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Author Topic: Collecting Community input needed>> Definitions used in our unique hobby  (Read 568 times)
krogothmanhattan
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April 21, 2019, 01:27:06 AM
Last edit: April 25, 2019, 10:15:41 AM by krogothmanhattan
Merited by Flying Hellfish (5), DaveF (5), Spazzer (5), AT101ET (3), yogg (3), actmyname (2), OgNasty (1), wheelz1200 (1), minerjones (1), vizique (1), micgoossens (1), 2stout (1), WhyFhy (1)
 #1

      Would like to make a list of definitions we use in our unique hobby
for both new people and seasoned collectors alike.


       And what better place than ask the most seasoned and knowledgeable
people in the Physical Bitcoin Cryptoverse than here?


       That being said...I have listed some definitions down below that
some will agree with and I know others will not. These are my opinions
and thus would like everyone's input as I know there will be lots of disagreements.

          So I welcome everyone 's feedback as it is important not just for
myself...but for everyone else.

        I will only be referring to Bitcoin coins or tokens.



Unloaded...Loadable and no crypto ever loaded onto paper wallet under hologram.

Loaded...Has digital Bitcoin loaded inside paper wallet under hologram.

Peeled coin....Security hologram removed and coin swept from paper wallet...thus private
key exposed. This will essentially transform the Physical Bitcoin coin into
a Bitcoin token.

Breached or possibly breached - [REFERENCE] Breached or Scam coin makers list

Token...symbolic of the item they represent.

Coin a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money, in our case digital money.

Bitcoin token ...symbolic of bitcoin only..no digital value loaded. A
token that cannot be loaded with bitcoin or is unloaded...but has a bitcoin symbol on its
face..not loadable or unloaded.

Physical Bitcoin coin:  A coin representing Bitcoin with a paper wallet or any other device loaded with digital Bitcoin in it.
   This usually in most cases contains a security hologram covering the loaded paper wallet or even an NFC device.

To me.....a coin with a btc logo is not a Physical Bitcoin coin..it's a
token..in other words...cannot be used as a means of paying in Bitcoin or as a currency exchange using bitcoin.
A loaded coin can...ex...digital btc exchanged in person without going thru
blockchain. If coin is lost..so is the bitcoin. Unique in the history of coins.

So if an unloaded Bitcoin token has a holo with a loadable paperwallet and
is then loaded with digital bitcoin it will be thus be transformed in to a
Physical Bitcoin coin.
Example...an unloaded Casascius..would become a Physical Bitcoin coin once
loaded.

To me...the definition of a physical bitcoin coin is when a coin has digital btc loaded into
it..ex...Casascius.
     Physical Bitcoin card ..ex...Bitbills.

  Conversely , a Physical Bitcoin coin  peeled and swept will transform into a Bitcoin token.


  
Hologram..security hologram concealing private key but allowing partial or
full public key to be exposed thru hologram.

Firsbits...partial first 5 to 6. Letters or numbers exposed from paper
wallet public key..allowing user to verify loading of coin using blockchain.

Prefork loaded ..loaded before Aug 1st 2017 and containing all coins after
the fork.

Post fork loaded...does not contain all the forked coins the prefork coins
have.

Chip...Physical or Bitcoin token resembles a poker chip in the way its made.

Wallet Cards (NFC, scratch off, security hologram) - physical plastic wallets in card form such as BitBills.

Paper Wallet - while a generic term, paper wallets like Poly and Suisse etc are their own thing too.  Huh

(Physical)Crypto Art- art containing keys such as cryptoart.com collectibles and cryptografitti works

Cold Storage coins - self explanatory

Physical Crypto Bars- Casascius, Kialara, Finite By Design, BigTimeSpaghetti, CoinPlus

Hardware Wallets? Not sure if it fits what you’re looking for

Hardware Wallet Cards- Gox, Mycelium etc

Crypto hardware Yubikeys - Gox etc

Crypto Bullion - self explanatory

Commemorative Bitcoin coins - reaching probably here / same as token maybe  


- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC) or Virgin BTC
 

 
  
 




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krogothmanhattan
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April 21, 2019, 01:27:28 AM
 #2

Reserved....

Let the fireworks start Wink

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April 21, 2019, 02:30:45 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2019, 04:40:16 AM by wheelz1200
 #3

I always consider post fork as meaning loaded after the bcash fork.  I dont specify which other forks are included, so to make it easy, prefork contains bcash postfork does not.

Edit: and for coin I wouldn't say it's used as money rather a collectable which may or may not contain a specific amount of bitcoin since none of these coins are used as a monetary unit.




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April 21, 2019, 04:29:34 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2019, 12:49:40 PM by ChiBitCTy
 #4

I agree with Wheelz, as shit as shit coins come..bcash is the only fork worth “caring about”.

Wallet Cards (NFC, scratch off, security hologram) - physical plastic wallets in card form such as BitBills.

Paper Wallet - while a generic term, paper wallets like Poly and Suisse etc are their own thing too.  Huh

(Physical)Crypto Art- art containing keys such as cryptoart.com collectibles and cryptografitti works

Cold Storage coins - self explanatory

Physical Crypto Bars- Casascius, Kialara, Finite By Design, BigTimeSpaghetti, CoinPlus

Hardware Wallets? Not sure if it fits what you’re looking for

Hardware Wallet Cards- Gox, Mycelium etc

Crypto hardware Yubikeys - Gox etc

Crypto Bullion - self explanatory

Commemorative Bitcoin coins - reaching probably here / same as token maybe  


Will continue this list as I think of stuff (disclaimer -this list may be pure shit..I just kinda went for it lol). Man I’m a nerd.
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April 21, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
 #5

I refer to loaded items like Casascius or Lealana as coins and unloaded like the Killyou Koinz as Tokens or Medals.  Similar to regular coins/rounds ; if they have a denomination  it is a coin, if it is private issue it is a round.

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April 21, 2019, 11:38:59 AM
Last edit: April 21, 2019, 04:08:31 PM by DaveF
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 #6

Breached or possibly breached - Any coin listed on your thread about them. Don't know if there is a better explanation then that. We all know what it means, but there is no hard and fast rule about it.

ShitcoinForks - Same as above. There is no standard, usually means loaded after the Aug 1 2017 BCH fork but before the Oct 24 2017 BTG fork.
However different people see it differently and "all shit forks" means pre Aug 1. We should probably come up with a standard at least within the forum.
Even I am forced to check when someone posts. I am now actively bidding on something that was listed as "Has all the shitforks" but was loaded Dec 11th 2017 which means no BTG, BCX, BTD. I really don't care, but someone else who did not check the date is was loaded might.

And we might want to use something other then the word shit.

-Dave




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April 21, 2019, 01:23:25 PM
 #7

Some more thoughts:

Buyer funded / seller funded. I think we all know what they mean but a clear hard line might be good. Not sure if it matters but:

krogoth makes a coin. It's a 1BTC sells it for unfunded for .1BTC
If it ships to me and I put 1BTC that's buyer funded.
If it pay 1.1BTC and it ships to me that is seller funded.
If I pay .1BTC to krogoth and send 1BTC to an address that was given is that buyer or seller funded? Logic would dictate that it's buyer funded I put the funds on.
Now before it ships wheelz1200 sends me a PM saying I'll give you 1.2BTC for it (thanks wheelz) and krogoth ships it.

A year later that coin goes up for sale.
Is it buyer funded or self funded or just plain funded?
Where do we draw the line? Do we care?
Down the road will it matter?


Complete / incomplete. A lot of times coins come with stuff. Take a look at my failed auction here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125972
It has the coin, the holos, the bag, the stand, the sticker. Is it complete? It does not have the envelope with the logo that ravenbit shipped the coins in.(I have since found it but that's another story) But at what point does it matter / make a difference. But I do know that I will bid a bit more if it has all the stuff. [BitcoinPenny Doodles are a good example]

-Dave






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April 21, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
Last edit: April 21, 2019, 02:06:11 PM by minerjones
Merited by yogg (1), DaveF (1)
 #8

I know the Encyclopedia of Bitcoins has a section about these definitions Cheesy
Maybe check them out and compare/contrast.

EDIT:

"Is it buyer funded or self funded or just plain funded?"

Why does it matter who funded a coin?
The only thing that matters is who made the keys....  that's it..

The whole thing with "Buyer Funded" was just a work around for coin makers... thus just adding the confusion


EDIT 2:
Thanks DaveF for the post below...  +1 Merit .... I am out for now

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April 21, 2019, 01:58:10 PM
Merited by yogg (1)
 #9

I know the Encyclopedia of Bitcoins has a section about these definitions Cheesy
Maybe check them out and compare/contrast.

EDIT:

"Is it buyer funded or self funded or just plain funded?"

Why does it matter who funded a coin?
The only thing that matters is who made the keys....  that's it..

The whole thing with "Buyer Funded" was just a work around for coin makers... thus just adding the confusion

I am going to have to disagree with you on that a least a bit.

I have been buying from you / trading with you for a while. What if it turns out that Mantis coins that you were funding were coming from BTC that you had stolen?
(Yes I know you are not a crook and you are not funding coins it's just an example) But it might matter down the road. It's easy to say it's like cash. But we all know it's not.
I know that if I have to peel & redeem the coins that I funded I know more or less whe-re it came from (mining / exchanges). For the BTC that I buy and sell stuff with it's very fast and loose. Sell some hardware, buy some coins, sell some other collectables buy some others, whatever. For the coins I have bought loaded it's a bit more fuzzy.

What happens if it turns out that CryptoImperator (just picking another coin maker out of thin air) was actually laundering money for a crime ring? You sent him your nice clean coins, he loaded the coin he sent you with some extortion BTC do you care?

This is probably taking this WAY off of where krogothmanhattan wanted but it is something to think about.

-Dave




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April 21, 2019, 03:29:10 PM
 #10

One thing that would always help the newbies and even others would be when anyone posts the coin for sale, I know they put seller funded/Buyer Funded, but very often it happens where I don't see if it's actually funded or not. If they can clearly say if it's funded with so and so amount. or simply that it is not funded, so we know if we are bidding on loaded or unloaded coin.

I actually bought couple of coins because of that confusion and turned out they weren't funded, but didn't wanted to argue or return to seller since I should have done more research and ask questions.

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April 22, 2019, 01:03:19 PM
Last edit: April 23, 2019, 05:09:59 PM by krogothmanhattan
 #11

Edit: and for coin I wouldn't say it's used as money rather a collectable which may or may not contain a specific amount of bitcoin since none of these coins are used as a monetary unit.

   I look at Bitcoin as a currency and thus when Bitbills and Casascius made their idea of Bitcoin into Physical Bitcoins it was not just as collectables but I assume also a way to trade Bitcoin in person without have to register its transaction on Blockchain. Also Casascius wanted to educate people on making it easier for them to understand it in physical form when for some it was hard to grasp Bitcoin in digital format.

   And yes these have turned out as collectables as well, so have Fiat currency coins, they are both collectable items and real currencycoins as well.


Breached or possibly breached - Any coin listed on your thread about them. Don't know if there is a better explanation then that. We all know what it means, but there is no hard and fast rule about it.

ShitcoinForks - Same as above. There is no standard, usually means loaded after the Aug 1 2017 BCH fork but before the Oct 24 2017 BTG fork.
However different people see it differently and "all shit forks" means pre Aug 1. We should probably come up with a standard at least within the forum.
Even I am forced to check when someone posts. I am now actively bidding on something that was listed as "Has all the shitforks" but was loaded Dec 11th 2017 which means no BTG, BCX, BTD. I really don't care, but someone else who did not check the date is was loaded might.

And we might want to use something other then the word shit.

-Dave

Agree Dave...I wouldnt trust what is written on a sale or auction. I would always check the loading date when it comes to this.
             But then again, I wouldnt be bidding on any coin with the other coins in mind as they are not part of any survivor equation
             that I think will be around in the future. When I bid only keep BTC in mind and not the rest. But still a good point.As they
             say in Latin caveat emptor, buyer beware...do your due diligence. ALWAYS.
            
             Agree...the word shit not be used. Perhaps we should just say has Bitcoin and all the other forked BTC versions instead.

 

Some more thoughts:
Buyer funded / seller funded. I think we all know what they mean but a clear hard line might be good. Not sure if it matters but:

krogoth makes a coin. It's a 1BTC sells it for unfunded for .1BTC
If it ships to me and I put 1BTC that's buyer funded.
If it pay 1.1BTC and it ships to me that is seller funded.
If I pay .1BTC to krogoth and send 1BTC to an address that was given is that buyer or seller funded? Logic would dictate that it's buyer funded I put the funds on.


-Dave


        Great points. I think it depends on what level of a collector you see yourself on accepting in your collection.

        If for example I had to choose a Casascius coin loaded by Mike himself or a Cas coin loaded by someone else, I would choose the one by Mike.

        For instance, many people were not aware of loadiing dates either until Monkeynuts posted the auction a few weeks back. As a collector I was always

        looking at loading dates alongside the condition. I would not want to buy a 2011 coin loaded in  2012. Most people dont care. I do.

        I am also a philatelist and in that hobby, there are stamps have what we call CTO, cancelled to order. This is when the post office cancels the stamp

       with a fancy cancel and the stamp and envelope never goes to its destination but rather given to the collector directly. It is used.

        As a die hard stamp collector I would buy the one that was genuinly cancelled and sent thru the mail rather than CTO which is geared for collectors.

       SO it all on how you want to build your collection. I am very conscious of these little things that make the world of a difference for me., but maybe not for

        others.

      
One thing that would always help the newbies and even others would be when anyone posts the coin for sale, I know they put seller funded/Buyer Funded, but very often it happens where I don't see if it's actually funded or not. If they can clearly say if it's funded with so and so amount. or simply that it is not funded, so we know if we are bidding on loaded or unloaded coin.

I actually bought couple of coins because of that confusion and turned out they weren't funded, but didn't wanted to argue or return to seller since I should have done more research and ask questions.

    Agrawas...alway always...check for yourself. Very easy to do. And yes the seller should say loaded or unloaded, but they can also make mistakes.
              Again buyer beware.  Same thing goes for coin makers who have been breached or have shady reps...should that be included in the OP?
              Example, Alitin coin...if a loaded coin comes up like it has on Ebay, I think the seller shouldve mentioned the coin maker had a major breach.
              But he didnt even though I POINTED IT OUT to him. You find honest people and dishonest. Again like to todl Dave F, Caveat Emptor!

              I made the thread that is pinned to the top of our collectable section to make newbies aware of what is out there as I dont think its fair they do not  know. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

              Great posts by everyone, Thankyou!  Will update the OP with more definitions!

        
        

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April 22, 2019, 01:40:21 PM
 #12


"Is it buyer funded or self funded or just plain funded?"

Why does it matter who funded a coin?
The only thing that matters is who made the keys....  that's it..

The whole thing with "Buyer Funded" was just a work around for coin makers... thus just adding the confusion

I think you mean coinfusion

coinfusion
//kɔɪnˈfjuːʒ(ə)n/

1. Doubt, lack of clarity or uncertainty about what is happening, intended or required, relating specifically to physical crypto coins.

P.S love the initiative Grin
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April 23, 2019, 02:31:41 AM
 #13

korns = Bitcoin

I really like this ideas and will definitely add some more after I read through everyone elses.

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April 23, 2019, 12:11:57 PM
 #14

Another thought, and I have to have to think it but there is at times significant dollar value attached to some of these things. Should there be a standard description for original owner / re-sale coins. And where they have been.

I have a 1 oz Silver Gold-plated 1 BTC Lealana Bitcoin. It's mine, I bought it straight from smoothie I sent funding to the address that smoothie sent me. If I sell it to you and there is an issue with the funding there is a short list of where it happened. With security holos not being perfect and with a real fiat value being attached to BTC there is a real risk of people being scummy. Think about it BTC goes back to over $15k usd. I decide to be evil, I can probably replicate the hologram for under $2500 for a perfect copy. I pull the private key and put it back.

I sell it for BTC1.25 here. And wait 90 days. I then pull the BTC / BCH / every other fork. There is a good chain of custody smoothie --> me --> you. You might not win in court but you would have a good case against me. That is IF you actually notice. How often do you check the loads on your coins?

Take the auction I am bidding on now. I don't know if Lesbian Cow the original owner. If not how many hands did this coin pass through? It's been graded, if some really dishonest person was working at any of the grading houses they might have ROLLS of copies of all the holograms of the popular manufacturers and have a notebook filled with private keys. Next time BTC passes $20k they are living in a tropical paradise in a country with no extradition.

I hate having to think about this but every I buy I funded coin this goes through my brain.

So back to the original thought of this post. Do we need a term for chain of custody of the coins that are / can be loaded?
 
-Dave




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April 23, 2019, 12:34:44 PM
 #15

- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC)
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April 23, 2019, 12:47:33 PM
 #16

- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC)

I have also heard this called "virgin bitcoin"

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April 23, 2019, 01:35:44 PM
 #17

Another thought, and I have to have to think it but there is at times significant dollar value attached to some of these things. Should there be a standard description for original owner / re-sale coins. And where they have been.

I have a 1 oz Silver Gold-plated 1 BTC Lealana Bitcoin. It's mine, I bought it straight from smoothie I sent funding to the address that smoothie sent me. If I sell it to you and there is an issue with the funding there is a short list of where it happened. With security holos not being perfect and with a real fiat value being attached to BTC there is a real risk of people being scummy. Think about it BTC goes back to over $15k usd. I decide to be evil, I can probably replicate the hologram for under $2500 for a perfect copy. I pull the private key and put it back.

I sell it for BTC1.25 here. And wait 90 days. I then pull the BTC / BCH / every other fork. There is a good chain of custody smoothie --> me --> you. You might not win in court but you would have a good case against me. That is IF you actually notice. How often do you check the loads on your coins?

Take the auction I am bidding on now. I don't know if Lesbian Cow the original owner. If not how many hands did this coin pass through? It's been graded, if some really dishonest person was working at any of the grading houses they might have ROLLS of copies of all the holograms of the popular manufacturers and have a notebook filled with private keys. Next time BTC passes $20k they are living in a tropical paradise in a country with no extradition.

I hate having to think about this but every I buy I funded coin this goes through my brain.

So back to the original thought of this post. Do we need a term for chain of custody of the coins that are / can be loaded?
 
-Dave

  Good point..in other words Provenance=the place of origin or earliest known history of something.

  I like the idea very much..but what if you find people whom do not wish it to be known they were the sellers of such coin?

  And the idea of sending any of my coins to be graded was never high in my list of things to do.

  a) Do not trust the postal system to deliver
  b) Do not trust the grading that much after I saw them grade a killyou, satori chips and fake coins.
  c) And now this that you bring up. Which is an excellent point! The more hands a coin has seen the better the chances of an issue of a breach. As far fetched as that may sound, its always a possibility.


 
- Redeemed / Peeled / Swept
- SHA-256 Private Key
- Mintage
- DIY
- GILT
- COA / Certificate of Authenticity
- Grading Services (ANACS / ICG)
- Freshly Minted Bits (BTCC)

I have also heard this called "virgin bitcoin"

   Yes virgin coin as in BTCC coins which I think are so unique in that aspect making them stand out for that feature of having freshly Minted/Virgin coins!

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April 24, 2019, 11:13:58 AM
Last edit: April 24, 2019, 03:55:44 PM by DaveF
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #18

I like the idea very much..but what if you find people whom do not wish it to be known they were the sellers of such coin?

Then they would run the risk of getting less for the coin.

2 identical coins go up.

One is like mine smoothie --> Me
The other is smoothie --> Them --> grading house --> someone else --> MJ doing the auction for them so they can remain unknown.

To some people having it graded is going to be worth more, to others knowing only 2 people have touched it is worth more.

-Dave
 




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April 25, 2019, 03:14:55 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #19

More ramblings.
What is a limited edition? / Low production?
100? 1000? 10000? 1000000?
There are 7 billion+ people in the world. If I make 10K or 100k or 10 million of something that everyone wants it's all a limited edition.
Crypto collectables is a much smaller pool, but once again as a small sampling of the group we might want to start coming up with our own standard of what is limited. 50? 100?

Might be worth a discussion.

-Dave




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April 25, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
 #20

More ramblings.
What is a limited edition? / Low production?
100? 1000? 10000? 1000000?
There are 7 billion+ people in the world. If I make 10K or 100k or 10 million of something that everyone wants it's all a limited edition.
Crypto collectables is a much smaller pool, but once again as a small sampling of the group we might want to start coming up with our own standard of what is limited. 50? 100?

Might be worth a discussion.

-Dave

  Great point!  What defines rare?

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