[2019-04-26] CNBC: Bitcoin price falls on NY AG Bitfinex probe

[figmentofmyass]

Reading between the lines, I reckon that this fud had the real purpose of trying to damage Tether and USDT. How politically influencial are the Winklevoss brothers in New York? They might want the whole Tether stablecoin market conquered by their own Gemini stablecoin.

judging by their unsuccessful attempts at getting an ETF approved, they have no influence. their competitors (in the regulated exchange, stablecoin, and institutional spaces) are wall street players so i don't see them getting very far.

Also, why is no one mentioning of the fraud that Cryptocapital did to Bitfinex? Will the New York attorney general also investigate that?

it's certainly possible the money was seized. if so then the NYAG already knows about it. this may have been related to the bank seizure in poland last year. 400m euros were seized from an account believed to be connected to crypto capital and bitfinex: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3272133.msg34115786#msg34115786

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[bbc.reporter]

@figmentofmyass. How about Goldman Sachs, which has an investment in Circle, which also owns Poloniex and has issued its own stablecoin USDC?

There is also JPMorgan that will be releasing its own coin which might be another stablecoin. I reckon the 2 of them have the political influence in New York to use to attack Tether.

[Kakmakr]

We were crucified many years ago, when we spoke out against these so-called StableCoins and now it is coming back to bite people in the ass. Yes, the US regulators might be over reacting and Bitfinex might not be doing half of the things that is rumoured, but the downfall of these StableCoins was predicted from the start.

You cannot trust Banks with large amounts of Fiat currencies that are linked to their competition. <Crypto currencies> and if you look deeper into this, you will see that the Banks are behind this whole thing. <Blocking access to funds>  

[IconFirm]

We were crucified many years ago, when we spoke out against these so-called StableCoins and now it is coming back to bite people in the ass. Yes, the US regulators might be over reacting and Bitfinex might not be doing half of the things that is rumoured, but the downfall of these StableCoins was predicted from the start.

You cannot trust Banks with large amounts of Fiat currencies that are linked to their competition. <Crypto currencies> and if you look deeper into this, you will see that the Banks are behind this whole thing. <Blocking access to funds>  

Exactly this. The whole idea of crypto is to alleviate ourselves of banks & their stranglehold on our funds. Crypto goes against everything banks stand for, so when a bank gets involved you know it is for nefarious reasons - greed, control or both. Anything that has bank backing should be considered untrusted, especially exchanges & these so called BS "stablecoins".

[Betwrong]

~
Bitcoin will obviously stay, but there are close to 2.9 billion Tether tokens in circulation; if that exits the market entirely, we're going to take a massive plunge ~

Can you, or maybe someone else, please, explain in more detail how the disappearance of Tether can affect the current Bitcoin price in a negative way? I mean, traders can use other stable coins if they like them so much, right?

Also, considering the current total market cap, $170 billion, how disappearance of $3 billion worth of tokens can affect the market significantly?

What am I missing here?

[1Referee]

Can you, or maybe someone else, please, explain in more detail how the disappearance of Tether can affect the current Bitcoin price in a negative way? I mean, traders can use other stable coins if they like them so much, right?

Tether is by far the most dominant stablecoin in the market. The few other stablecoins don't have the economical mass and adoption needed to support the market.

From the 2.8 billion tokens it has in circulation, more than half of that is being used to rotate through Bitcoin exchanges providing a lot of buy support. It's also money that will not be cashed out because of how distributed it is amongst traders world wide. The only way to cash out is to suck off Bitfinex, and who's going to do that nowadays? They probably don't even have the fiat left to actually allow you to withdraw fiat.

In other words, people just sit on their USDT hoping for a dump to buy Bitcoin, and this is basically a never ending cycle.

Also, considering the current total market cap, $170 billion, how disappearance of $3 billion worth of tokens can affect the market significantly?

What am I missing here?

The total crypto market cap is fake and extremely leveraged. Fake as in the far majority of the altcoins having huge market caps due to their billions of circulating units, and leveraged because of how a little amount of money can pump this market to the moon, because it's super illiquid.

Bitfinex in the past has shown that a 50-100 million USDT injection is enough to pump the price with 10% and that was when the price hovered above $6000. What it meant for Bitcoin was that 50-100 million USDT was enough to increase its market cap with +$10 billion. And as you know, Bitcoin up = altcoins up, so that inflates the global market cap even further.

[gentlemand]

https://decryptmedia.com/6759/crypto-capital-quadrigacx-bitfinex

This is an interesting read about Crypto Capital. Their MO has basically consisted of opening bank accounts and not telling the banks they're dealing with crypto-related funds. Not exactly sustainable and the type of thing I might risk a few thousand dollars on, not hundreds of millions.

[bbc.reporter]

@gentlemand. Bitfinex had no choice, however. Their banking partners of the past always relieved themselves and stopped further dealings with Bitfinex to avoid being the target of regulators.

@1Referee. Would you say that a direct attack on Tether is an indirect attack on bitcoin and the cryptospace market?

[figmentofmyass]

@figmentofmyass. How about Goldman Sachs, which has an investment in Circle, which also owns Poloniex and has issued its own stablecoin USDC?

There is also JPMorgan that will be releasing its own coin which might be another stablecoin. I reckon the 2 of them have the political influence in New York to use to attack Tether.

maybe but honestly, i don't think it's a conspiracy. i think they just see the writing on the wall and plan to swoop in on tether's market share when the feds eventually take them down. it's only a matter of time. they're mixed up with drug cartels and hide everything they do behind shell companies with zero transparency.

i'm not sure the NYAG can do much, but the launch of CFTC-regulated futures markets put bitfinex/tether in the sights of the CFTC and DOJ, who are investigating them as we speak.

[Betwrong]

~
The total crypto market cap is fake and extremely leveraged. Fake as in the far majority of the altcoins having huge market caps due to their billions of circulating units ~

This is what I could never understand completely. If most altcoins have fake market caps (some people are saying that you can assign just any market cap to your shitcoin), then why the coins from top 20, such as BTC, ETH, BCH, LTC, XRP, DASH and XMR, constitute over 80% of the total crypto market cap, while all the others, 2,100+ alts, add up to less than 20%?

I'm not trying to say, you are wrong. It's just the whole thing seems pretty strange to me.

[gentlemand]

@gentlemand. Bitfinex had no choice, however. Their banking partners of the past always relieved themselves and stopped further dealings with Bitfinex to avoid being the target of regulators.

Then they should either have knuckled down and gone as legit as possible, or given up dealing with fiat altogether.

Continuing down this shonky path was always going to wind up raping them and everyone touched by them, which is everyone in crypto, and it's happened yet again. Either they're deluded, autistic or plain thick.

A five year old reading how Crypto Capital operate wouldn't deposit their pocket money with them. That type of amateurishness and gormless dishonesty doesn't cut it any more.

[1Referee]

This is what I could never understand completely. If most altcoins have fake market caps (some people are saying that you can assign just any market cap to your shitcoin), then why the coins from top 20, such as BTC, ETH, BCH, LTC, XRP, DASH and XMR, constitute over 80% of the total crypto market cap, while all the others, 2,100+ alts, add up to less than 20%?

I'm not trying to say, you are wrong. It's just the whole thing seems pretty strange to me.

It's because of Coinmarketcap gets rid of them. You refer to +2100 alts, but there are over 10,000 in reality. 2100 is only what Coinmarketcap allows you to see.

I'm not exactly sure what the name of the coin was, but one coin ended up seeing its market cap surpass $2000 billion, but with a volume of $30,000 in the last 24 hours. Coinmarketcap delisted it from their platform because of how obvious the manipulation was. Right now if you haven't got x amount of volume to justify a certain market cap, they will delist you.

Projects have gotten more cautious because being delisted from Coinmarketcap very likely means the end of your project.

[figmentofmyass]

@gentlemand. Bitfinex had no choice, however. Their banking partners of the past always relieved themselves and stopped further dealings with Bitfinex to avoid being the target of regulators.

Then they should either have knuckled down and gone as legit as possible, or given up dealing with fiat altogether.

Continuing down this shonky path was always going to wind up raping them and everyone touched by them, which is everyone in crypto, and it's happened yet again. Either they're deluded, autistic or plain thick. 

i suppose giving up fiat wasn't really an option for tether. if a fiat-backed stablecoin had no fiat liquidity, that would eliminate their whole reason for existence. as for going legit, i don't think they had the capital to get properly licensed. so their legal counsel always kept them on the very edge of legality. (and i've no doubt they've engaged in fraud to keep bank transfers flowing)

in that sense, i agree with those who say tether = the downfall of bitfinex. bitfinex looked like they were going full shitcoin in 2017. they were listing endless altcoin markets and for months they couldn't process fiat withdrawals to retail customers at all, so fiat holders were exiting via crypto. but tether was being printed endlessly---seemingly corporate bank wires were flowing but not retail.

now we got $850m frozen already with fiat flow from bitfinex already at snail's pace. and now there's 3 billion tethers floating out there! i think we are all getting the feeling that banks/governments are clamping down on crypto exchanges and ramping up AML compliance efforts. this just seems bad all around considering how much exposure there is to tether. it feels like there's a black cloud over the market, waiting to open up on us......

[bbc.reporter]

@figmentofmyass. How about Goldman Sachs, which has an investment in Circle, which also owns Poloniex and has issued its own stablecoin USDC?

There is also JPMorgan that will be releasing its own coin which might be another stablecoin. I reckon the 2 of them have the political influence in New York to use to attack Tether.

maybe but honestly, i don't think it's a conspiracy. i think they just see the writing on the wall and plan to swoop in on tether's market share when the feds eventually take them down. it's only a matter of time. they're mixed up with drug cartels and hide everything they do behind shell companies with zero transparency.

i'm not sure the NYAG can do much, but the launch of CFTC-regulated futures markets put bitfinex/tether in the sights of the CFTC and DOJ, who are investigating them as we speak.

Agreed, only another business decision to kill the competition by the ruling class and the politically connected with the help of a corrupt government hehehe.

I stand for Bitfinex to win this case. It will be good for the freedom of the cryptospace and Bitfinex is the lesser evil compared to JPMorgan or Goldman Sachs. I hope some people know this and do not listen to too much mainstream media.

[gentlemand]

I stand for Bitfinex to win this case. It will be good for the freedom of the cryptospace and Bitfinex is the lesser evil compared to JPMorgan or Goldman Sachs. I hope some people know this and do not listen to too much mainstream media.

I would have a lot more sympathy for Bitfinex if they hadn't repeatedly lied and obfuscated wherever possible. There is nothing virtuous about them. They've been consistent assholes. Maybe that was necessary to keep going. If it were and I were running it I'd put an asshole disclaimer on the site.

i suppose giving up fiat wasn't really an option for tether. if a fiat-backed stablecoin had no fiat liquidity, that would eliminate their whole reason for existence. as for going legit, i don't think they had the capital to get properly licensed. so their legal counsel always kept them on the very edge of legality. (and i've no doubt they've engaged in fraud to keep bank transfers flowing)

Since Bitfinex and Tether are the same bunch they could've funded every licence in the solar system. Bitfinex have had money pouring out of their arse at various points. It would be interesting to see if they actually could make Tether fully legit. They probably concluded it either wasn't possible or suited their purposes not to be.

[bbc.reporter]

@gentlemand. I agree, however, between Bitfinex and the big banks JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs which might be the hidden executors behind this case, I choose Bitfinex to win. It would send a message that the cryptospace will not be impaired by them with all their political power and connections.

[gentlemand]

@gentlemand. I agree, however, between Bitfinex and the big banks JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs which might be the hidden executors behind this case, I choose Bitfinex to win. It would send a message that the cryptospace will not be impaired by them with all their political power and connections.

The principle would be cool but it's utterly, utterly doomed. It would be as hopeless as Goldman Sachs attempting to sue Bitcoin. It's not their territory, they have no control and they'd certainly have no hope.

Every time more detail emerges about all this some service linked to BFX turns out to be breaking a law or getting arrested. It's pitiful.

So far it's mainly third parties doing this to them. They should've been a little brighter about who they do business with, or not done business at all.

[Betwrong]

~
It's because of Coinmarketcap gets rid of them. You refer to +2100 alts, but there are over 10,000 in reality. 2100 is only what Coinmarketcap allows you to see.

True, but when we are talking about the total crypto market cap, $175 billion currently, we are talking about the sum of market caps of all the coins listed on CMC, right? We don't take all those 10,000 other coins into account.

Right now if you haven't got x amount of volume to justify a certain market cap, they will delist you.

Projects have gotten more cautious because being delisted from Coinmarketcap very likely means the end of your project.

Exactly. And that's why I think that currently we can say that market caps of coins listed on CMC are more or less correspond to reality.

And, I'm sorry, but I still don't understand, how disappearance of $3 billion worth of tokens(USDT) can affect the market($175 billion) significantly?

[gentlemand]

And, I'm sorry, but I still don't understand, how disappearance of $3 billion worth of tokens(USDT) can affect the market($175 billion) significantly?

Because USDT is doubly powerful. Every time it's created it's newly injected money and it's 'actual' money, not market cap which means nothing anyway.

[figmentofmyass]

And, I'm sorry, but I still don't understand, how disappearance of $3 billion worth of tokens(USDT) can affect the market($175 billion) significantly?

Because USDT is doubly powerful. Every time it's created it's newly injected money and it's 'actual' money, not market cap which means nothing anyway.

yep, $3 billion being added to or subtracted from the total market cap is negligible. it's more about the fact that the crypto spot markets are so thin. pumping a billion tether dollars into these thin order books could raise the total market cap by hundreds of billions.