associated with lack of vaccination outweighs your right to infect others.


Here is my conclusion, being told to go away because the rest of the population doesn't want your diseases is not unreasonable. Strapping you into a chair and forcing vaccinations on you is unreasonable. The needs of a society outweigh the rights of an individual, and if you disagree you should not have those rights forcibly stripped from you, but given the option to politely go elsewhere.

If your point is that other unvaccinated individuals are coming in illegally anyway, why does that suddenly invalidate all other concerns? Shouldn't we be just as concerned about them as unvaccinated U.S citizens?


As you said, I'm not paying much attention to the fear mongering statistics of political propaganda trying to support their claims one way or another. Take a look at sources prior to the eradication of infectious diseases to make conclusions about them. People today have the right to be idiots, because they were never actually faced with threats. The reason Mexico is more vaccinated than the U.S, is because they had been dealing with actual epidemics far more recently than us. People under 60 didn't watch their friends and family deal with these diseases, so they are a non issue, that is until they resurface. We forget just how fortunate that we are that we don't live in a time where 50% of children die before they hit age 5, it really wasn't that long ago.

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March 30, 2019, 07:16:48 PM
 #24


That's cute. How convenient you simply can just skip over this entire topic and not even discuss it because "I don't know enough". I love the additional hypocritical touch as you cast my point as fear mongering, but yours as completely logical when we are talking about the same result of the spread of infectious disease. I guess your fear mongering has more credibility does it?

As far as Mexico's vaccination rates, first of all you know very well Mexico is not the only source nation for illegal immigrants, nor are they even the majority source any more. People from all over the world cross illegally via our Southern border, also increasingly from Asian nations where infection rates are also very high. Furthermore it is well established that the rates of infectious disease are in fact substantially higher in South America than North America. I know you are smart enough to know these things, so I can only assume you are being disingenuous at this point. I also find it interesting that the areas that are having the most outbreaks are also in or geographically close to "sanctuary" cities which would naturally act as an inductive force for illegal immigrants to congregate. Here are some related references:

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/images/trends-measles-cases.png

Hmm... 2014... I wonder what happened in 2014...

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/320/cpsprodpb/174D0/production/_105204459_border-nc.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/29/measles-outbreaks-cdc/9718129/

Interesting... the rate of measles infections spiked along with the flood of immigration. Curious we just had a large surge of illegal immigration and suddenly the rate of measles infections is again increasing isn't it?


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-outbreaks/more-than-2000-migrants-quarantined-in-u-s-detention-centers-due-to-disease-outbreaks-idUSKBN1QR0EW
and what is this? Thousands in quarantine? Those seem like some pretty high rates of infection. I wonder how many that they didn't catch got through...

Of course this is all just fear mongering and we should just get over it an give up what few rights we have left for our "safety" right? Pay no attention to the thousands of disease carrying illegal immigrants behind the curtain.


I can make things up if you'd prefer? Actually, I meant my comment on fear mongering in your benefit. I don't trust any news sources or studies without reading the raw data. I don't know anything about how many illegal immigrants from the Mexican border are Mexican, Mongolian, or Moroccan, again I could make some stuff up if you'd like, but I'd rather just say I don't know enough about it. I'm skipping over the subject not because its not significant, but going back to my point previously, we don't get to just disregard certain things because there are other potentially more significant or important cases elsewhere.

I could say that improper diet is responsible for more than half of a million deaths per year in the U.S alone. For that reason, immigration doesn't matter, vaccination doesn't matter, automobile safety doesn't matter, and africanized honey bees don't matter, but again if we are constantly shifting goalposts, there is no point in discussing anything at all.

Here is what I'm claiming:

1) Lack of vaccinations lead to diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist.

2) Those responsible for infecting others with diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist are solely responsible for the cases that they transmit.

3) In the case that a disease is transmitted, and a non statically insignificant case where permanent damage is done, the one who transmitted it is responsible.

4) The financial and life toll associated with lack of vaccination outweighs your right to infect others.


Here is my conclusion, being told to go away because the rest of the population doesn't want your diseases is not unreasonable. Strapping you into a chair and forcing vaccinations on you is unreasonable. The needs of a society outweigh the rights of an individual, and if you disagree you should not have those rights forcibly stripped from you, but given the option to politely go elsewhere.

If your point is that other unvaccinated individuals are coming in illegally anyway, why does that suddenly invalidate all other concerns? Shouldn't we be just as concerned about them as unvaccinated U.S citizens?


As you said, I'm not paying much attention to the fear mongering statistics of political propaganda trying to support their claims one way or another. Take a look at sources prior to the eradication of infectious diseases to make conclusions about them. People today have the right to be idiots, because they were never actually faced with threats. The reason Mexico is more vaccinated than the U.S, is because they had been dealing with actual epidemics far more recently than us. People under 60 didn't watch their friends and family deal with these diseases, so they are a non issue, that is until they resurface. We forget just how fortunate that we are that we don't live in a time where 50% of children die before they hit age 5, it really wasn't that long ago.

You are just repeating yourself now. I could make exactly the same accusation on your part that you are using fear of infection to sell your own preferred narrative using the exact same dismissive logic you use. The sourced numbers are pretty milk toast and well accepted, its not like I linked some conspiracy rag, but anything you can use to not actually address the issue right? Don't make stuff up, put on your big boy pants and fucking learn something instead of just arrogantly dismissing the premise.

The concept that immigration can lead to bringing in infectious disease is not some conspiracy theory, this is a well established FACT. What is also a fact is the population of the so called "antivaxxers" are tiny compared to the flood of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is doing far more to spread disease than a handful of people refusing to vaccinate. Unfortunately it is politically incorrect to address this reality, so all the spineless people ignore it in favor of jumping on the much more popular "2 minutes of hate" against "antivaxxers" fueled and coordinated by popular media via the fear porn that they love so much. This doesn't invalidate other concerns, however if the primary cause is being obfuscated in order to create more dehumanization of minority groups and sell people on the removal of their rights using that fear, then even if all the "antivaxers" just disappear over night you still have a huge problem. In summary you are trying to plug a pinhole in the boat you are in while the whole back end just fell off of the boat. You should probably put the boat back together before worrying about your pinhole.



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March 30, 2019, 08:52:50 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2019, 09:50:33 PM by SaltySpitoon
Merited by Foxpup (4)
 #25

You are just repeating yourself now. I could make exactly the same accusation on your part that you are using fear of infection to sell your own preferred narrative using the exact same dismissive logic you use. The sourced numbers are pretty milk toast and well accepted, its not like I linked some conspiracy rag, but anything you can use to not actually address the issue right? Don't make stuff up, put on your big boy pants and fucking learn something instead of just arrogantly dismissing the premise.

The concept that immigration can lead to bringing in infectious disease is not some conspiracy theory, this is a well established FACT. What is also a fact is the population of the so called "antivaxxers" are tiny compared to the flood of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is doing far more to spread disease than a handful of people refusing to vaccinate. Unfortunately it is politically incorrect to address this reality, so all the spineless people ignore it in favor of jumping on the much more popular "2 minutes of hate" against "antivaxxers" fueled and coordinated by popular media via the fear porn that they love so much. This doesn't invalidate other concerns, however if the primary cause is being obfuscated in order to create more dehumanization of minority groups and sell people on the removal of their rights using that fear, then even if all the "antivaxers" just disappear over night you still have a huge problem. In summary you are trying to plug a pinhole in the boat you are in while the whole back end just fell off of the boat. You should probably put the boat back together before worrying about your pinhole.

If I say that I also support unvaccinated illegal immigrants staying out of the same spaces as unvaccinated U.S citizens, does that help? I'm not "afraid" of infection, statistically it'll never happen to me, but its an absolutely real possibility. I'm not pretending that every single unvaccinated child will catch the plague, but all it takes is one to screw over a lot of people. The same could happen with immigrants as a source of contagion, but that doesn't mean we ignore the pinhole until we've shored up everything else. The problem is that with a single case that occurs, who foots the bill? Who is held responsible, and makes everything right?

Its not media, its thousands of years of human history that have taught us diseases are bad. Telling me to shut up and deal with you doing whatever you want is dismissive in itself, what about my right to not catch your diseases? Now you are stripping me, and using your minority defense to make your point infallible. Anti vaxers are not a minority group, they are just reckless. The point I keep trying to stress, you don't have to get vaccinated. Just don't expect everyone to respect your decision. I don't have to bathe, and if I don't bathe for a few years, I don't get the right to get pissed off when they kick me off the subway. If you don't give a shit about your community, you aren't welcome in your community.

My only point is that you only get to live exactly how you want, with whatever you perceive as your rights, if you live on your own. Don't expect that you can force your bullshit on others, any more than I can force mine on you. That doesn't mean we have to live harmoniously as neighbors however, and a community can tell me to leave for not bathing, and they can tell you to leave for being unvaccinated. A homeowners association can tell you to leave for not having the right color doors, your recourse is to not live in that homeowners association if you don't want to abide by their rules.

We obviously don't care much about each other's opinions even after making our claims. Thats cool, we nor our opinions will likely never effect each other in any way. I'm alright with watching it play out. Shoot me a pm with I told you so when it all works out in the end.

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March 30, 2019, 11:16:28 PM
 #26

You are just repeating yourself now. I could make exactly the same accusation on your part that you are using fear of infection to sell your own preferred narrative using the exact same dismissive logic you use. The sourced numbers are pretty milk toast and well accepted, its not like I linked some conspiracy rag, but anything you can use to not actually address the issue right? Don't make stuff up, put on your big boy pants and fucking learn something instead of just arrogantly dismissing the premise.

The concept that immigration can lead to bringing in infectious disease is not some conspiracy theory, this is a well established FACT. What is also a fact is the population of the so called "antivaxxers" are tiny compared to the flood of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is doing far more to spread disease than a handful of people refusing to vaccinate. Unfortunately it is politically incorrect to address this reality, so all the spineless people ignore it in favor of jumping on the much more popular "2 minutes of hate" against "antivaxxers" fueled and coordinated by popular media via the fear porn that they love so much. This doesn't invalidate other concerns, however if the primary cause is being obfuscated in order to create more dehumanization of minority groups and sell people on the removal of their rights using that fear, then even if all the "antivaxers" just disappear over night you still have a huge problem. In summary you are trying to plug a pinhole in the boat you are in while the whole back end just fell off of the boat. You should probably put the boat back together before worrying about your pinhole.

If I say that I also support unvaccinated illegal immigrants staying out of the same spaces as unvaccinated U.S citizens, does that help? I'm not "afraid" of infection, statistically it'll never happen to me, but its an absolutely real possibility. I'm not pretending that every single unvaccinated child will catch the plague, but all it takes is one to screw over a lot of people. The same could happen with immigrants as a source of contagion, but that doesn't mean we ignore the pinhole until we've shored up everything else. The problem is that with a single case that occurs, who foots the bill? Who is held responsible, and makes everything right?

Its not media, its thousands of years of human history that have taught us diseases are bad. Telling me to shut up and deal with you doing whatever you want is dismissive in itself, what about my right to not catch your diseases? Now you are stripping me, and using your minority defense to make your point infallible. Anti vaxers are not a minority group, they are just reckless. The point I keep trying to stress, you don't have to get vaccinated. Just don't expect everyone to respect your decision. I don't have to bathe, and if I don't bathe for a few years, I don't get the right to get pissed off when they kick me off the subway. If you don't give a shit about your community, you aren't welcome in your community.

My only point is that you only get to live exactly how you want, with whatever you perceive as your rights, if you live on your own. Don't expect that you can force your bullshit on others, any more than I can force mine on you. That doesn't mean we have to live harmoniously as neighbors however, and a community can tell me to leave for not bathing, and they can tell you to leave for being unvaccinated. A homeowners association can tell you to leave for not having the right color doors, your recourse is to not live in that homeowners association if you don't want to abide by their rules.

We obviously don't care much about each other's opinions even after making our claims. Thats cool, we nor our opinions will likely never effect each other in any way. I'm alright with watching it play out. Shoot me a pm with I told you so when it all works out in the end.

Great argument. The only problem is I provided lots of sources and plenty of logical arguments, none of which you bothered to even attempt to refute, instead opting to just call it "bullshit" and creating a false equivalency. I didn't say you were scared, I suggested that the same dismissive logic you applied to me is also equally able to be applied to you, that of fear mongering. I also never told you to "shut up and deal with you doing whatever". Also stripping you? What?

It is a FACT that "antivaxxers" are in the minority, in the literal sense they are small in numbers. I am very sorry of you can't manage to rub a couple brain cells together to come up with a coherent argument against the argument I presented instead once again opting for arrogant dismissal. What about illegal immigrants? Clearly they don't give a shit about our community if they are bringing disease in to the country and violating our laws. Why is it you are so fast to ignore them but focus on "antivaxxers" even though the numbers show they are a much larger source of disease outbreaks?

See you just want your poorly thought out arguments to only work for you while you totally dismiss solid logical arguments with sources I present as bullshit instead of even attempting to directly refute them. You seem hyper focused on the vaccine denial aspect of this when I in fact never once attempted to argue against vaccination, only compulsory vaccination. You aren't even addressing my premise, you are just creating a premise, attributing it to me, then expecting me to defend it as you repeatedly dismiss my actual premise. If you are as smart as you think you are why is it you can't engage me in an intellectually honest debate?


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March 30, 2019, 11:41:55 PM
 #27

....
Here is what I'm claiming:

1) Lack of vaccinations lead to diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist.

2) Those responsible for infecting others with diseases that otherwise wouldn't exist are solely responsible for the cases that they transmit.

3) In the case that a disease is transmitted, and a non statically insignificant case where permanent damage is done, the one who transmitted it is responsible.

4) The financial and life toll associated with lack of vaccination outweighs your right to infect others.


Here is my conclusion, being told to go away because the rest of the population doesn't want your diseases is not unreasonable. Strapping you into a chair and forcing vaccinations on you is unreasonable. The needs of a society outweigh the rights of an individual, and if you disagree you should not have those rights forcibly stripped from you, but given the option to politely go elsewhere.

If your point is that other unvaccinated individuals are coming in illegally anyway, why does that suddenly invalidate all other concerns? Shouldn't we be just as concerned about them as unvaccinated U.S citizens? ....
Sounds pretty reasonable to me as public policy.

I would mention that the medical issues with unfiltered, unfettered illegal immigrants goes far beyond this. Docs here are having to deal now with vast numbers of tropical diseases they have zero experience with, various types of parasites.

It's also true that we're setting up two parallel systems, one which is lax (and free) for the immigrants and another which is strict (and expensive) for the citizens.
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March 31, 2019, 12:08:41 AM
Merited by Foxpup (3), _Miracle (1)
 #28

Great argument. The only problem is I provided lots of sources and plenty of logical arguments, none of which you bothered to even attempt to refute, instead opting to just call it "bullshit" and creating a false equivalency. I didn't say you were scared, I suggested that the same dismissive logic you applied to me is also equally able to be applied to you, that of fear mongering. I also never told you to "shut up and deal with you doing whatever". Also stripping you? What?

It is a FACT that "antivaxxers" are in the minority, in the literal sense they are small in numbers. I am very sorry of you can't manage to rub a couple brain cells together to come up with a coherent argument against the argument I presented instead once again opting for arrogant dismissal. What about illegal immigrants? Clearly they don't give a shit about our community if they are bringing disease in to the country and violating our laws. Why is it you are so fast to ignore them but focus on "antivaxxers" even though the numbers show they are a much larger source of disease outbreaks?

See you just want your poorly thought out arguments to only work for you while you totally dismiss solid logical arguments with sources I present as bullshit instead of even attempting to directly refute them. You seem hyper focused on the vaccine denial aspect of this when I in fact never once attempted to argue against vaccination, only compulsory vaccination. You aren't even addressing my premise, you are just creating a premise, attributing it to me, then expecting me to defend it as you repeatedly dismiss my actual premise. If you are as smart as you think you are why is it you can't engage me in an intellectually honest debate?

No, the problem is we are having a clash of ideologies, not a debate. Your own words are religion to you, and mine are the same to me. I'm not interested in your points about immigration, I brought that up a while ago so you wouldn't waste your time. I'd have to swim through countless hours of research to justify whether your sources are valid or not, what they actually mean, and whether it is worth communicating my thoughts on them. I'd be happy to do that if this was a thread about border security and influx of disease, but as I stated before, I know nothing about any of that. If that was the topic of the thread, I wouldn't have replied, as I have nothing to add to that conversation. I'm not dismissing your claim that immigrant carriers of diseases are of greater number than domestic unvaccinated citizens, because I don't know otherwise. You are not a minority group because of an individual belief on whether or not you should be vaccinated. Citing the 6th grade statistics definition of minority versus the anthropology definition of minority is dishonest.

I cannot engage you in a debate because I cannot understand your point of view. I really don't mean this as a personal attack, but to me, it sounds like you live in a self entitled fairy land, where you can do absolutely anything you want with no regard for others. I understand this is probably not the case, but from my perspective thats what your words mean. My absolute main point throughout the entire discussion which you keep trying to drag away from "County in New York bans unvaccinated from public spaces" to, "We aren't as bad as this other group!" is that you cannot force people to accept your life choices. You make a choice, other people have a reaction, you don't get to scream outrage because other people aren't as understanding of what you consider a good idea. If your point is that the threat is being overblown, sure you might be right! That doesn't change anything, your rights are not being taken from you until someone is holding you down and injecting you. People are just saying I don't want to live with you.

Everything you describe as false equivalencies and incoherent arguments makes absolute perfect sense to me, I'd assume in the same way your argument makes perfect sense to you, and absolutely no sense to me. You don't debate people who have different ideologies as you, because they aren't formed from misunderstanding but perception.
I'm not trying to take some philosophical high ground, I'm just stating that we are both wasting our time.

I do not think that people are physically able to take responsibility for the actions of their choice to not be vaccinated. That is why it is a problem at the social level rather than just a matter of individual responsibility. I have zero problem with unvaccinated people living the way they want, but just don't be surprised if your only neighbors are also unvaccinated neighbors, and when the question is asking 1,000 people to move elsewhere or asking 1, its not really a hard to answer. Set your own house on fire if you'd like, but the situation is different if you live in an apartment complex.

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March 31, 2019, 05:25:41 AM
 #29


Is everyone starting to see the pattern here? Do you really think the government cares this much about your health? This is not about vaccines, this is about control and stripping the rights of ALL OF US.

PROBLEM - REACTION - SOLUTION  = THESIS - ANTITHESIS - SYNTHESIS  =  CHAOS - FEAR - SUMBISSION

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-27/ny-county-bans-unvaccinated-kids-all-public-places

You have it right, I definitely see something going on here. This is a preliminary test of the government to see where in the equation the population sits at currently. I also expect this will not be the last of this tightening of the noose around the necks of unsuspecting citizens (until it is too late). From the cited zerohedge article: " What Rockland County is doing is unconscionable, and they should be completely and utterly ashamed of themselves." [highlights mine]. We must stay vigilant and informative - it is a crucial time in history. Thank you brother for bringing this up.

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March 31, 2019, 10:01:42 AM
 #30


I'd be blunt but I really don't care if adults want to maim themselves with preventable diseases. Want measles? Go ahead, enjoy the rashes and the 1 year weakened immune system. Polio? Whatever floats your boat.

The problem is they're endangering people who can't take the vaccines, like very small childen and the elderly, who also happen to be more susceptible to complications. These people are relying on herd immunity.

 
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March 31, 2019, 10:05:09 AM
 #31

snip
Sounds pretty reasonable to me as public policy.

I would mention that the medical issues with unfiltered, unfettered illegal immigrants goes far beyond this. Docs here are having to deal now with vast numbers of tropical diseases they have zero experience with, various types of parasites.

It's also true that we're setting up two parallel systems, one which is lax (and free) for the immigrants and another which is strict (and expensive) for the citizens.

Blame it on virtue-signalling policy makers far removed from reality being generous with other people's money.

 
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March 31, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
 #32

Great argument. The only problem is I provided lots of sources and plenty of logical arguments, none of which you bothered to even attempt to refute, instead opting to just call it "bullshit" and creating a false equivalency. I didn't say you were scared, I suggested that the same dismissive logic you applied to me is also equally able to be applied to you, that of fear mongering. I also never told you to "shut up and deal with you doing whatever". Also stripping you? What?

It is a FACT that "antivaxxers" are in the minority, in the literal sense they are small in numbers. I am very sorry of you can't manage to rub a couple brain cells together to come up with a coherent argument against the argument I presented instead once again opting for arrogant dismissal. What about illegal immigrants? Clearly they don't give a shit about our community if they are bringing disease in to the country and violating our laws. Why is it you are so fast to ignore them but focus on "antivaxxers" even though the numbers show they are a much larger source of disease outbreaks?

See you just want your poorly thought out arguments to only work for you while you totally dismiss solid logical arguments with sources I present as bullshit instead of even attempting to directly refute them. You seem hyper focused on the vaccine denial aspect of this when I in fact never once attempted to argue against vaccination, only compulsory vaccination. You aren't even addressing my premise, you are just creating a premise, attributing it to me, then expecting me to defend it as you repeatedly dismiss my actual premise. If you are as smart as you think you are why is it you can't engage me in an intellectually honest debate?

No, the problem is we are having a clash of ideologies, not a debate. Your own words are religion to you, and mine are the same to me. I'm not interested in your points about immigration, I brought that up a while ago so you wouldn't waste your time. I'd have to swim through countless hours of research to justify whether your sources are valid or not, what they actually mean, and whether it is worth communicating my thoughts on them. I'd be happy to do that if this was a thread about border security and influx of disease, but as I stated before, I know nothing about any of that. If that was the topic of the thread, I wouldn't have replied, as I have nothing to add to that conversation. I'm not dismissing your claim that immigrant carriers of diseases are of greater number than domestic unvaccinated citizens, because I don't know otherwise. You are not a minority group because of an individual belief on whether or not you should be vaccinated. Citing the 6th grade statistics definition of minority versus the anthropology definition of minority is dishonest.

I cannot engage you in a debate because I cannot understand your point of view. I really don't mean this as a personal attack, but to me, it sounds like you live in a self entitled fairy land, where you can do absolutely anything you want with no regard for others. I understand this is probably not the case, but from my perspective thats what your words mean. My absolute main point throughout the entire discussion which you keep trying to drag away from "County in New York bans unvaccinated from public spaces" to, "We aren't as bad as this other group!" is that you cannot force people to accept your life choices. You make a choice, other people have a reaction, you don't get to scream outrage because other people aren't as understanding of what you consider a good idea. If your point is that the threat is being overblown, sure you might be right! That doesn't change anything, your rights are not being taken from you until someone is holding you down and injecting you. People are just saying I don't want to live with you.

Everything you describe as false equivalencies and incoherent arguments makes absolute perfect sense to me, I'd assume in the same way your argument makes perfect sense to you, and absolutely no sense to me. You don't debate people who have different ideologies as you, because they aren't formed from misunderstanding but perception.
I'm not trying to take some philosophical high ground, I'm just stating that we are both wasting our time.

I do not think that people are physically able to take responsibility for the actions of their choice to not be vaccinated. That is why it is a problem at the social level rather than just a matter of individual responsibility. I have zero problem with unvaccinated people living the way they want, but just don't be surprised if your only neighbors are also unvaccinated neighbors, and when the question is asking 1,000 people to move elsewhere or asking 1, its not really a hard to answer. Set your own house on fire if you'd like, but the situation is different if you live in an apartment complex.

No, I am having a debate, you are having a clash of ideologies. You keep talking to me as if I am advocating not vaccinating when I have done NOTHING OF THE SORT. This is a strawman which you pull out and beat to death with every reply. I am advocating maintaining human rights and against COMPULSORY vaccination. Your argument is this action of stripping people of freedom of movement is justified because the risk of infection. I bring up the logical and sourced argument that the uncontrolled immigration of tens of thousands from impoverished nations with poor sanitation and healthcare is ACTUALLY the cause of this danger you insist is a result of a tiny number of people who refuse to vaccinate.

I find it very ironic you are advocating removing freedom of movement for American citizens while totally ignoring the role of movement of thousands of infected across our borders as if it is inconsequential in comparison. You are suffering from cognitive dissonance. I don't have to be against vaccinations to want to maintain constitutional rights, because the removal of rights of one group legally speaking is precedent for the removal of rights for ALL OF US. This is what you repeatedly insist on ignoring instead pretending my only arguments are false equivalencies as you parrot my words in a polar opposite refractory manner even unable to form your own replies.

Again my position is that these outbreaks are really a result of the uncontrolled flood of immigration, and in order to keep that under wraps this whole "antivaxer" scapegoat was crafted as an extra added strategy for incrementally stripping constitutional rights and conditioning people to this reality as well as covering up the negative health impact of an uncontrolled border.


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April 02, 2019, 06:56:21 PM
 #33

Sorry but building a nuclear reactor is not equivalent to a choice between bodily autonomy and freedom of movement. They are purposely building a very dangerous precedent to desensitize people to these kinds of actions.

I dont see why not. Its not about whether its a choice or not, its a matter of public risk. You have the right to do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't infringe on others. The argument can be made that people that could become carriers for dangerous infectious diseases are a risk to others.

You don't have to be vaccinated, you can just move elsewhere. I can't build a reactor where I'm at, but I could move somewhere where I could potentially obtain a permit to do so.

Whats your take on lepers?

It is literally about that choice for some people. Kind of you to summarily dismiss the reality of the minority. After all, it is not like we live in a constitutional republic where the rights of the minority are protected by the constitution right? Do you really think this tiny minority of people who refuse to vaccinate for whatever reason are more of a threat than the thousands flooding in from our Southern border every month?

I find it interesting a lot of the same people cheering for the loss of individual rights in the name of temporary safety are also cheering for open borders. Of course when you point this out, instantly come the floods of accusations of racism and xenophobia, because of course infectious diseases care what race you are right? At what point does this obsession with taking the rights of others to provide temporary safety end? Is this not setting a dangerous precedent ripe for abuse in the very near future?

If you don't care for the floods of accusations and if you're not a xenophobe then stop acting like a xenophobe.



This whole Anti-Vax Vaxx issue has so many aspects to it:
How much freedom do we want to give up for safety?
How much should we interfere with a parents choice? Even when that choice puts someone else and even their own child at risk.
I am vaccinated for things in countries I may never see, my kid was vaxxed, my pets are always vaxxed- I personally believe in being vaccinated.
Why parents can't trust news outlets or even their doctors to make well informed decisions?  <---that is a problem all on its own right now

About 15 years ago Rotary almost hit a wall with the Polio vaccination. People didn't want to be vaccinated anymore or let their children be vaccinated.
A lot of it was mis-information combined with the fact that Polio was at that point almost eradicated so not only were people afraid of the vaccine, or rumors of what was really happening but many had also not experienced the effects of an outbreak so they either didn't believe it existed or understand how devastating the effects  Polio could be.

There 'used' to be more truth in forums than anywhere else.  Twitter:  @cryptobitchicks  Spock: "I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously. To which are you referring?"
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April 02, 2019, 07:14:34 PM
 #34

The right to travel is a right that everyone has, especially a parent with his property... his child.

File claims in a courts of record - particularly Federal District Court, Corpus Juris Secundum, volume 25, section 334 - against the men/women who are not allowing your right of travel with your property. File against them as wrongdoers. Select at least half of the jury as those who understand vaccines as you do. Let the accused provide the safety docs for the vaccines, as well as the tests that prove the vaccines are beneficial... with proof that the vaccines that have seemed to work in the past, didn't simply work through timing. And that the disease were in remission, already.

As long as you keep filing complaints, and keep on using attorneys, you will fail... except if the court doesn't want you to fail this time, for some nefarious reason.

Karl Lentz... listen to the first 20 episodes - http://jurorinlaw.com/talkshoe/klentz/.

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April 02, 2019, 07:33:06 PM
 #35

Sorry but building a nuclear reactor is not equivalent to a choice between bodily autonomy and freedom of movement. They are purposely building a very dangerous precedent to desensitize people to these kinds of actions.

I dont see why not. Its not about whether its a choice or not, its a matter of public risk. You have the right to do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't infringe on others. The argument can be made that people that could become carriers for dangerous infectious diseases are a risk to others.

You don't have to be vaccinated, you can just move elsewhere. I can't build a reactor where I'm at, but I could move somewhere where I could potentially obtain a permit to do so.

Whats your take on lepers?

It is literally about that choice for some people. Kind of you to summarily dismiss the reality of the minority. After all, it is not like we live in a constitutional republic where the rights of the minority are protected by the constitution right? Do you really think this tiny minority of people who refuse to vaccinate for whatever reason are more of a threat than the thousands flooding in from our Southern border every month?

I find it interesting a lot of the same people cheering for the loss of individual rights in the name of temporary safety are also cheering for open borders. Of course when you point this out, instantly come the floods of accusations of racism and xenophobia, because of course infectious diseases care what race you are right? At what point does this obsession with taking the rights of others to provide temporary safety end? Is this not setting a dangerous precedent ripe for abuse in the very near future?

If you don't care for the floods of accusations and if you're not a xenophobe then stop acting like a xenophobe.



This whole Anti-Vax Vaxx issue has so many aspects to it:
How much freedom do we want to give up for safety?
How much should we interfere with a parents choice? Even when that choice puts someone else and even their own child at risk.
I am vaccinated for things in countries I may never see, my kid was vaxxed, my pets are always vaxxed- I personally believe in being vaccinated.
Why parents can't trust news outlets or even their doctors to make well informed decisions?  <---that is a problem all on its own right now

About 15 years ago Rotary almost hit a wall with the Polio vaccination. People didn't want to be vaccinated anymore or let their children be vaccinated.
A lot of it was mis-information combined with the fact that Polio was at that point almost eradicated so not only were people afraid of the vaccine, or rumors of what was really happening but many had also not experienced the effects of an outbreak so they either didn't believe it existed or understand how devastating the effects  Polio could be.

So because I want the laws of my nation to be enforced, I don't want the people here to be infected with diseases, and I don't want all of our social systems to collapse under the weight of uncontrolled illegal immigration, and have our rights stripped I am a xenophobe? This continual autistic screeching from the left about racism, xenophobia, and victim status is so frequently and arbitrarily exploited it has literally become meaningless and made it that much harder to identify ACTUAL racists. Good job.

You have no argument so instead you are forced to resort to character attacks to pretend you have a point and pretend you are in a position of moral superiority. What about the immigrants already here who don't want their opportunities taken by this tidal wave of people from the 3rd world? Fuck them too right? Again, much like SaltySpitoon you are relying on the strawman of anti-vaccination in order to argue against the premise of preserving human and constitutional rights in favor of removing informed consent for medical treatment. I am not against vaccination, I am against COMPULSORY vaccination.


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April 02, 2019, 08:18:09 PM
 #36

Sorry but building a nuclear reactor is not equivalent to a choice between bodily autonomy and freedom of movement. They are purposely building a very dangerous precedent to desensitize people to these kinds of actions.

I dont see why not. Its not about whether its a choice or not, its a matter of public risk. You have the right to do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't infringe on others. The argument can be made that people that could become carriers for dangerous infectious diseases are a risk to others.

You don't have to be vaccinated, you can just move elsewhere. I can't build a reactor where I'm at, but I could move somewhere where I could potentially obtain a permit to do so.

Whats your take on lepers?

It is literally about that choice for some people. Kind of you to summarily dismiss the reality of the minority. After all, it is not like we live in a constitutional republic where the rights of the minority are protected by the constitution right? Do you really think this tiny minority of people who refuse to vaccinate for whatever reason are more of a threat than the thousands flooding in from our Southern border every month?

I find it interesting a lot of the same people cheering for the loss of individual rights in the name of temporary safety are also cheering for open borders. Of course when you point this out, instantly come the floods of accusations of racism and xenophobia, because of course infectious diseases care what race you are right? At what point does this obsession with taking the rights of others to provide temporary safety end? Is this not setting a dangerous precedent ripe for abuse in the very near future?

If you don't care for the floods of accusations and if you're not a xenophobe then stop acting like a xenophobe.



This whole Anti-Vax Vaxx issue has so many aspects to it:
How much freedom do we want to give up for safety?
How much should we interfere with a parents choice? Even when that choice puts someone else and even their own child at risk.
I am vaccinated for things in countries I may never see, my kid was vaxxed, my pets are always vaxxed- I personally believe in being vaccinated.
Why parents can't trust news outlets or even their doctors to make well informed decisions?  <---that is a problem all on its own right now

About 15 years ago Rotary almost hit a wall with the Polio vaccination. People didn't want to be vaccinated anymore or let their children be vaccinated.
A lot of it was mis-information combined with the fact that Polio was at that point almost eradicated so not only were people afraid of the vaccine, or rumors of what was really happening but many had also not experienced the effects of an outbreak so they either didn't believe it existed or understand how devastating the effects  Polio could be.

So because I want the laws of my nation to be enforced, I don't want the people here to be infected with diseases, and I don't want all of our social systems to collapse under the weight of uncontrolled illegal immigration, and have our rights stripped I am a xenophobe? This continual autistic screeching from the left about racism, xenophobia, and victim status is so frequently and arbitrarily exploited it has literally become meaningless and made it that much harder to identify ACTUAL racists. Good job.

You have no argument so instead you are forced to resort to character attacks to pretend you have a point and pretend you are in a position of moral superiority. What about the immigrants already here who don't want their opportunities taken by this tidal wave of people from the 3rd world? Fuck them too right? Again, much like SaltySpitoon you are relying on the strawman of anti-vaccination in order to argue against the premise of preserving human and constitutional rights in favor of removing informed consent for medical treatment. I am not against vaccination, I am against COMPULSORY vaccination.

I didn't bring up immigration but it seems to be an argument you want to have: even if it's only with yourself...have at it.
Didn't call you a racist and thought what I said was very direct and clear.
I'm not a leftist or on the right and for sure have --zero- claim to moral superiority.

Your own words are the only things on this forum capable of character attacks against you.

There 'used' to be more truth in forums than anywhere else.  Twitter:  @cryptobitchicks  Spock: "I am expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously. To which are you referring?"
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April 02, 2019, 11:11:05 PM
 #37

So because I want the laws of my nation to be enforced, I don't want the people here to be infected with diseases, and I don't want all of our social systems to collapse under the weight of uncontrolled illegal immigration, and have our rights stripped I am a xenophobe? This continual autistic screeching from the left about racism, xenophobia, and victim status is so frequently and arbitrarily exploited it has literally become meaningless and made it that much harder to identify ACTUAL racists. Good job.

You have no argument so instead you are forced to resort to character attacks to pretend you have a point and pretend you are in a position of moral superiority. What about the immigrants already here who don't want their opportunities taken by this tidal wave of people from the 3rd world? Fuck them too right? Again, much like SaltySpitoon you are relying on the strawman of anti-vaccination in order to argue against the premise of preserving human and constitutional rights in favor of removing informed consent for medical treatment. I am not against vaccination, I am against COMPULSORY vaccination.

I didn't bring up immigration but it seems to be an argument you want to have: even if it's only with yourself...have at it.
Didn't call you a racist and thought what I said was very direct and clear.
I'm not a leftist or on the right and for sure have --zero- claim to moral superiority.

Your own words are the only things on this forum capable of character attacks against you.

Yes, I brought up immigration, and? I brought it up because it is the real cause of these outbreaks but everyone is so afraid of being politically incorrect everyone denies it even when the numbers clearly support this premise. The tiny minority of "antivaxxers" are simply being used as a scapegoat, a distraction, and another incremental infringement of human rights that the Fabians trying to take over our nation are oh so fond of.

I suppose it is just a coincidence that xenophobia is a synonym of racism eh? No of course you didn't call me racist, you just used an interchangeable word with racism to label me. I don't care what you identify as, you are still spouting leftist Marxist rhetoric regardless if you know enough to recognize this or not. Most Socialists, Marxists, and Communists like to think they are some thing else anyway because that is how they work, via re-branding, deception, and infiltration, and it will always "be different this time". Unfortunately people are usually too ignorant of political theory, psychology, and history to know they are spouting Marxist ideologies.


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April 03, 2019, 12:03:12 AM
 #38

So because I want the laws of my nation to be enforced, I don't want the people here to be infected with diseases, and I don't want all of our social systems to collapse under the weight of uncontrolled illegal immigration, and have our rights stripped I am a xenophobe? This continual autistic screeching from the left about racism, xenophobia, and victim status is so frequently and arbitrarily exploited it has literally become meaningless and made it that much harder to identify ACTUAL racists. Good job.

You have no argument so instead you are forced to resort to character attacks to pretend you have a point and pretend you are in a position of moral superiority. What about the immigrants already here who don't want their opportunities taken by this tidal wave of people from the 3rd world? Fuck them too right? Again, much like SaltySpitoon you are relying on the strawman of anti-vaccination in order to argue against the premise of preserving human and constitutional rights in favor of removing informed consent for medical treatment. I am not against vaccination, I am against COMPULSORY vaccination.

I didn't bring up immigration but it seems to be an argument you want to have: even if it's only with yourself...have at it.
Didn't call you a racist and thought what I said was very direct and clear.
I'm not a leftist or on the right and for sure have --zero- claim to moral superiority.

Your own words are the only things on this forum capable of character attacks against you.

Yes, I brought up immigration, and? I brought it up because it is the real cause of these outbreaks but everyone is so afraid of being politically incorrect everyone denies it even when the numbers clearly support this premise. The tiny minority of "antivaxxers" are simply being used as a scapegoat, a distraction, and another incremental infringement of human rights that the Fabians trying to take over our nation are oh so fond of.

I suppose it is just a coincidence that xenophobia is a synonym of racism eh? No of course you didn't call me racist, you just used an interchangeable word with racism to label me. I don't care what you identify as, you are still spouting leftist Marxist rhetoric regardless if you know enough to recognize this or not. Most Socialists, Marxists, and Communists like to think they are some thing else anyway because that is how they work, via re-branding, deception, and infiltration, and it will always "be different this time". Unfortunately people are usually too ignorant of political theory, psychology, and history to know they are spouting Marxist ideologies.


OK

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April 03, 2019, 12:10:20 AM
 #39

Yes, I brought up immigration, and? I brought it up because it is the real cause of these outbreaks but everyone is so afraid of being politically incorrect everyone denies it even when the numbers clearly support this premise. The tiny minority of "antivaxxers" are simply being used as a scapegoat, a distraction, and another incremental infringement of human rights that the Fabians trying to take over our nation are oh so fond of.

I suppose it is just a coincidence that xenophobia is a synonym of racism eh? No of course you didn't call me racist, you just used an interchangeable word with racism to label me. I don't care what you identify as, you are still spouting leftist Marxist rhetoric regardless if you know enough to recognize this or not. Most Socialists, Marxists, and Communists like to think they are some thing else anyway because that is how they work, via re-branding, deception, and infiltration, and it will always "be different this time". Unfortunately people are usually too ignorant of political theory, psychology, and history to know they are spouting Marxist ideologies.


OK

Great debate as usual.


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okala
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April 03, 2019, 06:33:13 PM
 #40

Sorry, but the "right" to get sick and die horribly only applies to things that aren't contagious.

It is interesting how people always seem to see themselves on the side of the ones being protected but never imagine themselves being the ones stripped of their rights. You don't get it. The dilution of the rights of any is dilution of the rights of us all. This is how law works.
To me there have been too many records of contiguous diseases in the world already and I support the government restrictions of unvaccinated kids from public places in other to prevent spread of contiguous diseases. It better for us to prevent it from happening then looking for solutions after the harm have been done and I don't see it as an abuse of right of any kid.

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