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Author Topic: Thailand files complaint against Bitcoin Seasteader  (Read 867 times)
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April 29, 2019, 04:22:22 AM
 #41

I hope they remain safe and healthy and Thailand might eventually drop the charge.

I guess we should not talk about their whereabouts and messages and any post regarding this should be deleted from this forum.

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April 29, 2019, 05:17:23 PM
 #42

it's sad how people have taken control of different territorial and even water bodies. right now all I can remember is pirates who also used to live on water bodies with their floating ships. what if someone just takes their ships and stays in the middle of water bodies and builds a farm or something.

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April 29, 2019, 08:03:47 PM
Merited by otrkid1970 (1)
 #43

it's sad how people have taken control of different territorial and even water bodies. right now all I can remember is pirates who also used to live on water bodies with their floating ships. what if someone just takes their ships and stays in the middle of water bodies and builds a farm or something.

If you are on a ship it's not a problem. Thailand has attempted to contact Elwar's seastead to make them move. You simply cannot have a permanent building there, like an oil platform. I don't like what the government is doing to them, but think about it for a second. They don't know what he's doing there. What if he was a cyber terrorist trying to hack into the computers of passing ships through their wifi and steal private data? What if there was an accident because some passing ship didn't see his seastead at night and rammed it?
When you have a sea boat you also have a working radio, a radar, proper lights, and are able to move if needed. Nobody should have a problem with you living on a boat (at least not in a civilized country, which Thailand in light of the recent events might not be).

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April 29, 2019, 08:23:26 PM
 #44

it's sad how people have taken control of different territorial and even water bodies. right now all I can remember is pirates who also used to live on water bodies with their floating ships. what if someone just takes their ships and stays in the middle of water bodies and builds a farm or something.

If you are on a ship it's not a problem. Thailand has attempted to contact Elwar's seastead to make them move. You simply cannot have a permanent building there, like an oil platform. I don't like what the government is doing to them, but think about it for a second. They don't know what he's doing there. What if he was a cyber terrorist trying to hack into the computers of passing ships through their wifi and steal private data? What if there was an accident because some passing ship didn't see his seastead at night and rammed it?
When you have a sea boat you also have a working radio, a radar, proper lights, and are able to move if needed. Nobody should have a problem with you living on a boat (at least not in a civilized country, which Thailand in light of the recent events might not be).
What hack into the local fishermen in the wooden boats. If you want some data you have to go places where there is data, out in the ocean is none and power is also hard to get.
Lets just hope you never go to sea because you have no idea whatsoever. A massive steel seastead can be seen on radar for a very long way, pity the poor fisherman in his small wooden boat, you sure gonna ram him out of the way. People been crossing oceans for ages when traveling solo, sleeping at night, do they all get rammed. Do you regularly ram parked cars at night?

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April 29, 2019, 09:54:33 PM
 #45

What hack into the local fishermen in the wooden boats.

In Elwar's case there were much bigger boats sailing in the vicinity (at least according to Thai officials). What if trawler run into it in foggy weather? Who would be responsible? Elwar or the authorities who did not act knowing his seasted is there without proper documents and safety equipment?

Quote
If you want some data you have to go places where there is data, out in the ocean is none and power is also hard to get.

You're telling me that oil tankers have no data and no wifi, same as motor yachts and other cargo ships. They have gyms and cinemas onboard but no computers and no sensitive data. We are no longer in the 90s, you know.
As for power being hard to get... it doesn't stop millions of yachts and cargo ships from having advanced electronic equipment. Even sail boats have generators and/or solar panels these days.

Quote
Lets just hope you never go to sea because you have no idea whatsoever. A massive steel seastead can be seen on radar for a very long way, pity the poor fisherman in his small wooden boat, you sure gonna ram him out of the way. People been crossing oceans for ages when traveling solo, sleeping at night, do they all get rammed. Do you regularly ram parked cars at night?

2/24/2019
Local authorities declared that five people have been uncounted for as a fishing boat rammed into a cargo ship and capsized in the sea near east China's Zhejiang Province.
The incident took place at about 1:40 p.m. Saturday.
https://menafn.com/1098164099/China-5-missing-after-boat-cargo-ship-crash

The Rome prosecutor's office has opened an inquiry into the case of Aldo Revello and Antonio Voinea, two yachtsmen from La Spezia who disappeared on May 2 off Portugal.
The file was opened after an anonymous source sent a tip-off to Revello's wife, Rosa Cilano Revello, that the yacht had been rammed by a cargo ship.
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/2018/10/23/missing-yachtsmen-died-after-rammed-by-cargo-ship_8b9ea77e-bd68-412c-a015-6064c4126c43.html

I could keep posting but what's the point? It's not about how many accidents there are but about rules set to prevent such accidents.

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April 29, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
 #46

Quote from: coolcoinz
I could keep posting but what's the point? It's not about how many accidents there are but about rules set to prevent such accidents.
Who created these alleged rules? Under what authority?

All of the incidents you cited took place in different countries (assuming they occurred within their respective territorial waters.

What rules would Elwar need to follow to stay “compliant”?

I am not sure if you are aware, but Elwar was located in international waters that no country has claim to.   

Do you think I am spamming? If so, you are probably wrong.
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April 30, 2019, 05:30:44 AM
Last edit: April 30, 2019, 06:35:35 AM by ðºÞæ
 #47

@coolcoinz
Did not even bother to read response as errors a to numerous.

The seastead is not a permanent structure, it was moored before pirates captured it and took it. It was not a a shipping lane and the only cargo ship passing maybe once a week an old junk on its way to get scraped. The fault is with someone who runs into something stationary. You the kind of guy crashing into a ghost ship and blaming it for the accident because you sounded the horn 3 times and gone full speed it still did not go out of your way. https://sobify.com/ghost-ship-in-the-arctic-floats-unmanned-for-nearly-40-years/ The ocean is full with all sorts of stuff including thousand of shipping containers, some float for a very long time, years before sinking.
He had way more lighting than any old yacht would have.
The seastead did have an AIS bouy transmitting the location.

If someone wants to get into data from a tanker he better get some motoryacht and keep cruising alongside for some time. Sitting in the middle of the ocean and wait for someone to be in wifi range for a couple of minutes to hack into is so far detached form reality its beyond funny.
Stop eating toothpaste, sniff glue or smoke what ever it is because it starts to show.

Besides living in the middle of nowhere is to get away from it all and live with nature and peace. Escape form the derailed.

Edit:
Luckily he did not cross path with you. Radar is of no use for something that small and wooden that low on the surface.
https://www.voanews.com/a/frenchman-completes-trans-atlantic-journey-in-a-barrel/4894977.html

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April 30, 2019, 09:28:59 AM
Last edit: April 30, 2019, 10:05:30 AM by coolcoinz
 #48

@coolcoinz
Did not even bother to read response as errors a to numerous.

How can you know? Reading and taking into account are not the same.
I actually did my best to prove my point and you're getting all personal with me, recommending me to try your favourite forms of entertainment. I'll pass.
You also went a long way as a marine specialist from claiming that power is hard to come buy at sea to claiming that seastead had AIS and was perfectly lit at night.
We won't resolve this if you say there's one ship per week passing there and I can't confirm nor deny. How do you know how many ships pass by the seastead?

As for whether it poses a threat or not you'd have to take it up with this guy:

Vice Governor Supoj Rotreuang Na Nongkhai urged sensitivity in following due process in the case.
“Wichit Police is investigating the case and reviewing the evidence carefully because the penalty foe the charge under the complaint filed is so serious.”
“The next move is to have the structure removed. We have drawn up a plan together with the Royal Thai Navy Third Area Command already. The seastead will be seized and removed from the water because the seastead it is in a location that is dangerous for itself and for boats passing through the area,” V/Gov Supoj said.
https://www.thephuketnews.com/police-open-door-to-no-death-penalty-charge-over-phuket-seastead-case-71151.php#F1Vo87QAQR44ATuR.99

All of the incidents you cited took place in different countries (assuming they occurred within their respective territorial waters.
Yes, they did, because I literally took 30 seconds to google the recent events of a boat being rammed by a cargo vessel to prove a point that although they can be visible on a radar accidents do happen.

Quote
Who created these alleged rules? Under what authority?

Hard to say, I'm not an expert. All I know is that here in the EU every vessel that exceeds certain length has to be inspected after construction and it has to comply with safety regulations. So, you can't build a yacht in your own garage and go to open seas.
Don't get me wrong, I feel like the government overreacted, but there are probably no rules for permanent sea housing so they treated his seastead like a boat.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/thailand/lifestyle/sports-leisure/sailing

Quote
What rules would Elwar need to follow to stay “compliant”?

First and foremost, be there to talk. The authorities claim he did not fill any paperwork with port authorities. They tried to contact him via radio, but there was no response. They went to visit, but found nobody home, so they took it for an abandoned structure and towed it.

Quote
I am not sure if you are aware, but Elwar was located in international waters that no country has claim to.  

Thai authorities say that it's their economic zone where they are allowed to fish and such. It's strange that no country is against Thailand performing military operations in international waters. They sent a warship to dismantle the seastead and move it within its borders, so they stole a property that neighboring countries like Malaysia could have equal claims to, but obviously nobody cares.

 


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April 30, 2019, 10:34:53 AM
 #49


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I am not sure if you are aware, but Elwar was located in international waters that no country has claim to.  

Thai authorities say that it's their economic zone where they are allowed to fish and such. It's strange that no country is against Thailand performing military operations in international waters. They sent a warship to dismantle the seastead and move it within its borders, so they stole a property that neighboring countries like Malaysia could have equal claims to, but obviously nobody cares.


It's not that nobody cares, it's the contrary. All countries support Thailand. All countries would have reacted exactly the same way, and Elwar was naive to think he was safe being just behind the 12 miles limit. Try to build a seastead 13 miles off the coast of Florida, you'll get Marines assaulting you within days.

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April 30, 2019, 11:07:56 AM
Last edit: April 30, 2019, 11:29:30 AM by ðºÞæ
 #50


Quote
I am not sure if you are aware, but Elwar was located in international waters that no country has claim to.  

Thai authorities say that it's their economic zone where they are allowed to fish and such. It's strange that no country is against Thailand performing military operations in international waters. They sent a warship to dismantle the seastead and move it within its borders, so they stole a property that neighboring countries like Malaysia could have equal claims to, but obviously nobody cares.


It's not that nobody cares, it's the contrary. All countries support Thailand. All countries would have reacted exactly the same way, and Elwar was naive to think he was safe being just behind the 12 miles limit. Try to build a seastead 13 miles off the coast of Florida, you'll get Marines assaulting you within days.

At very basic get facts straight. 12 NM is 13.80936 Miles, 22.22401km the US does have a 24 NM Contiguous zone.

Quote
Territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea,[1] is a belt of coastal waters extending at most 12 nautical miles (22.2 km; 13.8 mi) from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below. Adjustment of these boundaries is called, in international law, maritime delimitation.

A state's territorial sea extends up to 12 nautical miles (22.2 km; 13.8 mi) from its baseline. If this would overlap with another state's territorial sea, the border is taken as the median point between the states' baselines, unless the states in question agree otherwise. A state can also choose to claim a smaller territorial sea.

Conflicts have occurred whenever a coastal nation claims an entire gulf as its territorial waters while other nations only recognize the more restrictive definitions of the UN convention. Claims which draw baseline in excess of 24 nautical miles (two 12 NM limits) are judged excessive by the U.S. Two conflicts occurred in the Gulf of Sidra where Libya drew a line in excess of 230 NM and claimed the entire enclosed gulf as its territorial waters. The U.S. exercised freedom of navigation rights twice, in the 1981 and 1989 Gulf of Sidra incidents.

In the U.S. federal system, individual states exercise ownership (subject to federal law) up to 3 nautical miles (9 nautical miles for Texas and Florida) from shore, while the federal government exercises sole territorial jurisdiction further out (see Tidelands).

Guys with guns (military dictatorship) not operating within law, knowing or obeying it, what a surprise. Full support of Kim, no way, really, shit who would have thought. Elwar is certainly wrong in entering and exiting without immigration formalities, crossing the 12 NM line.

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April 30, 2019, 06:21:52 PM
Merited by TECSHARE (1)
 #51

Consider. There are boats and ships that people live on all over the world. So, why would they pick on Elwar? It was for something else, other than simply living on a glorified "boat" near their mainland. It might have been that he advertised ideas they didn't want the world to hear. Or he might have had a legal problem with them that we are not aware of; the news said he had a visa with them that got revoked.

There's more to this than we are being told.

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May 10, 2019, 09:00:35 AM
 #52

Hoping for good news on this..

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May 10, 2019, 10:39:57 AM
Last edit: May 10, 2019, 10:53:58 AM by vapourminer
Merited by eddie13 (1)
 #53

Hoping for good news on this..

he sent the message "I'm alive" very recently. which of course is good news.

obviously no other info as hes laying low till the situation clarifies.

he is resourceful and of course there is little more that can provide incentive to stay low than a possible death sentence.

Thailand has blown this way out of proportion. ok he did wrong according to Thai law. but this deserves special consideration as its (mostly) all new territory legally, and he genuinely has his heart in the right place. "threat to Thai sovereignty?" i think they vastly overestimate what this experiment was. and it was an experiment.. a prototype.

i think Thailand blew a great opportunity to come to the forefront in an emerging tech that could of provided much world recognition of a new technology and that could of boosted Thai tourism, all they needed to do is say "look, this is cool but heres the deal: you need to realize there are limitations to what you can do 13 miles out, and we would be happy to clarify and assist in this."

instead, they send warships. i can almost understand that actually, but the way they did it was over the top IMO.

Elwar, if youre reading this know we are all rooting for you. you and Supranee stay safe. if you can and its safe we would love updates.

your story, if/when  you choose to tell us, will be most informative and of course nail biting.

we all owe you and people like you for the advances in tech like this that can only help the human race. sooner or later we have to expand to the sea, and you and people like you are leading the way. few people can say that.

much respect and i mean that sincerely.

STAY FREE

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May 10, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), malevolent (1)
 #54

he sent the message "I'm alive" very recently. which of course is good news.

Thanks goodness then. It's OK that he keep the details, he could still not be entirely safe.

I agree about how crazy Thailand's reaction is. Just showed that Thailand is still very much a royalty-sanctioned dictatorship. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/03/thailand-military-junta-election-king/585274/

Might not be a red flag for ordinary tourists but would definitely scare away certain types of investors, for example those engaging in crypto.

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May 10, 2019, 10:41:40 PM
Last edit: May 11, 2019, 02:10:05 AM by malevolent
 #55

instead, they send warships. i can almost understand that actually, but the way they did it was over the top IMO.

Shows how weak they are if they feel the need to respond in such a disproportionately heavy-handed way.  Kind of in a similar vein to how the smallest dogs bark the loudest.

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May 11, 2019, 01:29:54 PM
Merited by malevolent (1)
 #56

IMO we should boycott Thailand among our community until Elwar is free, and spread the word that American tourists risk the death penalty going there.

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May 11, 2019, 01:46:50 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #57

IMO we should boycott Thailand among our community until Elwar is free, and spread the word that American tourists risk the death penalty going there.

Thailand is going complete way-hay, not really surprising for a dictatorship.
Soon taking a selfie will get you a possible death sentence.
https://canoe.com/news/world/bikini-clad-selfie-taking-tourists-could-face-death-penalty-on-this-thai-beach

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May 11, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
 #58

IMO we should boycott Thailand among our community until Elwar is free, and spread the word that American tourists risk the death penalty going there.

Thailand is going complete way-hay, not really surprising for a dictatorship.
Soon taking a selfie will get you a possible death sentence.
https://canoe.com/news/world/bikini-clad-selfie-taking-tourists-could-face-death-penalty-on-this-thai-beach


I understand that there could be a danger to the tourists as well since this is near an airport. I don't know how close it is to the runway. I believe I've seen vids of the Caribbean airport mentioned on the article and people really do get blasted by jet.

Still, the penalty is ridiculous. For a Buddhist country Thailand seem to be quite enthusiastic to slap the death penalty on various offenses. Maybe next time they'll explain it as "assisted reincarnation".

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May 11, 2019, 07:44:01 PM
 #59

For a Buddhist country Thailand seem to be quite enthusiastic to slap the death penalty on various offenses. Maybe next time they'll explain it as "assisted reincarnation".

just need signs at every point of entry thats says "Welcome to Thailand. We may kill you for any reason at any time. Enjoy your stay."
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May 12, 2019, 08:03:56 AM
 #60

Some Airport runways are real close:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlTNj6IWey4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS8y89DHMTs (St. Maarten, Caribbean)

and of course there is Gibraltar, most countries have boom-gates for trains not Gibraltar, you walk on the runway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B8LEjK6UN4


The Thai military hoons also started to make life difficult for street food sellers who work extreme long hours just to earn some small change by chasing them away in Bangkok. Food vendors is on of the things giving it its flair. Personally want go anywhere near it, not even for stop-over.

Edit:
Barra International Airport, Scotland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STqmbc8k9rU

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