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Author Topic: Taproot proposal  (Read 11256 times)
gmaxwell (OP)
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May 03, 2021, 12:35:48 AM
Last edit: May 03, 2021, 01:46:43 AM by gmaxwell
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), ABCbits (1)
 #221

although if the soft fork is confirmed you will need to upgrade before November when it activates to be safe

What happens if the soft fork is confirmed and I upgrade after November? Why is it unsafe?

In many prior activations at some point after the rules became active some broken miner managed to mine a rule violating block and some other miners who weren't broken but were just not updated yet produced blocks that continued after the invalid one.

Everyone who is updated, including correctly upgraded miners*, will just ignore those blocks like they never happened.  So the invalid block and its descendants will all become stale blocks.

If you aren't upgraded you may see confirmations that go away during such an events, and if you're a miner and not upgraded you will lose money by mining on a doomed fork during such an event.

If *many* people don't upgrade such an instance could be disruptive to the ecosystem, with various services accepting transactions on the invalid fork that will be lost when the valid fork overtakes it.

If for some reason you can't upgrade before activation it would be best to make sure your node(s) connect to the public network exclusively via an upgraded node so the upgraded node will act as a bad block filter.  This works for mining too, since older standard software won't introduce invalidity, only follow it if someone else introduces it.

If you can't even do that but are actively accepting payments, then you should require more confirmations before considering a transaction irreversible.  An extra ten might be a good starting point, depending on how quickly you'd respond do an incident.

If you're not accepting payments it's less critical to upgrade, but its still good to do so that your node can participate in helping the propagation of valid blocks and not propagating invalid blocks.

(*) A number of large miners engage in validationless mining-- they will mine empty blocks after a block without validating it. So confirmation by a string of empty or nearly empty blocks shouldn't treated as confirmation.  The emptyness is actually not a fundamental property but its easiest to implement that way so for now its a reasonable indicator that the miner hasn't actually validated anything.

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May 03, 2021, 05:06:37 AM
 #222

In many prior activations at some point after the rules became active some broken miner managed to mine a rule violating block and some other miners who weren't broken but were just not updated yet produced blocks that continued after the invalid one.

Everyone who is updated, including correctly upgraded miners*, will just ignore those blocks like they never happened.  So the invalid block and its descendants will all become stale blocks.

If you aren't upgraded you may see confirmations that go away during such an events, and if you're a miner and not upgraded you will lose money by mining on a doomed fork during such an event.

If *many* people don't upgrade such an instance could be disruptive to the ecosystem, with various services accepting transactions on the invalid fork that will be lost when the valid fork overtakes it.

If for some reason you can't upgrade before activation it would be best to make sure your node(s) connect to the public network exclusively via an upgraded node so the upgraded node will act as a bad block filter.  This works for mining too, since older standard software won't introduce invalidity, only follow it if someone else introduces it.

If you can't even do that but are actively accepting payments, then you should require more confirmations before considering a transaction irreversible.  An extra ten might be a good starting point, depending on how quickly you'd respond do an incident.

If you're not accepting payments it's less critical to upgrade, but its still good to do so that your node can participate in helping the propagation of valid blocks and not propagating invalid blocks.

Thank you for this detailed explanation! I will upgrade before activation to show my support and help the network filter out rule violating blocks.


(*) A number of large miners engage in validationless mining-- they will mine empty blocks after a block without validating it. So confirmation by a string of empty or nearly empty blocks shouldn't treated as confirmation.  The emptyness is actually not a fundamental property but its easiest to implement that way so for now its a reasonable indicator that the miner hasn't actually validated anything.

I don't quite understand this. It feels like I'm missing prerequisite knowledge about what validation is exactly. I wonder if these empty blocks become stale or are part of the official block chain, and why do miners do it. Where can I learn more so as to decipher the meaning of this?
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May 03, 2021, 05:25:12 AM
 #223

I don't quite understand this. It feels like I'm missing prerequisite knowledge about what validation is exactly. I wonder if these empty blocks become stale or are part of the official block chain, and why do miners do it. Where can I learn more so as to decipher the meaning of this?
The correct way of doing things is that the miner seeing the new block downloads that block and verifies it and updates its UTXO database. Then if it were valid the miner builds the next block on top of that valid block.

Some miners try to save a tiny amount of time by "spying" on other miners. For example they connect a fake miner to the other mining pools and as the other pool finds a new block their fake miner receives that "hash" of that block which is small (32 bytes only) then the "spy" miner builds their next block based on that hash alone without verifying if the block that was found by the other pool was valid or not (which it may not be valid and during a upgrade/fork the chances of it are higher and that would create a longer stale chain with 2 blocks in it, if more miners do the same this stale chain can become longer).

An indication of this type of mining is empty blocks because when the spy miner hasn't validated the previous block it can not update its UTXO database and doesn't know which transactions were in the previous block (and can't be in the block they mine) so they set their next block to be empty first until they update their UTXO database.

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May 03, 2021, 06:49:42 AM
 #224

I don't quite understand this. It feels like I'm missing prerequisite knowledge about what validation is exactly. I wonder if these empty blocks become stale or are part of the official block chain, and why do miners do it. Where can I learn more so as to decipher the meaning of this?
The correct way of doing things is that the miner seeing the new block downloads that block and verifies it and updates its UTXO database. Then if it were valid the miner builds the next block on top of that valid block.

Some miners try to save a tiny amount of time by "spying" on other miners. For example they connect a fake miner to the other mining pools and as the other pool finds a new block their fake miner receives that "hash" of that block which is small (32 bytes only) then the "spy" miner builds their next block based on that hash alone without verifying if the block that was found by the other pool was valid or not (which it may not be valid and during a upgrade/fork the chances of it are higher and that would create a longer stale chain with 2 blocks in it, if more miners do the same this stale chain can become longer).

An indication of this type of mining is empty blocks because when the spy miner hasn't validated the previous block it can not update its UTXO database and doesn't know which transactions were in the previous block (and can't be in the block they mine) so they set their next block to be empty first until they update their UTXO database.
I think in general, an empty block is probably the result of a miner not validating a block prior to building on top of it. However, updating the UTXO database will take precious seconds from a miner, so it is possible that a miner would have the following workflow:
*Receive block
*Validate block (2)
*start building on top of the validated block that is empty (3)
*update UTXO set
*start building on top of the validated block that contains transactions that spend from the updated UTXO set.

I also suspect that some miners may change the order of 2 and 3 depending on which pool mined the previous block.


In the past, miners have lost a lot of coin from mining on top of invalid blocks. I think most of them learned their lesson, especially considering the value of each block currently. I would expect all major pools to have Taproot rules added to their own logic, and will check Taproot rules against newly found blocks before building on top of newly found blocks, even if a miner were to decide to build on top of a block prior to validating it.
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May 03, 2021, 07:36:04 AM
 #225

I also suspect that some miners may change the order of 2 and 3 depending on which pool mined the previous block.
No, not even-- they start mining the empty block without even receiving the block by spying on the stratum output of other miners.

Quote
I think most of them learned their lesson, especially considering the value of each block currently.
That would be nice, but you can look at the published code to see it isn't so. Smiley
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May 03, 2021, 08:25:18 AM
 #226

Today on Twitter @bitcoincoreorg announced the availability of the Bitcoin Core 0.21.1 release in which the developers included a method for activating the Speedy Trial update https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/                    



Luke Dashjr’s recommended client for Taproot can be downloaded from this website, https://bitcointaproot.cc/

I believe the difference is Luke Dashjr’s recommended client goes to USAF/BIP8 if miners fail to signal 90%. Does Bitcoin Core 0.21.1 go back to BIP9 and waits for the miners again, ignoring the community?

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gmaxwell (OP)
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May 03, 2021, 08:33:19 AM
 #227

Does Bitcoin Core 0.21.1 go back to BIP9 and waits for the miners again, ignoring the community?
no? wtf.  If anyone is ignoring the community, it's luke:

https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/Bitcoin.org/pull/3667#issuecomment-830865897
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May 03, 2021, 10:06:50 AM
 #228

In other words another toxic move from Luke who apparently doesn't understand the role consensus plays in bitcoin and has no understanding of the dangers that splitting the bitcoin network has. He did the same thing in 2017 with his BIP148 while hiding the dangers of what he was advertising.

I just hope the malicious software he is advertising this time also ends up using a different user agent so that I can ban all of them easily.

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Carlton Banks
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May 03, 2021, 11:16:24 AM
 #229

I agreed (in the end) that the "good faith gesture" opening move of deploying Speedy Trial was the best option to start off BIP340-2 activation.

I'm kind of taking the same view on luke's alternative activation client; he thinks giving miners any mechanism to delay activation is a mistake. I'm sympathetic, but disagree.

Not going to get into a discussion about this though, as we've already got people attempting to create hype around it.

Vires in numeris
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May 03, 2021, 12:38:35 PM
 #230

following
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May 03, 2021, 01:43:59 PM
 #231

I don't know if some people find it more exciting when there's perceived drama, but this is just software development and economics.  It's not a meant to be a soap opera or so-called "reality television".  If you're looking for such lowly, base entertainment, there are better mediums to find that sort of thing.  We don't need to amplify every little disagreement or clash of personalities that occurs.  Discuss the technology, not the people involved.

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May 03, 2021, 07:55:20 PM
Last edit: May 03, 2021, 08:07:08 PM by xmready
 #232

Some miners try to save a tiny amount of time by "spying" on other miners. For example they connect a fake miner to the other mining pools and as the other pool finds a new block their fake miner receives that "hash" of that block which is small (32 bytes only) then the "spy" miner builds their next block based on that hash alone without verifying if the block that was found by the other pool was valid or not (which it may not be valid and during a upgrade/fork the chances of it are higher and that would create a longer stale chain with 2 blocks in it, if more miners do the same this stale chain can become longer).

Do miners do this to try and get a head start on finding the next block and getting a reward? Do these empty blocks live on the shared blockchain if they don't become stale?

If anyone is ignoring the community, it's luke

I've seen luke on reddit getting angry at laymen for not understanding complex coder concepts. Seems nice.
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May 03, 2021, 10:36:35 PM
Last edit: May 04, 2021, 01:41:33 AM by gmaxwell
 #233

I agreed (in the end) that the "good faith gesture" opening move of deploying Speedy Trial was the best option to start off BIP340-2 activation.

I'm kind of taking the same view on luke's alternative activation client; he thinks giving miners any mechanism to delay activation is a mistake. I'm sympathetic, but disagree.

Not going to get into a discussion about this though, as we've already got people attempting to create hype around it.

There are two major possibilities:

Activate a rule without hashpower enforcement which may create a second incompatible forkcoin blockchain with fair probability, causing millions of dollars cumulative cost to the part of the industry that handles third party bitcoins (exchanges, etc) when they may be forced to allow withdraws of the fork (or sued when they don't),  with high probability creates long reorgs  (>6 blocks) that will be visible to a portion of users, potentially allowing double spending theft.  Notably none of these costs are costs to miners (other than indirectly through dropping the Bitcoin price), and an additional fork gives miners the potential for greater profit (because more total coins are issued but difficulty is split).

Or have a system that waits until a super-majority hashpower will enforce the rule, so that a second competing chain cannot persist.  A consequence of this is that miners can delay activation.

Those are the choices.  The details of the parameters can influence the severity of the negative effects-- e.g. longer to upgrade can make fewer users effected by reorgs,  or a shorter activation period can reduce the maximum delay miners can cause,  but that fundamental issue remains.

If you make a non-hashpower enforcement take *years* to activate then ubiquitous enforcement by users might eliminate the forks/reorgs/etc. But in that case you've created *years* of delay instead of months of delay, so the goal of not being delayed fails.  "YOU CANT DELAY US IF WE DELAY OURSELVES!!!" Smiley


Checkout the HN taproot thread and the long discussion I had with someone who was *convinced* that taproot was going to create a spinoff chain.  The only reason it almost certainly won't is miner activation.

Now, if miners are legit blocking a deployment against the communities will, then the significant costs and risks of a forced activation may be well worth it.  Or if it's already blocked, making the forced activation happen years out wont be any more delay.  Or if the change is a non-urgent fixup, then delaying it years to begin with may not be a problem.

But if there is no particular reason to think they are going to block something, why the heck would we either add huge activation delays or the risk of splitting the chain (requiring preparatory costs, even if it doesn't happen!) just in case they might?   If they do it can be dealt with then, with the full benefit of information about how the obstruction went, how widely and quickly the users deployed the update, etc.

To give a concrete example, say we learned that 20% hashpower obstructed for no good reason and users upgraded about as fast as they normally do during an initial attempt.  Then it mike make sense to deploy with a 70% activation threshold and a flag day that activates regardless after 3 years,   This way it'll probably activate quickly with minimal disruption but users still have adequate time to upgrade before a disruptive hard cut if the blocking miners grow.   Or maybe we learn that user uptake was extremely fast for this upgrade, in which case cutting the 3 years to 2 might make sense.

So yeah, sure miners being able to delay stuff isn't good.  But you can't just wish it away, it comes with a phenomenal benefit-- one that is a competitive advantage against constantly hardforking scamcoins-- and one that allows us to activate new consensus rules much *faster*.   If we find miners actually blocking something, then the benefit may not be worth it.  Considering that plenty of users don't anticipate using any specific new feature-- so it has no benefit to them-- a potentially disruptive activation means that some otherwise desirable features would be legitimately opposed by users: why should they take cost and risk for some feature that won't benefit them?

Skipping over the miner activation only looks attractive if you ignore the costs of not using it-- Significant risk of spiting and/or destabilizing the network, years of additional delays, or both.

If you don't like delays you should prefer hashpower triggered activation, except when hashpower wont activate something quickly.  If delay isn't an issue, simply having a flag height set a few years out is probably best.

The right way to think about this is that a consensus rule upgrade naturally takes 2-5 years to do so with low risks.  Using hashpower signaling we can safely bring that down to months, but hashpower might not bother to (or active choose not to) cooperate and then we're stuck with riskier or slower approaches.

Besides,  I proposed taproot in January 2018, assuming it activates at the earliest opportunity via hashpower it'll be almost four years since I proposed it.  These folks that are now so worried about the risk of a few months of delay by miners...  Where were you all these years?   Or is delay only something you care about to the extent of angrily retweeting some hashtag and not enough to bother helping with the work to make something real?
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May 04, 2021, 02:33:58 AM
Merited by xmready (1)
 #234

Do miners do this to try and get a head start on finding the next block and getting a reward? Do these empty blocks live on the shared blockchain if they don't become stale?
Yes and Yes.
Since mining in Proof of Work is based on luck, they could get lucky in that few seconds and find a new block to get the reward before others do which is why they do it.
You can find such blocks on the blockchain, here is a block explorer link you can use to see said blocks that are empty (only have the mandatory coinbase transaction): https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/blocks?q=transaction_count(1)#

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May 04, 2021, 07:48:23 AM
 #235

+Poolin - so another 10% - up to about 35% out of the 90% of hash power needed...
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/681823

So we have 4 out of the top 10 pools signalling - probably need all of them though.
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May 04, 2021, 07:59:59 AM
 #236

From what I see at https://taproot.watch/ Antpool was not signaling it at block 681853, but it does at block 681854?!
Can we say +Antpool?

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May 04, 2021, 08:14:41 AM
 #237

Yes plus antpool!
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/000000000000000000098395525a9cedb2d58fec5e99335d778d96663c16cf9d

That is a big one as they could have blocked it...

So over 50% now - just need the 5 mid-sized pools and done.
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May 04, 2021, 04:03:23 PM
 #238

Good, with Antpool onbard we'll get there eventually. Jimmy Song predicts we'll have it activated by Thanksgiving; what do y'all think? Before or after?
I can't wait for improved fungibility, better tx speed, increasingly difficult analytics and indistinguishable transactions.
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May 05, 2021, 09:49:54 AM
Last edit: May 05, 2021, 05:40:37 PM by Carlton Banks
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), pooya87 (1)
 #239

I can't wait for improved fungibility, better tx speed, increasingly difficult analytics and indistinguishable transactions.

this case is overstated


it's only going to be the 'base case'/'cooperative case' that will become indistinguishable, e.g. Lightning channel opening transactions and cooperatively closed channels, because Schnorr "additivity" (which is not a real word Tongue) makes such transactions appear the same as a regular [1 (or more) inputs -> 2 outputs] tx, because there is only 1 aggregated signature (because additive signatures, despite 2 parties signing the tx). Currently, spending outputs from that kind of transaction reveals it to be a 2 of 2 multisig that had alternate script paths, not so with the same tx script using Taproot/schnorr.

But, uncooperative closes are still distinguishable from regular [1+ in -> 2 out] transactions, because of the atypical script they use will (necessarily) be revealed if they are broadcast/confirmed in a block. I know, uncooperative channel closures are not common, but they will still sometimes happen when using Taproot/schnorr based channels/contracts.

And so, all other atypical scripts will still be distinguishable from regular transactions too. It's just nice that the construction of many contracts involve using the [1+ in -> 2 out] regular pattern as their base case.

Vires in numeris
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May 05, 2021, 10:41:42 AM
 #240

Possibly another stupid question from me here, but can the Lightning Network then be leveraged as a use case for tumbling/mixing/hiding our UTXOs after the upgrade?

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