Don't over-create Trust Appeals; keep minds/ emotions stable. No more Red

[btcsmlcmnr]

Getting Red Trust and negative feedbacks are among the worst things that one user can get in the forum, just behind getting nuked, permanent bans, temporary bans, and signature bans for years. In the topic, I don't go to discussions on other issues, this one is only focused on Trust Appeals.

Trust system created with original purposes to deal with exchange/ trade issues in the forum. Scammers tend to scam around and steal money from naiive users, so it's why Trust system created to prevent them scam forum members from time to time. DT members are responsible for this task when they found them or see reports from community.

However, DT members are human, and they can make mistakes, so sometimes they can use their roles and feedbacks inappropriately. It means sometimes Trust system get broken due to inappropriate feedbacks of DT members. Theymos stated about that clearly here:

I do not view it as appropriate for trust ratings to relate primarily to non-trust matters. By giving someone negative trust, you're basically attaching a note to all of their posts telling people "warning: do not trade with this person!". If we can get DT working well enough, in the future I'd like to prevent guests from even viewing topics by negative-trust users in trust-enabled sections, so you have to ask yourself whether your negative trust would warrant this sort of significant effect.

In particular, in my view:
 - Giving negative trust for being an annoying poster is inappropriate, since this has nothing to do with their trustworthiness. If they're disrupting discussion or never adding anything, then that's something for moderators to deal with, and you should report their posts and/or complain in Meta about it.
 - Giving negative trust for merit trading and deceptive alt-account use may be appropriate, but you should use a light touch so that people don't feel paranoid.
 - You should be willing to forgive past mistakes if the person seems unlikely to do it again.
 - It is absolutely not appropriate to give someone negative trust because you disagree with them. I'm disappointed in the reaction to this post. Although H8bussesNbicycles is perhaps not particularly trustworthy for other reasons, the reasons many people gave for neg-trusting him are inappropriate. You can argue that what he's advocating is bad on a utilitarian level, but he would disagree, and his advocacy of a certain Trust philosophy doesn't by itself mean that he's an untrustworthy person. DT selection is meant to be affected by user lists, and it is totally legitimate to try to honestly convince other (real) people to use a list more in-line with your views.

If you read all the quote, and notice well, you should see that theymos emphasized:

- You should be willing to forgive past mistakes if the person seems unlikely to do it again.

Therefore, you (Red-trusted guys) can always have chances to see your negative feedbacks removed someday.
- When you changed and DT members as well as forum members actually accept and verify your changes. This procedure takes time, months or years, but it is worthy if you really want to stay here, and actually changed, not pseudo changed to lift your negative feedbacks, then back to work of scamming other victims.
- When your negative feedbacks come from mistakes/ misusages of DT members. Sometimes, they left negative feedbacks due to disagree with someone on support projects that they think like scam projects (such as Bitcoin Cash). You can open your 'Trust Appeal' and wait to see it solved.

DON'Ts
Unfortunately, most of times, when someone open their Trust Appeals, minutes, hours, days or weeks later, their Negative trust points move to new all time highs. Why?

• They usually try to attack or troll all DT members
• They have unstable emotions and posting habits after open Trust Appeals
• They don't honestly admit their mistakes
• They try to spread their appeals and complaints everywhere in the forum, around topics

DOs
Please don't do this if you think your negative trust is wrong because they all will boost your Red trust points higher very fastly. Your final goals to open Trust Appeal is to reduce or totally remove your trust points. So, please do following things:

• Open Trust Appeal {c}
• Prensent clearly what are your issues: Your mistakes (admit whichever things you honestly think they are your mistakes); DT members' mistakes (by leaving inappropriate feedbacks on your case)
• Showing proofs
• Waiting patiently to see how it goes {a}
• Bumping your Trust Appeals regularly, but not more than one time per 24 hours, and remember to delete previous bump {b}
• Whichever replies you received, please maintain your opinion, your emotions neutral and stable. Don't fluctuate them from side to side
• Discuss about your case only in a single Trust Appeal topic

There is the newest post of theymos about this issue.

There are aspects of the trust system that are clearly less than ideal, some of which are probably solvable (and some probably not). But caucusing with people who have very clear and serious questionable behavior isn't going to help you convince people of anything. Anduck had a good case for the trust system being broken. You (cryptohunter) might've had some case for the trust system being broken if you had handled your initial trust issues with rationality and patience instead of absolutely losing your mind and throwing lies around, and even now I could imagine your red trust eventually being cleared if you were able to attain a stable mindset. olcaytu2005 on the other hand hasn't even attempted to defend himself against the accusations (from several independent widely-trusted members, based on publicly-available data) of knowingly assisting scams, so he does not have a good case for the trust system being broken.

{a} TIME TO COOL DOWN
The key is don't hurry, don't angry too much. You need time to cool down, accept your mistakes (if you did); and DT members need time to cool down, and accept their mistakes (if they did).
Everything, and everyone have specific thresholds, beyond which will cause irreversible things. Over reacts will lead to being ignored (by Ignore buttons), and when it happens, no chance to see your negative feedbacks removed.

Maybe you are right at the fist place, but when you fall into angry, attack & trolling all, escalate things into 'Wars', you actually make real mistakes. Please don't do this.

Accept & admit your mistakes, make positively changes won't help you solve issues immediately or in short term. Because basic instinct of each person can not be changed within hours, days, months. So, your Trust Appeals take months or years to be solved (in case you actually did something wrong).

Forgiveness and de-escalation are key to getting Trust working smoothly:
 - Forgiveness: Often people make fairly small mistakes, but then they seemingly get red-trusted for life. This isn't really fair, and it discourages participation due to paranoia: if you think that you have a 1% chance of running afoul of some unwritten rule and getting red-trusted for life, you might just avoid the marketplace altogether. Red trust should mostly be based on an evaluation of what the person is likely to do in the future moreso than a punishment/mark-of-shame.
 - De-escalation: If some people end up locked in a feud where they're only really giving negative trust to each other in retaliation for negative trust, then one of them should propose burying the hatchet and removing the negative trust. Otherwise it never gets resolved, and everyone is worse-off for it.

Maybe your case will be solved after six months, maybe longer, like this:

Please review me in ½ year again. I am here to learn and improve.

{b} Bumping
Even the rule allows once bump for each 24 hours, but I think bumping its for every 24 hours is annoying. In my perspective, bump for each 7-day period is enough, and less annoying.

{c} Where to create Trust Appeal?
It is the Reputation child board. Most of users create their Trust Appeals in Meta board, that is wrong, because such things related to Trust don't relate to forum issues. Therefore, it is clearly not belong to Meta board.
Please create your Trust Appeal in Reputation child board

Ban appeal - How to make it right and reduce workload for forum staffs

[Your Point Is Invalid]

We have so many threads like this nowadays, people twerking for merits.

[theymos]

We have so many threads like this nowadays, people twerking for merits.

There are a lot of pointless "summarize something obvious" posts, but IMO btcsmlcmnr's summary added something.
Forgiveness and de-escalation are key to getting Trust working smoothly:
 - Forgiveness: Often people make fairly small mistakes, but then they seemingly get red-trusted for life. This isn't really fair, and it discourages participation due to paranoia: if you think that you have a 1% chance of running afoul of some unwritten rule and getting red-trusted for life, you might just avoid the marketplace altogether. Red trust should mostly be based on an evaluation of what the person is likely to do in the future moreso than a punishment/mark-of-shame.
 - De-escalation: If some people end up locked in a feud where they're only really giving negative trust to each other in retaliation for negative trust, then one of them should propose burying the hatchet and removing the negative trust. Otherwise it never gets resolved, and everyone is worse-off for it.

[TMAN]

- Forgiveness: Often people make fairly small mistakes, but then they seemingly get red-trusted for life. This isn't really fair, and it discourages participation due to paranoia: if you think that you have a 1% chance of running afoul of some unwritten rule and getting red-trusted for life, you might just avoid the marketplace altogether. Red trust should mostly be based on an evaluation of what the person is likely to do in the future moreso than a punishment/mark-of-shame.

Plenty of people are forgiven for small issues and as I saw you point out before CH is a prime example of someone who would of had tags removed after a few months of cooling down, but the verbal diarrhea that we end up reading ends up cementing the tags as accurate - I mean who would actually willing transact with that fool now?

 

[The Cryptovator]

We have so many threads like this nowadays, people twerking for merits.

There are a lot of pointless "summarize something obvious" posts, but IMO btcsmlcmnr's summary added something.

Look like OP just repeat the thread made by TalkStar, Proper way to get Apology, however I am agree with both OP since I always encourage people's just create thread with proper reason why are you thinking that your feedback's wrong and why it should remove. I am not saying DT's always will be 100% right. But creating argumentative thread and attack DT members is not proper way. It's the prevention of forgiveness for small mistake. Sometimes silence is better than violence. There is few case I have removed red trust once they sent me PM after long periods and almost they corrected themselves.

DT isn't for destroy accounts, DT is for warn users about scammers. So obviously there lot of considerable case those could be solved by proper way.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

We have so many threads like this nowadays, people twerking for merits.

Are they twerking in the right manner? If yes then I don't think they're any threat to the forum. Merit is a motivation to post right so if they're doing it right i don't see a problem with that. The twerking though is far better than sig spamming for pocket change so we all good, I guess.

Back to topic: The DT members are humans that means they too can get emotional. You attacking instead of appealing a DT member for tagging you when you're at fault would just attract more tags to your account that's what this guys fail to understand. And if it was a minor chase you now have more members to appeal your tagged which is already a lost battle. Appealing of red tagged preferably should be done privately and only brought to the public if you feel you're innocent or a victim  and the DT member that left you the tagged isn't responding to your appeal.

[TheNewAnon135246]

Good point. I have removed negative trust for minor "infractions" in the past.

I understand why DT members tag people who buy an account. In the past there have been numerous scam (attempts) where someone used a bought Hero/Legendary account to appear trusted and tried scamming people. If the buyer turns out to be someone who bought it for joining a signature campaign (without obvious farming/spamming) or bought it to bypass the newbie/junior account restrictions etc. the negative feedback should be removed imo.

[The-One-Above-All]

- Forgiveness: Often people make fairly small mistakes, but then they seemingly get red-trusted for life. This isn't really fair, and it discourages participation due to paranoia: if you think that you have a 1% chance of running afoul of some unwritten rule and getting red-trusted for life, you might just avoid the marketplace altogether. Red trust should mostly be based on an evaluation of what the person is likely to do in the future moreso than a punishment/mark-of-shame.

Plenty of people are forgiven for small issues and as I saw you point out before CH is a prime example of someone who would of had tags removed after a few months of cooling down, but the verbal diarrhea that we end up reading ends up cementing the tags as accurate - I mean who would actually willing transact with that fool now?

 

Your post is riddled with stupidity. The fact it has any merit at all demonstrates the stupidity and misleading nature of the merit system.

1. the system FAILS by allowing persons like cryptohunter to have ever been red tagged initially.

Let's analyse the situation.

Lauda come to cryptohunters threads and calls him a liar 3x each time Ch request the presentation of these lies. Lauda never presents any. Cryptohunter frustrated at this and KNOWING FULL WELL lauda had lied that he was on the xcoin (now dash) launch and there was no premine. A lie that cryptohunter and his friends later proved was a total lie which lauda was telling people because he had bags of darkcoin at that time (they altered the name), he was lying to entice more investors and hide the fact the project was almost completely centralized in terms of distribution and control. Later the dev offered a 2 000 000 000 USD value compensation air drop to the board to make up for the scamming start (they claimed fair launch no premine and then did a  huge captive instamine). Cryptohunter knew this because he WAS on the launch.

So all cryptohunter said to lauda was " if you keep calling me a liar with no evidence and will not present any then I will make a thread investigating your own past (because he knew he could demonstrate lauda lied and scammed)

1/Lauda then gives him red trust. (SO RED TRUST FOR WHISTLE BLOWING ON A LIAR AND SCAMMER??)

Cryptohunter then gets pissed of and starts presenting more observable instances about this and other DIRTY looking deeds from lauda.


2/Tman shows up and adds red trust, and we believe owlcatz did too (however it appears they removed it - looked like too much collusion otherwise ) Cryptohunter says to Tman. You can not leave me red trust for presenting facts and observable instances. Tman says " I can I will and I just have, if you don't like it......"

SO RED TRUST AGAIN FOR PRESENTING FACTS AND OBSERVABLE INSTANCES OF WRONG DOING.  He later pretends it is because of some foul language and swearing the pissed of cryptohunter laced in with his facts about lauda making him insane "apparently"

But when he starts spouting swearing and sexual deviance it is poetry ? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5138619.0
Demonstrates robovac will try to spin a positive light on anything his dumb pals say or do.

Cryptohunter then tells TMAN remove that red trust for presenting facts or else I'll just keep highlighting this trust abuse.

3/ Yogg another colluder who you notice shows up to back up much of their trust abuse then says

Is you use the words "or else" that is blackmail and extortion an he adds additional red trust.


We can observe there that red trust was being abused. Cryptohunter has NO NEED to be nice about it and apologize. The system failure is allowing it to be left for these reasons.

Scammers and those implicated in extortion and other financially motivated untrustworthy behaviors DO NOT get to use red trust to silence whistle blowing or crush free speech as they see fit. Blacklist these scum before they leverage their DT and green to do more damage.

The entire system is a sham.

Scammers / those that pose financial risk to this board should have red not walk around with 300 GREEN trust. It is disgusting and is leaving the entire board vulnerable to the very most dangerous.


Who would transact with cryptohunter?? Well since he  purchased nxt the day after launch, was an original nem stake holder, a launch day miner for the majority of wave 1 alts, picked 6 of the top 10 rising coins in the last wave and has threads started by others thanking him for his tips that turned them from nothing to millionaires. Then I guess that is not going to be much of a scam risk since he never bothered to buy or sell anything here and is already wealthy. Can you show even 1 instance of anywhere where cryptohunter has any financially motivated dirt on him?? NO because he always fights for others to have a fair shot at things.

Who would transact with TMAN? ran an auction through a proxy pal (another DT) and tried to talk the price up pretending it was not his auction. Phones someones parents up probably trying to extort them. Observably colluding with other scammers and trying to silence whistle blowers.  Would you give your address to someone that has apparently already tried to use this kind of information as leverage to extort btc out of them?  Well you might but some scum bag hiding in Bulgaria a place notorious for that type of person.

There can be no doubt that the PROBLEM here is not peoples attitudes after they have been trust abused and their free speech threatened. The PROBLEM is that it is permitted to be used as a weapon to control people free  speech and attitudes. If they are NOT scammers they do NOT GET red trust in the first place. We've heard rumors of people charging for getting red removed. Red trust if not used within STRICT guidelines is very dangerous for the board.

Anyone who can not present a strong case for FINANCIAL danger in the case of that MEMBER can NOT have red trust. If they can not present a case within 24 hours the are blacklisted from DT if the red still stay there.

The prevention of trust abuse is key. There is no point of all these appeals. People getting trust abused are going to kick off. After that point it just becomes a personal grudge on both sides.  

Theymos needs to make it clear. Give red trust to a person who you can not present is a scammer then you get black listed. In any other form DT is dangerous and poses grave risk to this board.

To be honest even ALLOWING people on DT1 who have any observable instances of clear financially motivated wrong doing should be black listed. You simply can not have scammers and extortionists on DT1. It is ridiculous.

[TMAN]

Above is on ignore but odds are, TMAN, Lauda, observable and facts are In the post.

Shame CH and alts are really fucking any chances as I will not remove any tags as my tags against CH are accurate. Total mental case

[The-One-Above-All]

Above is on ignore but odds are, TMAN, Lauda, observable and facts are In the post.

Shame CH and alts are really fucking any chances as I will not remove any tags as my tags against CH are accurate. Total mental case

Hence why you and other abusers need to be blacklisted. Presenting the truth about you and your dirt gang is not being a mental case.

Get back to your poetry.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5138619.0

[TMAN]

Truth, Observable, Lauda? 3 paragraphs? extortion?

how am I doing guys? need some feedback on how i'm interpreting this losers posts in the blind

[o_e_l_e_o]

Plenty of people are forgiven for small issues and as I saw you point out before CH is a prime example of someone who would of had tags removed after a few months of cooling down, but the verbal diarrhea that we end up reading ends up cementing the tags as accurate - I mean who would actually willing transact with that fool now?

I initially defended CH when he was first red tagged, and in response I got walls of ad hominem attacks and insults. I completely agree his ongoing immature behavior and trolling makes him far less trustworthy than his initial simple nonsensical posts ever did.

However, I still think that in cases like this we should all be reaching for the ignore button rather than negative trust. His behavior is driven by attention - deprive him of that, and he will stop. Too many people now have his original account on ignore, so he had to make a sockpuppet. Put that one on ignore too and let's all move on.

Speaking more generally, people who immediately start a thread and dish out abuse in retaliation for their red trust almost always end up with more. Take a break, take some time to cool off, and then come back and present a logical case. And as theymos has said, DT members should also be more willing to remove tags left for less serious issues.

[TMAN]

Plenty of people are forgiven for small issues and as I saw you point out before CH is a prime example of someone who would of had tags removed after a few months of cooling down, but the verbal diarrhea that we end up reading ends up cementing the tags as accurate - I mean who would actually willing transact with that fool now?

I initially defended CH when he was first red tagged, and in response I got walls of ad hominem attacks and insults. I completely agree his ongoing immature behavior and trolling makes him far less trustworthy than his initial simple nonsensical posts ever did.

However, I still think that in cases like this we should all be reaching for the ignore button rather than negative trust. His behavior is driven by attention - deprive him of that, and he will stop. Too many people now have his original account on ignore, so he had to make a sockpuppet. Put that one on ignore too and let's all move on.

Both are on ignore for me dude, but both tags are staying - people need to be aware how unhinged this member is, can you imaging innocently trying to sell something to them and having the deal go wrong? imagine a missing package? fuck me dude, what observable proof would the cunt want then? the fool would want to interview every postman at the postal service and want the passport and health numbers of everyone at the local customs office. Well fuck that, people need to know if someone is proper loopy, I see this as a public service

[o_e_l_e_o]

Both are on ignore for me dude, but both tags are staying - people need to be aware how unhinged this member is

Oh, I completely agree now. I just wonder where we might be if everyone had just ignored him when he first got started all those months ago, before he really flew off the handle. I suspect he might have given up and left a long time ago, and we could all be discussing more important issues like adults.

[AverageGlabella]

I agree with theymos points and I think a lot of people on the DefaultTrust list are looking at their role the wrong way. A few think they are doing good by squelching any sort of scam attempts by that user because they made some mistakes but really we should be looking at how you are impacting everyone including the member in question. People make mistakes and I can guarantee if we went through some of the DefaultTrust members history they would have made a mistake which could well have resulted in them on the negative list. DefaultTrust need to take a look at themselves and decide whether the greater good is always the best choice.

Speaking more generally, people who immediately start a thread and dish out abuse in retaliation for their red trust almost always end up with more. Take a break, take some time to cool off, and then come back and present a logical case. And as theymos has said, DT members should also be more willing to remove tags left for less serious issues.

Cryptohunter should probably be dealt with by the moderators as he constantly derails every single thread that he posts in. Including this one its now turned into a thread about him and there has been several low quality posts not just from him addressing it. Instead of constantly arguing over negative feedback consequences need to happen with constantly derailing threads. I'm personally sick of it because the majority of threads in reputation is about this incident and it even leaks into meta.

[El duderino_]

I have not been giving RED-trust myself to often, cause as its been said, you should only give real RED-trust when someone scam or attempted to scam you, and t'ill now as i'm mostly active in speculation there are not many trades been made, as i'm been active in collectibles as well and there I have been threaded only very well and every single trade went A+++ also those few months I have been active there, I didn't saw any single person being scammed....

I have saw some, rather to be more personal "beefs" perhaps with people disliking each other and giving some RED-trust to fast, maybe something for example; fatcatt giving RED-trust to Hhampuz for making "be your own bank" coins and calling it not original, this is IMO not worthy RED-trust giving and there are many more as these..

But as been said it would be good to expand the trust system a little for the forum, as only red trust for proved scamming, being not honest in a money involving trade.

There maybe could be an additional kind of rating with Spamming poster, or Annoying poster.

To keep the RED-GREEN trust more valuable for people that actually make trades for stuff....

[LoyceV]

DON'Ts
Unfortunately, most of times, when someone open their Trust Appeals, minutes, hours, days or weeks later, their Negative trust points move to new all time highs. Why?

• They usually try to attack or troll all DT members
• They have unstable emotions and posting habits after open Trust Appeals
• They don't honestly admit their mistakes
• They try to stick their appeals everywhere in the forum, around topics

There's a much easier explanation: they draw attention to themselves. And if the red trust is justified, getting DT-attention usually means collecting more red trust.

I just wonder where we might be if everyone had just ignored him when he first got started all those months ago

That's never going to happen on a big forum: by the time some users have given up responding to a troll, other users will notice it for the first time and try to reason with him again until they too give up and are replaced by someone else.

I have saw some, rather to be more personal "beefs" perhaps with people disliking each other and giving some RED-trust to fast

Maybe the ignore button should be labeled "I don't like this person".

- Forgiveness: Often people make fairly small mistakes, but then they seemingly get red-trusted for life. This isn't really fair, and it discourages participation due to paranoia

This forum indeed always feels like the smallest thing can get you red trust. I've been leaving more neutral trust, and encourage others to do the same.

[darklus123]

Add up to don'ts.  Don't create a new identity or a new account just to hide or to forget what had happen to you. Or you have done to this forum.

I've seen few known people who actually did this. Some of them even stated that they've wanted to change that is why they did it. Which is completely wrong isn't it?

[Vod]

That's never going to happen on a big forum: by the time some users have given up responding to a troll, other users will notice it for the first time and try to reason with him again until they too give up and are replaced by someone else.

Perfect example:   Flat Earth thread. Almost 800 pages of garbage!  The OP has every lie debunked a thousand times, but new users keep pointing out the same lies.

Why doesn't Theymos do his part and shut down obvious troll threads?

[xolxol]

Above is on ignore but odds are, TMAN, Lauda, observable and facts are In the post.

Shame CH and alts are really fucking any chances as I will not remove any tags as my tags against CH are accurate. Total mental case

Oh Godly TMAN,you are the best,the admin says forgive burry the shit.Now i know why you arent in theymo's trustlist because you're an adult with a brain of 6yearsold whom has a brain tumor.